Socialism-the BIGGEST plight/failure to this world, EVER.

[JakeStarkey]

Neo, you brought up the equivalence thing. Statism is pretty much what you say it is, and I agree that all the major governments of the 20th century are statist. Where is your issue with that?

 

[(R)IGHTeous 1]

Anymore comedic routines Starkeytroll? Or are you done for the day?

Anymore facts to run from? Words to twist?

I got an idea. Why don't you keep up with your keyboard diarrhea a lil longer. I'm compiling a very amusing list of your retarded posts that I think I just may showcase......

You are a liar, kiddo, period, whom I will have no trouble unmasking. S/he is fun to kick around.

^^Typical petty insults, spamming/trolling^^of said mental disorder.

 

[WillowTree]

Yep the Nazi must be socialist because they have it in their name.Next you'll make the jump to Nazis were liberals.

Liberals that hate liberty, freedom, individual responisblility.

Black is white, up is down.

Your world.

Are you saying the Nazi's mis named themselves? Really?

 

[Wry Catcher]

A little definition always helps.

Socialism: State ownership of the means of production. The nationalization of all land and minerals, public transportation, trade, banking and factories - with profits going to the people as a whole rather to capitalists or landlords.

Financial Capitalism: Profits are derived from the investment of money.

Anarchism: The support of no system of government; the belief that government controls, regulations and authority are oppressive.

Economics: The study of the ways in which people make a living; the study of human wants and their satisfaction; the science of production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services.

Basic agents of production in the market system: Land (natural resources); Labor (human effort); Capital (the physical necessities for production - buildings, maqchinery, tools, equipment and supplies).

Management (to plan, coordinate and direct production).

Now put the emotion aside, stop posting unproven axioms which you hear but can't explain, and post your own theory of economics which best fits the culture of our nation.

My guess is the vast number of Americans would choose a mixed economy. Not laissez faire capitalism, not government control of the means of production, but a pragmatic approach to satisfying the needs and wants of our people.

Should add

Statism- concentration of controls and planning in the hands of a highly centralized government often extending to government ownership of industry. Sovereignty is vested not in the people but in the national state, and that all individuals and associations exist only to enhance the power, the prestige, and the well-being of the state

Crony Capitalism- A description of capitalist society as being based on the close relationships between businessmen and the state. Instead of success being determined by a free market and the rule of law, the success of a business is dependent on the favoritism that is shown to it by the ruling government in the form of tax breaks, government grants and other incentives.


My guess is the vast number of Americans would NOT choose either of the above, but a pragmatic approach to satisfying the needs and wants of our people.

And I might have added Plutocracy as the end result of a system of unregulated capitalism, or Oligarchy, another anti-republican form of government.

 

[Neotrotsky]

Neo, you brought up the equivalence thing. Statism is pretty much what you say it is, and I agree that all the major governments of the 20th century are statist. Where is your issue with that?

You believe the US is statist?

 

[Neotrotsky]

Yep the Nazi must be socialist because they have it in their name.Next you'll make the jump to Nazis were liberals.

Liberals that hate liberty, freedom, individual responisblility.

Black is white, up is down.

Your world.

Are you saying the Nazi's mis named themselves? Really?

Willow

This guy cam up with a good one

Do you think Hitler could have rounded up 6,000,000 people and killed them all in the 5 or so years with a small and limited government??

Prove that he did with a small and limited government and I will agree with you that Facism is a conservative ideology.....

 

[QUENTIN]

Tally up ALL those killed by the far-left Socialist regimes of Hitler...

And you've already lost me.

Sounds like someone's been reading too much Jonah Goldberg and not enough history or political philosophy.

I can't be arsed to read all 13 pages at the moment so this may have been covered, but perhaps I can lend a hand.

So, the definition of "leftist" politics is support for social change to create a more egalitarian society. A "far-leftist" then is one who supports total or near-total equality.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/leftism

The regimes you're describing, from Hitler to Stalin to Mao are totalitarian. Totalitarian society, regardless of its stated ideological basis, creates incredible disparities in status, power, rights, etc. and is extremely hierarchical and authoritarian, therefore extremely unequal and diametrically opposed to egalitarian societies. Therefore the opposite of leftist.

Totalitarianism and authoritarianism has claimed millions, no doubt, but regardless of your degree of distaste for socialism, they aren't socialist.

Socialism is an economic and political theory advocating public or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources. A socialist society is characterized by a free association, which is not based on coercive wage labor. It is organized on the basis of relatively equal power relations, self-management, collective decision-making and adhocracy rather than hierarchical, bureaucratic forms of organization in the economic and political systems.

None of your examples even remotely meet that mold, instead association and labor is forced and coercive, power relations are unequal, decision-making comes from a powerful state directed at its citizenry rather than by the citizenry, and hierarchical, bureaucratic forms of organization abound.

You may have another beef with socialism, but this beef is with totalitarianism.

This is the second time today you've demonstrated how desperately you need to immerse yourself in some book learning. I'd recommend a library, but I'm afraid you'd think it's socialist. Assuming those Anonymous hackers stopped their denial of service attacks, I can recommend Amazon.com as a good resource for educating yourself. Borders also has a delicious pumpkin-flavored iced coffee this time of year if that's more your thing.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Love it. UnrighteousOne is trying to argue that "socialism" killed more folks that "capitalism" in the 20th century. As if capitalism is a righteous economic system? Hitler was allied with the capitalists in his country. The big business men loved him! Does s/he not know capitalism raped Africa, Asia, and the Americas in the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries? UnRighteousOne needs to understand that is is Man who uses socialism, capitalism, and any other ism for good or ill.

If ever there was an argument to clarify why my Lord and Master instructed His followers to give to Caesar and to God what belonged to each, UnRighteousOne has demonstrated it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Prove that he did with a small and limited government and I will agree with you that Facism is a conservative ideology.....

Prove to me that the western democracies and the USSR could have defeated the fascists and the militarists with small and limited government, I will agree with you that somehow "statism" is awful, evil, and of the devil.

 

[Neotrotsky]

Prove that he did with a small and limited government and I will agree with you that Facism is a conservative ideology.....

Prove to me that the western democracies and the USSR could have defeated the fascists and the militarists with small and limited government, I will agree with you that somehow "statism" is awful, evil, and of the devil.

Oh I see, statism is good but only in the right hands. Is that like "we can make Communism work, this time"


Of course you overlook, it was statism that allowed Nazism to pursue their evil desires.



So whats your argument now- Since we needed statism to defeat Nazis, we should keep doing it?


Jake, even the US Constitution allows for Marshall law, these kind of actions are always meant to be temporary.

Of course, using your logic - Hey Since Lincoln suspended habeas corpus during the war and couldn't win the war without it, we should keep doing it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Neo, you are the one making and changing OPs and definitions. I don't care that you do, but you are not making any sense. Do you dislike big government? Apparently so. OK. You are arguing that since we could not defeat Hitler without using that system then we should let Hitler win. Not making much sense, Neo.

 

[G.T.]

I'd say that the biggest failure to this world, ever, was human beings.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I'd say that the biggest failure to this world, ever, was human beings.

Thanks. Yes, that is true.

 

[Neotrotsky]

Neo, you are the one making and changing OPs and definitions. I don't care that you do, but you are not making any sense. Do you dislike big government? Apparently so. OK. You are arguing that since we could not defeat Hitler without using that system then we should let Hitler win. Not making much sense, Neo.

I have been consistent throughout.....

Not at all, I am calling out your "moral equivalence" argument e.g. I kill in war- so I can kill all the time

Gov't actions during war times are temporary and never meant to be permanent . Even Rome would use a Dictator for short times, then he would step down. (of course, over time that tradition was broken)

Note as well the major difference between Germany's Fascism and the US gov't, theirs was by design a permanent statist system and our use of more gov't control was understood to be a temporary action to complete the war.

Again, the common "denominator" in all evils of gov't is statism. It is also the common thread in Fascism, Communism and Socialism

When the state is supreme to individual rights, man will lose in the long run.

Your avoidance on the issue shows me that is the "achilles heel" of your tendency to be accepting of more and more gov't intervention or your desire to defend socialism.


You may believe that statism in the "right" hands can be controlled and contained- I do not. Germany was a "Democracy" that put Hitler into power and we see how that turned out.

You may believe that statism will allow for a more equitable distribution of resources- I do not. Inevitably, they deteriorate into crony capitalist states where claims of equality ring hollow on the realities of the day. It becomes like the classic "Animal Farm", where we are all equal; some are just more equal than others.

Even now, you see bits and pieces with things like Congress excluding itself from PapaObama Care; Waivers for companies etc.


We just agree to disagree, my friend- that is all.

 

[jillian]

youre confusing socialist regimes with socialist ideas. we are the US already employ many socialist ideas into our version of democracy.

Social Security
Medicare
Education
Unemployment Insurance
The School Breakfast Program
Disability Insurance
Jails
The VA
Firefighters
Police
USPS

If we were to become a true "free-market" society. none of these programs would exist, and we would have to pay for all of these services.

if that be the case, are we prepared to pay for fire fighters to come to our homes if they are burning, the police to come to our businesses if someone is stealing, the jails to house the criminals of society, the primary education of all of our children?

to eliminate all social programs, would mean yes we may get to keep more of our money in our own pocket on our paycheck, but it would also mean that we would be spending 10 times that in the basic services that our tax provide for.

the reality is that a perfect society has elements of capitalism *and* socialism. how much of each is something that is up for discussion, obviously.

but it is easy for some to refuse to think and instead just recite the same old same old by rote.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Neo, you know better to call me on "moral equivalence". You are insisting that all "statist" governments are somehow evil. Grant that I say you are right. Would you agree that American and Great Britain were "less evil statists" governments employing fire to defeat fire? And where have I ever indicated that I thought "statism will allow for a more equitable distribution of resources"?

We are far closer in thought then I think you realize. I recognize the depraved nature of mankind, in which we all participate. That is why I jumped MDN so fiercely: we have enough depravity without lying or false imputation. Then there are Righteous1 and bigrebnc and all the other foul people who would hurt others if they could get away it.

However, yes, I can agreeably disagree with you, my friend.

 

[MaggieMae]

MaggieMae wrote:

The "common" good of the pure white Christian German people, you idiot. If anything, "Socialism" embraces all races, all creeds, because it's primary focus is on EQUALITY. What part of that simple definition is escaping your infinite wisdom, genius?

Annnnnd this debate is over. You've just lost any and ALL credibility. The socialist regimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc were totally bout tolerance and civil rights! Yeeeea!

Sweetie, Ima tell you what I told the other wacko far lefties here. Crack. Pipe. Down.

Or you can remain toasted and actually, futilely try to argue that Hitler nationalized not 1 thing, and did nothing even remotely socialist while in power. If anything, @ the VERY LEAST, he was more lefty socialist than righty capitalist.

Or, as predictable as you'll likely be, you provide more lolz and try to argue that NONE of the regimes I just listed were actually socialist @ all, and describe your commie utopia in detail.....rewriting its definition and history to suit your crazyness.....

You're dead wrong, smartass. You might tune into the History Channel tomorrow night and Wednesday night for a two-part series "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich," beginning at 9PM Eastern for a total of four hours. I was going to recommend the book, which I read in college, but it's about the size and weight of a Webster's dictionary, so I know you wouldn't attempt it. Let me warn you, though, the truth shall set you free (but not before it totally pisses you off).

 

[MaggieMae]

Jake,

just because it is fun to get you all , in the words of Papa Obama, "wee-wee-ed up"

What political leader said:

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions."

You are SUCH an ignorant person. Hitler woo'd the German people by making them THINK he was one of them. Good God, man, WOULD YOU FUCKING READ SOME HISTORY????

Well the question was for Jake

I hear you. Next I will think that you can't use school vouchers at Sidwell



You assume a lot in your answer. You must be one of those that bought the "Hope and Change" hook line and sinker





Since you like to answer questions for other people


you would agree that a Socialist or a Fascist or a Communist state are all forms of Statisim?

While you are at it

You have never answered
Why Papa Obama wants to deny poor black children from going to the same schools as his children?

He reversed is decision on the DC vouchers. So? But that doesn't mean the debate over the effectiveness of the voucher system really works, because not ALL children are lucky enough to attend better schools. You can read all the pros and cons here.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/08/AR2009050803546.html

 

[MaggieMae]

Do you think Hitler could have rounded up 6,000,000 people and killed them all in the 5 or so years with a small and limited government??

Prove that he did with a small and limited government and I will agree with you that Facism is a conservative ideology.....

Ironically, the mere fact that he murdered 6 million Jews and countless others who were not pure German caucasians, or retarded or physically unfit for his new army hardly attests to the misconception that Hitler was a "Socialist." Socialism's primary tenet is equality for all.

 

[MaggieMae]

MaggieMae wrote:

All you did was ramble on bout what constitutes a German citizen or not, you even helped my case by pointing out what else was done for the "common good"

I could further humiliate you by reminding you that Hitler, and his Germany were no Christians, as he saw himself God, and killed or jailed clergy who disagreed + oh I dunno, killing millions upon millions of Christ's people, but thanks anyway for providing further humor.

It's common knowledge that Hitler implemented those practices I mentioned, your spam doesn't change that.

The "common" good of the pure white Christian German people, you idiot. If anything, "Socialism" embraces all races, all creeds, because it's primary focus is on EQUALITY. What part of that simple definition is escaping your infinite wisdom, genius?

EQUALITY huh?

Is that like when your kids can go to private school while you deny poor black kids from going there as well?

Is that like when members of Congress exclude themselves from PapaObama Care?

Do you really think the politicians' friends and family are going to have the same doctor as you?


If you do then I have some "Hope and Change" to sell you


Socialism spreads misery equally for those outside the "inner party"

Indeed, we will all be equal some will just be more equal than others



Did you know Stalin killed more of his own people than Hitler? (something tells me you didn't)

Members of Congress are NOT excluded from the health care bill. You are so unread, and unprepared to make even CURRENT arguments, it's unbelievable. Rather than coming to a message board and bloviating on subjects you obviously are either glaringly incorrect about, or certainly on subjects you've paid little attention to, you should spend at least half that wasted time educating yourself.