ThoughtCrimes
Old Navy Vet
You stated the following in your post to which I am responding;
"Their weapons weren't illegal, moron. So once again you have your facts wrong." [Emphasis Mine]
First, before you try to derail the point of this post and wiggle out from under your ignorance, I agree that the BATF and the FBI were both out of control and that Reno should have been sacked by Clinton. That is an obvious given. The topic is your assertion about the Davidians possessing only legal arms.
However, you are dead fucking wrong about the weapons store of the Davidians. The following is from a Treasury Dept. press release dated Jul 13, 1995;
"The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms investigated David Koresh for conduct involving: the illegal manufacture of machine guns and the illegal manufacture and possession of destructive devices. The FBI report provides evidence that the Davidians' arsenal did indeed include weapons unlawfully manufactured. The weapons listed include semiautomatic firearms illegally modified to fire in full automatic mode, as well as grenades and silencers. All of these weapons were unlawfully possessed." [Emphasis Added] < Department Of Treasury Memorandum | Waco - The Inside Story | FRONTLINE | PBS >
Your assertion that the weapons WERE NOT illegal is false, in error, WRONG!
The local Sherrif said their weapons were all legal. At that time the Treasury Department was the parent organization of the BATF. If you believe them, then you are terminally gullible.
Carol Moore: Waco Questions Congress Refuses to Answer
The Department of Justice would not allow a company chosen by House investigators to independently test the Davidians' guns to see if they really are illegal machine guns, or if the FBI was falsely claiming this. It then claimed the Department could not afford to independently test them. Considering recent findings of faulty FBI lab work, and even evidence of fabrication of evidence, this FBI allegation, which has led to 140 year sentences for six Davidians, must be independently verified.
The local Sherriff "SAID" their weapons were legal? Did the Sherriff verify that in a sworn report and if so where is the report? Where is the Sherriff's confirmation or denial that the Davidians either had or didn't have explosives and grenades as the FBI confirmed? For that matter, where is any mention of explosives or grenades from that fly by night group you cited, the Committee for Waco Justice?
I know you ubber right bat shit crazy neoconservatives never, ever admit you're errors, but for Christ's sake, if you can't provide solid evidence of falsification of the FBI report about what was recovered, then your argument FAILED! Since your argument FAILED, that is evidence that you are WRONG! You're pissing into the wind again and getting wet and smelly!
The FBI refused to allow independent verification of their so-called "findings." It then claimed it could not afford to independently verify them. Does that sound the slightest bit suspicious to you?
So tell us, Mr. Waco expert, where is the evidence that they weren't legal? Are there any sworn affidavits that they weren't? Is there a report from any forensics lab showing they weren't legal? Is there any published evidence that there were explosives in the Waco compound? What about the warrant? Has that ever been published? Oh, that's right, it was sealed by the same judge who issued it.
Even if you could produce all this evidence, which you can't, would that justify slaughtering dozens innocent women and children?
The FBI and the ATF have been caught contradicting themselves and making incriminating statements countless times. Their explanations just don't add up.
Keep in mind that all the Waco defendants were declared "not guilty" by a jury of their peers. You have to be a special kind of bootlicker not to notice the unholy stench rising from this case.
BTW, the local sheriff visited the compound on several occasions because of complaints he had received. He was allowed to walk right into the building without any shots being fired. He inspected their weapons on these occasions and deemed them legal.
All any reasonable person needs to determine the right of the question is to read this press release below and go to the link at the bottom to see the extensive list of weapons gathered at the site. The Texas Dept. of Public Safety was involved in collecting the weapons store and asked the FBI forensics folks to do the laboratory analysis.
The Memorandum:
"July 13, 1995
MEMORANDUM TO THE PRESS
FROM: Chris Peacock, Director of Public Affairs
SUBJECT: Weapons Possessed by the Branch Davidians
Enclosed are a set of photographs of items recovered from the Branch Davidian compound and a document listing weapons the group possessed. The photographs were exhibits presented at the trial of eleven Branch Davidians in January and February of 1994 in San Antonio, Texas. The summary document, prepared by the Department of the Treasury, sets forward the findings of the FBI laboratory analysis of the recovered weapons. The FBI prepared the analysis at the request of the prosecution team and the Texas Department of Public Safety, which was responsible for collecting the evidence at the crime scene. The FBI experts' findings were presented at trial in January 1994. Copies of the FBI report are available upon request.
The photographs make clear that the Davidians possessed an extensive arsenal. The first photograph displays some of the hundreds of weapons recovered from the compound. The second photograph "government exhibit 594" presents a portion of the ammunition rounds that were destroyed by heat ("cooked off") and found in an interior bunker; the pile in the photograph is approximately 5 feet high, 20 feet long, and 12 to 14 feet wide. The cooked-off ammunition is being shoveled into a Bob Cat front-loader in "government exhibit 593." "Government exhibit 599" shows one of the live hand grenades found on the premises.
In total, the Texas Department of Public Safety, led by the Texas Rangers, recovered more than 300 firearms from the Branch Davidian compound. In addition, a number of live grenades and more than 300 grenade components were uncovered. Hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammunition were also seized.
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms investigated David Koresh for conduct involving: the illegal manufacture of machine guns and the illegal manufacture and possession of destructive devices. The FBI report provides evidence that the Davidians' arsenal did indeed include weapons unlawfully manufactured. The weapons listed include semiautomatic firearms illegally modified to fire in full automatic mode, as well as grenades and silencers. All of these weapons were unlawfully possessed.
I hope you find these documents useful as you review Treasury's report on ATF's role in events at Waco." [Emphasis Added]
< Department Of Treasury Memorandum | Waco - The Inside Story | FRONTLINE | PBS >
You offer NOTHING to rebut any of this documented evidence with verifiable documentation of your own. I could give a shit less about your straw man pleadings, they are nothing other than your usual dance to derail the topic!
For you to imply that the Treasury Dept, the ATF, the FBI, the Texas Dept. of Public Safety and the Texas Rangers all got together and conspired to do a massive coverup of all the facts regarding the weapons at the compound without a single shred of evidence to backup that bullshit tale is really fucking stupid of you! You are wrong. Deal with it dumb ass. YOU FAIL AGAIN!!!!
Below is the full weapons list taken from the Davidian compound by the Texas Dept. of Public Safety and the Texas Rangers.
WEAPONS RECOVERED FROM THE BRANCH DAVIDIAN COMPOUND: TREASURY SUMMARY OF REPORT PREPARED BY THE FBI FOR PROSECUTORS AND THE ILLEGAL WEAPONS RECOVERED
Machine Guns
The FBI determined that 46 semiautomatic firearms had been modified to fire in full automatic mode:
22 M-16 Type Rifles
20 AK-47 Type Rifles
2 Heckler and Koch SP-89
2 M-11/Nine
The FBI also determined that two AR-15 lower receivers had been modified to fire in full automatic mode.
Silencers
21 Sound suppressors or silencers
Hand Grenades
4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades
The possession of lawfully manufactured machineguns, silencers, or grenades requires the owner to register the weapon with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms. None of the compound's residents were registered to own such a weapon, therefore it would have been illegal for them to possess these weapons.
WEAPONS RECOVERED FROM THE BRANCH DAVIDIAN COMPOUND: TREASURY SUMMARY OF REPORT PREPARED BY THE FBI FOR PROSECUTORS AND THE TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY
TOTAL WEAPONS RECOVERED
(Including Weapons Mentioned on Previous Page)
FIREARMS
Rifles and Rifle Components
61 M-16 Type and 2 M-16 Lower Receivers
61 AK-47 Type
34 AR-15 Type and 2 AR-15 Lower Receivers
13 Shotguns -- 12 gauge
11 7.62MM FN FAL Type
10 Mini-14 Type
7 37mm. Flare Gun/Launcher Type
6 .30 Carbine Calber US Carbine, Model M1
6 Assorted Rifles
5 M-11/Nine
5 M-14 Type
3 Galil
2 Heckler and Koch SP-89
1 Air Rifle
1 Heckler and Koch MP-5
1 Sten submachine gun
Pistols and Revolvers
23 Beretta
13 Glock
8 Assorted Revolvers
6 Safari Arms
6 Assorted Pistols
5 Sig Sauer
5 Walther
2 Taurus
EXPLOSIVES
Hand Grenades
4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades
100+ Modified M-21 Practice Hand Grenade bodies; the bodies of these had been threaded and plugged but lacked a main charge or fusing system.
11 M-69 Practice Hand Grenades; the bodies of these grenades exhibited indications of attempted modifications.
219 Grenade Safety Pins
243 Grenade Safety Levers
Rifle Grenades
200+ Inert M31 Practice Rifle Grenades.
FIREARMS ACCESSORIES AND PARTS
Silencers
21 Sound suppressors and silencers.
Flash Suppressors
18 Flash Suppressors.
Firearms Barrels
17 M-16/AR-15 Type (5.56 mm)
8 M-16/AR-15 Type (9mm caliber)
3 M-16/AR-15 Type (.45 ACP caliber)
1 M-16/AR-15 Type (5.56 mm)
2 Ruger. 22 Caliber
1 M-60 machine gun
1 12 Gauge Shotgun
1 Taurus, Model 92, 9mm pistol barrel
1 Sig Sauer 9mm pistol barrel
Pistol Slides
1 Sig Sauer Model
Revolver Parts
1 .38 Special caliber cylinder
Bolt Carriers
39 M-16
24 AR-15
2 MP-5
2 AK-47
1 FAL
1 Unknown
Bolts
15 AK-47
7 .22 LR conversion
3 M-16/AR-15
1 FN FAL (1)
Bolt Assemblies
3 M-11/Nine
2 M-16
1 AR-15
1 MAC-10
1 Shotgun
Recoil Springs and Guides
3 Glock
2 Sig Sauer
1 Beretta
1 M-11/Nine
Stripper Clips
29 Stripper Clips
Accessories
6 .22 LR Caliber Conversion Kits
Hammers
31 AK-47
18 M-16
12 AR-15
4 M-11/Nine
2 Sig Sauer
1 Beretta
Hammer Springs
3 AK-47
Buffer/Recoil Springs
36 M-16/AR-15
4 AK-47
Selector Switches
9 M-16
3 AR-15
1 Unknown
Sears
1 M-11/Nine
Auto Sears
8 AK-47
4 M-16
1 FN FAL
Auto Sear Springs
12 AK-47
Disconnects
7 AK-47
1 M-16
Trigger/Trigger Mechanisms/Trigger Housings
17 M-16
6 AR-15
3 M-60
3 M-11/Nine
2 MP-5
2 Sten
1 AK-47
1 Heckler & Koch
1 M-14
1 Smith & Wesson
1 Beretta
1 Shotgun
Ammunition Magazines
289 7.62 x 39mm AK-47 Type
248 .223/5.56 mm M-16/AR-15 Type
108 Sten Gun Type
88 .308 Caliber FN FAL Type
72 M-14 Type
61 Beretta Model Type 92
58 .308 Caliber of Unkown Type
28 Ruger Mini-14 Type
22 .22 Caliber
17 UZI Type
16 USAS-12 Type
13 .45 Caliber
11 Glock
11 MP-5
11 Sig Sauer P226/P228
9 Unknown Type
7 .308 Caliber Galil Type
6 Walther PPK
5 9mm Unknown Type
4 .50 Caliber
3 .30 Caliber U.S. Carbine
3 .380 Auto Caliber
2 9mm Smith & Wesson
1 AK-74 Type
1 Grendel
Ammunition Containers
220 Metal Boxes (Various Calibers)
15 Wooden Boxes (Various Calibers)
4 Buckets (Various Calibers)
1 Cardboard Boxes (Various Calibers)
Magazine Springs
360 M-16/AR-15
42 FN FAL .308 Caliber Type
35 AK-47
28 9mm Magazine Springs of Unknown Type
15 Unknown
10 M-14
6 M-1 Carbine
3 .50 Caliber
1 Mini-14 Magazine
1 Glock
These lists do not include dozens of other items recovered from the Compound such as dust covers, extractors, front and rear sights, gun cleaning equipment, bolt release levers, compensators, .50 caliber belt links and numerous other parts.
Since the FBI destroyed all the evidence, why should anyone believe your list?
The Government decided to attack the group's compound based on the accusations of 2 individuals with documented ulterior motives: a minor local official engaged in a bitter custody fight with a Davidian, who's self serving accusations of child abuse had already been investigated and rejected; and a disgruntled ex-Davidian who was expelled from the cult after a failed attempt to take over control. The custody fight that some say was the root cause of the whole tragedy became moot when the children burned to death in the inferno.
The compromised witnesses claimed that the Davidians possessed some illegal gun parts. Note that none of the group's guns were ever proven to be illegal, nor had they been using their legal guns in an illegal manner. The "huge stockpile of weapons" - proclaimed in bold headlines in an obvious attempt to manipulate public opinion against the victims - totaled fewer than one firearm per resident. Clearing away all the spin control and distortions, the official justification for the deadly assault was the minor technical violation of possessing some pieces of metal formed in illegal shapes. For this 80 innocent citizens were terrorized for an extended period and ultimately killed by agents of their government.
Questions for Congress About Waco
** There have been frequent allegations that BATF converts legal semiautomatic weapons to illegal ones in order to score convictions. BATF/FBI needed to find such weapons to excuse the deaths of 82 Davidians and four BATF agents.
** That is why many suspect BATF and the FBI falsely claim that after the fire they found 48 automatic weapons, four live grenades and twenty metal tubes they labeled "silencers." These agencies have proved to no one outside of law enforcement that Davidian guns were illegally converted. Nor have they proved the grenades were live or the metal tubes were silencers.
** When a Davidian gun expert tried to look at the weapons, he only was allowed to do so through thick plastic, which would make it difficult to see if the changes had been made or if they had been done before or after the fire.
** While several agents alleged they heard automatic gun fire coming out of Mount Carmel, prosecutors could not provide such evidence in video tape or in vehicles shot at by Davidians. If Davidians had used such weapons, they would have done much more damage to vehicles and killed many more agents.
** Prosecutors put on the stand a Davidian woman with little weapons experience to testify a deceased Davidian told her some weapons were automatic. (A Davidian man with little experience told a grand jury that because some guns had three switch positions he assumed they were automatic. He was told a grenade in his possession was live but did not know if this was true.)
** Prosecutors did not prosecute or call to the stand a Davidian mechanical engineer who both the woman at trial and BATF agents in affidavits had identified as being possibly involved in converting weapons. This suggests the engineer had no credible evidence Davidians converted weapons.
The Tragedy at Waco
H. Lack of Evidence of Illegal Weapons at Mount Carmel Center
Overall, most of the allegations made in the affidavit by BATF's Aguilera, especially regarding the initial investigation, focused on Koresh during June-July 1992, dealt with the possibility that Koresh might have enough items to make hand grenades or other destructive devices, and had an interest in owning machineguns, and had some_but apparently not all_of the parts needed for the conversion. Most of the affidavit's discussion of the acquisition of guns and parts suggested there was something wrong with the ownership of a large number of firearms per se, a view contrary to judicial decision (United States v. Anderson, 885 F.2d 1248 [5th Cir. 1989]) and federal statute (Firearms Owners' Protection Act of 1986, paragraph 1). Some of the firearms parts identified in the affidavit could have been used in either semi-automatic or full-auto firearms; some were clearly semi-automatic, and duly purchased from licensed dealers. The only identified hand grenades were inert, since they were only hulls. So far as the affidavit's identification, no item listed as having been purchased by Koresh or his associates was purchased unlawfully, nor was it necessarily to be used unlawfully.
Since the search warrant for machineguns named Mount Carmel Center, it is significant that most deliveries of gun parts went to the Mag Bag, not to the Center. (Aguilera, 1993:2, 4-6) Although some attempts at delivery to the Mag Bag led to actual delivery to the compound, there is no specification of any particular firearms parts being sent to the Center. The Mag Bag could have been searched rather easily, with little threat to others, since there were rarely many men there, and no reports of women or children. To the extent the affidavit established probable cause to search any place for machineguns, it was the Mag Bag and not Mount Carmel Center.17
For the most part, the affidavit indicated a belief that Koresh unlawfully converted firearms to full-auto because (a) he wanted machineguns, (b) had firearms which had been identified as machineguns by persons with no knowledge of firearms, and (c) had the capability of manufacturing destructive devices, although there is no allegation in the affidavit that Koresh wanted to make hand grenades.18 Significantly, there was virtually no effort made to determine whether machineguns or destructive devices might be lawfully owned. The only check of BATF registration records was conducted in June 1992 and included only two names, neither of which was that of "David Koresh." And there were dozens of other adults living at Ranch Apocalypse. It has been reported that "a computer check run on all known Branch Davidians revealed one male cultist had legally purchased a .50-caliber machinegun within the past two years from a Class III dealer [one federally licensed to deal in machineguns] in Tulsa, Oklahoma. The gun dealer reportedly told authorities the buyer was legitimate and had paid a $200 transfer tax required to purchase a Class III weapon." (Pate, 1993a:50) Another, related rumor, in law-enforcement circles, is that the machinegun was not at the compound, having been sent to Oklahoma for repairs, with_as required by federal law for interstate transportation_written permission from BATF. That the sources are not necessarily reliable does not alter the fact that apparently BATF ran no checks on most of the adults, and ran no name checks between June 1992 and the February 25, 1993, affidavit.
The Tragedy at Waco
IV. The Cover-Up
The government immediately began a cover-up. To prevent its completion, on the motion of attorneys for David Koresh and Steven Schneider, U.S. District Judge Walter A. Smith, Jr., ordered that all BATF audiotapes and videotapes of the raid on Ranch Apocalypse be preserved, not trusting BATF, under the circumstances, to determine which were_and only to save those_exculpatory. (Order, April 20, U.S. v. Vernon Wayne Howell, U.S. District Court for the Western District of Texas, Waco Division) But BATF refused to make public the videotape it made of the episode. (Labaton and Verhovek, 1993:20)
The BATF approached Koresh's gun dealer, Henry McMahon, and his partner Karen Kilpatrick, on March 1. They were interviewed in Florida, and later kept away from home for about two weeks, constantly admonished not to talk to the press or to the FBI. (McMahon and Kilpatrick, 1993:193-199, 205; Pate, 1993e:39-40) While a review committee was named, it was initially told not to review the actions of April 19th (Labaton, 1993b), although that quickly changed. (Labaton, 1993c) And, of course, evidence was destroyed by the FBI as part of its conduct of the negotiations with Koresh, much to the chagrin of the Texas Rangers (U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1993b:228-230) and then the Branch Davidian compound was bulldozed once the Texas Rangers, FBI, and BATF had completed their clean-up operation. While ostensibly for reasons of health, a thorough study of evidence by unbiased parties was rendered moot.
Nevertheless, as the group reviewing BATF's actions neared completion of its task, the Treasury Department sought a proposed rule "to exempt a system of records, the Waco Administrative Review Group Investigation (DO/207) from certain provisions of the Privacy Act," (58 Federal Register 43312, 08/16/93) While some law enforcement records are thus exempt, the attempt to exempt these non-law enforcement records is clearly intended to hide material from Branch Davidians, their survivors, and the public. And the National Association of Medical Examiners barred the public and the news media from part of their conference discussion regarding the Branch Davidians on the grounds that some of the information revealed might have hindered the prosecution of surviving cult members. (Mahlburg, 1993)
The Treasury and Justice Department reviews of the actions, respectively, of the BATF and FBI, amounted to cover-ups, as might have been expected when a department reviews itself. The Treasury Department review claimed there was no evidence of religious bias in the investigation (1993:121), approved the stale and unconvincing allegations of a supposed drug nexus that justified the use of National Guard helicopters, merely suggesting that the criteria for using such helicopters be made more clear (1993:16, 212), and rhetorically referred to David Koresh's firetrap as a "fortress-like compound." (1993:9) Treasury also reported that the BATF assault was met with machinegun fire (1993:101), although firearms experts who have heard videotapes of the incident have heard no such regular rapid fire.
With no supporting evidence, and despite substantial evidence, the report ignored friendly relations between Koresh and law enforcement, Treasury repeatedly asserted Koresh had the overpowering hatred of law enforcement, particularly of BATF; no supporting documentation was ever provided. (1993:8, 172) Indeed, the Justice Department review noted: "Koresh's hatred of the government did not always seem apparent. The tapes of the negotiations between Koresh and the FBI contain many lighthearted moments, and many hours of calm, peaceful conversations between Koresh and the negotiators. Koresh even proclaimed his admiration for law enforcement during some of the conversations." (U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1993b:209)
Treasury falsely asserted that probable cause was obtained, and, indeed, obtained by December (1993:8, 122), in conflict with the chronology which makes it clear any probable cause was not found until 1993 (1993:App.D-3-6) It asserts that "Neither Koresh nor any of his followers were registered owners of any M-16 machineguns, indeed, of any machineguns at all" (1993:123), even though Aguilera (1993:5) made it clear he had checked very few names for possible registration.
Treasury accurately noted that of two explosives experts consulted, one said Koresh was clearly in violation of the law, and the other said otherwise. (1993:31, 124, App.D-7-8) The Treasury report failed to note that the one asserting a violation of law incorrectly asserted that the quantities of black powder and igniter cord possessed were explosives requiring proper registration and storage, which were lacking. (1993:31, 124) That amounted to a misstatement of the law, since the quantity of blackpowder was below that requiring conformance with any storage requirement, and neither requires registration. Similarly, the assertion that possession of the blackpowder and inert grenades constitutes an explosive grenade because it is possible to make one is misleading. Not only are more materials needed, along with machinery to drill and plug a hole, but without intent, there is no violation of the law. (1993:App.B-156) So BATF in conducting its investigation, and Treasury in conducting its cover-up, both misled about what constituted a violation of the law with regard to destructive devices.
Treasury further falsely asserted that Koresh had all the materials needed to convert semi-automatic rifles to full-auto capability (1993:22-24, App. B-156), a statement in conflict with the views of Treasury's own experts (1993:App. B-164-165, App. B-182) Oddly, considering BATF had been investigating possible unlawful conversion of a semi-automatic rifle into a machinegun, one of BATF's experts opined that something should be done to inhibit the sale and conversion of semi-automatics into machineguns. (1993:App.B-113)
Are you a Truther, too? Got any really good conspiracies about area 51, the Kennedy assassination or maybe the Lusitania sinking? I bet you must have if you can believe that the Treasury Dept, the ATF, the FBI, the Texas Dept. of Public Safety and the Texas Rangers all got together and conspired to do a massive coverup of all the facts regarding the weapons at the compound, and then kept all of their stories straight for 20 years. That's right up there in the top 10 conspiracy thrillers of all time.
Of course, those confiscated weapons taken from the crime scene were destroyed after the investigations and trials were concluded. That is SOP.
Hey, ya missed a spot on the kitchen west wall with your aluminum foil protection, and THEY got a reading of your "emanations". Plus you completely forgot about your waste water and the now THEY have samples of your "precious bodily fluids". You're fucked man!
