Should The President Invoke Emergency Powers Under Article VI & the 14th Amendment..

[Soggy in NOLA]

Let me get this straight, you think a failure to come to an agreement on the budget ceiling equals an insurrection or rebellion which justifies calling out the Military? Pretty extreme isn't it? The problem concerns leadership and apparently the former community activist ain't got it.

They are not arguing over the BUDGET. This is about raising the debt ceiling, they are two different pieces of legislation/laws. The basic lack of government understanding displayed by the right wing is funny. Go study some more David Barton American "History".

It amuses me that someone who thinks that not raising the debt ceiling is the equivalent of insurrection is lecturing anyone about their understanding of the law.

No shit... Seems Mustang really is a dumb as a horse.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Well, I'm going to go and enjoy the rest of the Independence Day weekend. I shall return sometime on Tuesday. Everybody try to remember that this is a debating forum and not a place to nurse conspiracy theories.

Ciao!

Good Lord... I can't wait.

 

[Wry Catcher]

So, the premise here is that the President can basically call out the troops because Congress, who btw, holds the purse strings, won't let him spend what ever amount he wants?

How colossally stupid is this?

Mindbogglingly colossal.

Maybe I missed something. Article VI states in part, "All debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Consitution, as under the Confederaton".

Of course confederation references the Article of Confederation.

The XIV amendment states in part, the germane part, "The validity of the public dept of the United States, authorized by law, ..., shall not be questioned."

In my opinion the President of the United States is obligated to enforce all the laws of our Republic, and has within his authority the power to order the treasury to pay all legally incurred debts and obligations.

If the Congress fails in their duty, President Obama has the absolute right and absolute duty to direct the Secretary of the Treasury to pay all such debts and obligations when due. It may require the United States to sell assets, furlough employees or take other actions which may create a great deal of trouble for many Americans. Sadly, that may be the very outcome the Republican leadership desires.

I cannot see an outcome as the hysterics above seem to want, no troops will be deployed and no matial law declared. I can imagine the Dept. of Justice issuing warrants for the arrest of the Republican leadership for "Constitutional Contempt" (I know, but there is always a first time) and a court subesquently issuing an order to show cause why the leadership violated the 'law of our land'.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You're going to have to draw that line from A to B, cuz I don't see it.

Turn around and look behind you, it is there. You crossed it when you thought that the president has the power to order the military to shoot Congress.

LOL! Quantum Windbag is a perfect name for you considering that I never said, or even intimated, that the president should have the military commit any act of violence against any member of Congress.

You didn't?

Does that mean you did not link invoking emergency powers to the Insurrection Act in the OP?

...if there is no budget agreement by Aug 2nd, and the US is at risk of defaulting on its constitional obligation to pay its debts?


Insurrection Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

How do people feel about this?

Any president can't just allow the US to be held hostage to the unwillingness of Congress to meet the constitutional obligations of the US to pay our legally incurred financial obligations because Congress fails to fulfill its constitutional requirement to raise the debt ceiling in order to insure that America does not default on its debt.

Damn, you did. Do you just expect Congress to sit there and watch the tanks roll up East Capital St and piss in their pants?

 

[JimH52]

Maybe Obama should spend less time golfing and more time working on a budget that passes the Senate????

Go ahead and laugh. It will be very funny when the country defaults and interest rates go through the roof, all because your republicans walked out of negotiations. All the voters will know who to blame. They will blame the people who walked out! YOU LOSE!

 

[Wry Catcher]

Maybe Obama should spend less time golfing and more time working on a budget that passes the Senate????

Go ahead and laugh. It will be very funny when the country defaults and interest rates go through the roof, all because your republicans walked out of negotiations. All the voters will know who to blame. They will blame the people who walked out! YOU LOSE!

Please don't feed the troll. CrusaderFrank is predictably foolish, his post is a typical idiotgram. Short, stupid and spiteful.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Maybe I missed something.

You missed the part where Mustang linked not raising the debt ceiling to the president invoking emergency powers under the Insurrection Act.

Article VI states in part, "All debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Consitution, as under the Confederaton".

Of course confederation references the Article of Confederation.

Correct. And, as far as any discussion about our current debt, Article 6 is null and void, because it was designed to assure foreign governments and private individuals that the new government would honor the debts of the old one.

Mentioning it at all just proves Mustang doesn't understand English. You defending it tends to prove the same of you.

The XIV amendment states in part, the germane part, "The validity of the public dept of the United States, authorized by law, ..., shall not be questioned."

The appropriate clause says, in full, " The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void."

It was obviously written to reassure people that the US would honor all its debts from the Civil War, but would not honor the debts of the Confederacy.

Regardless, SCOTUS has held that this also applies to debts incurred after the Civil War.

In my opinion the President of the United States is obligated to enforce all the laws of our Republic, and has within his authority the power to order the treasury to pay all legally incurred debts and obligations.

I agree. That does not, however, give him the power to call out the Army if he thinks Congress is not doing its job.

If the Congress fails in their duty, President Obama has the absolute right and absolute duty to direct the Secretary of the Treasury to pay all such debts and obligations when due. It may require the United States to sell assets, furlough employees or take other actions which may create a great deal of trouble for many Americans. Sadly, that may be the very outcome the Republican leadership desires.

Actually, he has limited ability and right to do that. Congress has to authorize all spending, period. That means that the president cannot just declare that he no longer needs Congress and just start spending money and collecting taxes without any cares in the world. That would be unconstitutional.

I cannot see an outcome as the hysterics above seem to want, no troops will be deployed and no matial law declared.

I agree that no troops will be deployed. If you read through this thread you will see that I scoffed at the very notion of deploying troops because Congress does not raise the debt ceiling. Not sure why you are trying to say I am the one that is hysterical when the OP is the hysterical idiot that raised the issue in the first place.

I can imagine the Dept. of Justice issuing warrants for the arrest of the Republican leadership for "Constitutional Contempt" (I know, but there is always a first time) and a court subesquently issuing an order to show cause why the leadership violated the 'law of our land'.

That makes you almost as hysterical as the OP.

 

[Kuros]

If the Congress fails in their duty, President Obama has the absolute right and absolute duty to direct the Secretary of the Treasury to pay all such debts and obligations when due. It may require the United States to sell assets, furlough employees or take other actions which may create a great deal of trouble for many Americans. Sadly, that may be the very outcome the Republican leadership desires.

Actually, he has limited ability and right to do that. Congress has to authorize all spending, period. That means that the president cannot just declare that he no longer needs Congress and just start spending money and collecting taxes without any cares in the world. That would be unconstitutional.

Congress HAS authorized spending. It did so in the budget. How can a Congress authorize spending beyond the debt limit and then deny the Executive the ability to pay for the shortfall?

If the Obama administration issues securities to meet obligations, it does so pursuant to the budget authorized by Congress.

The debt cieling vote makes no sense insofar as Congress can decide to exceed it and then refuse to raise the cieling.

 

[blu]

Please.. please do. It will be the final nail in the Communist insurrection.

Are you saying that conservatives might rise up to try to overthrow the gov't? That would warrant the sending in of troops, which a president is perfectly within his rights to do as the head of the executive branch under the constitution AND current laws.

No, that's not at all what I said. If Obama were to do something this colossally stupid, it would render the Democrat party pointless for decades. Perhaps then the normal people who may still be Democrats will purge the party of the lunatic Marxists and Communists that have diseased the party for decades.

"marxists and communists" .. lol... those words obvioulsy have no meaning now

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The tragic irony of all this, of course, is that if the GOP were to agree to raising the debt ceiling and enter into debt reduction talks in good faith, there’s actually be real progress in reducing the deficit.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If the Congress fails in their duty, President Obama has the absolute right and absolute duty to direct the Secretary of the Treasury to pay all such debts and obligations when due. It may require the United States to sell assets, furlough employees or take other actions which may create a great deal of trouble for many Americans. Sadly, that may be the very outcome the Republican leadership desires.

Actually, he has limited ability and right to do that. Congress has to authorize all spending, period. That means that the president cannot just declare that he no longer needs Congress and just start spending money and collecting taxes without any cares in the world. That would be unconstitutional.

Congress HAS authorized spending. It did so in the budget. How can a Congress authorize spending beyond the debt limit and then deny the Executive the ability to pay for the shortfall?

If the Obama administration issues securities to meet obligations, it does so pursuant to the budget authorized by Congress.

The debt cieling vote makes no sense insofar as Congress can decide to exceed it and then refuse to raise the cieling.

What budget? There has not been a budget in over two years.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The tragic irony of all this, of course, is that if the GOP were to agree to raising the debt ceiling and enter into debt reduction talks in good faith, there’s actually be real progress in reducing the deficit.

The real tragedy is that you think the fault lies entirely on one side.

 

[Kuros]

Actually, he has limited ability and right to do that. Congress has to authorize all spending, period. That means that the president cannot just declare that he no longer needs Congress and just start spending money and collecting taxes without any cares in the world. That would be unconstitutional.

Congress HAS authorized spending. It did so in the budget. How can a Congress authorize spending beyond the debt limit and then deny the Executive the ability to pay for the shortfall?

If the Obama administration issues securities to meet obligations, it does so pursuant to the budget authorized by Congress.

The debt cieling vote makes no sense insofar as Congress can decide to exceed it and then refuse to raise the cieling.

What budget? There has not been a budget in over two years.

Are you sure about that?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Congress HAS authorized spending. It did so in the budget. How can a Congress authorize spending beyond the debt limit and then deny the Executive the ability to pay for the shortfall?

If the Obama administration issues securities to meet obligations, it does so pursuant to the budget authorized by Congress.

The debt cieling vote makes no sense insofar as Congress can decide to exceed it and then refuse to raise the cieling.

What budget? There has not been a budget in over two years.

Are you sure about that?

100%

Senate rejects budget measure containing Medicare overhaul – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs

 

[Too Tall]

...if there is no budget agreement by Aug 2nd, and the US is at risk of defaulting on its constitional obligation to pay its debts?


Insurrection Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

How do people feel about this?

Any president can't just allow the US to be held hostage to the unwillingness of Congress to meet the constitutional obligations of the US to pay our legally incurred financial obligations because Congress fails to fulfill its constitutional requirement to raise the debt ceiling in order to insure that America does not default on its debt.

The 2012 Budget is not due until Oct 1, 2011.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

...if there is no budget agreement by Aug 2nd, and the US is at risk of defaulting on its constitional obligation to pay its debts?


Insurrection Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

How do people feel about this?

Any president can't just allow the US to be held hostage to the unwillingness of Congress to meet the constitutional obligations of the US to pay our legally incurred financial obligations because Congress fails to fulfill its constitutional requirement to raise the debt ceiling in order to insure that America does not default on its debt.

I don't remember the phrase "debt ceiling" in the Constitution.
Could you please cut and paste the Section where it says Congress has a "constitutional requirement to raise the debt ceiling"? Thanks.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Maybe I missed something.

You missed the part where Mustang linked not raising the debt ceiling to the president invoking emergency powers under the Insurrection Act.

Article VI states in part, "All debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Consitution, as under the Confederaton".

Of course confederation references the Article of Confederation.

Correct. And, as far as any discussion about our current debt, Article 6 is null and void, because it was designed to assure foreign governments and private individuals that the new government would honor the debts of the old one.

Mentioning it at all just proves Mustang doesn't understand English. You defending it tends to prove the same of you.



The appropriate clause says, in full, " The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void."

It was obviously written to reassure people that the US would honor all its debts from the Civil War, but would not honor the debts of the Confederacy.

Regardless, SCOTUS has held that this also applies to debts incurred after the Civil War.



I agree. That does not, however, give him the power to call out the Army if he thinks Congress is not doing its job.



Actually, he has limited ability and right to do that. Congress has to authorize all spending, period. That means that the president cannot just declare that he no longer needs Congress and just start spending money and collecting taxes without any cares in the world. That would be unconstitutional.

I cannot see an outcome as the hysterics above seem to want, no troops will be deployed and no matial law declared.

I agree that no troops will be deployed. If you read through this thread you will see that I scoffed at the very notion of deploying troops because Congress does not raise the debt ceiling. Not sure why you are trying to say I am the one that is hysterical when the OP is the hysterical idiot that raised the issue in the first place.

I can imagine the Dept. of Justice issuing warrants for the arrest of the Republican leadership for "Constitutional Contempt" (I know, but there is always a first time) and a court subesquently issuing an order to show cause why the leadership violated the 'law of our land'.

That makes you almost as hysterical as the OP.

No, I simply "imagined", the possibility, not a liklihood; If done it would create a Constitutional Crisis and I have to wonder why the GOP is allowing its radical wing to create a climate where sane minds get backed into a corner.

We won't agree on much, but I suspect we both love this country - I seriously doubt the New Right has such affection.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Maybe Obama should spend less time golfing and more time working on a budget that passes the Senate????

Go ahead and laugh. It will be very funny when the country defaults and interest rates go through the roof, all because your republicans walked out of negotiations. All the voters will know who to blame. They will blame the people who walked out! YOU LOSE!

Pay closer attention to current events, Dear. China divested $1 TRILLION out of US Treasuries securities and only made minimal UST investment last quarter

You lost your media monopoly, peddle your bullshit on the gullible, no one here is buying

 

[Wry Catcher]

Maybe Obama should spend less time golfing and more time working on a budget that passes the Senate????

Go ahead and laugh. It will be very funny when the country defaults and interest rates go through the roof, all because your republicans walked out of negotiations. All the voters will know who to blame. They will blame the people who walked out! YOU LOSE!

Pay closer attention to current events, Dear. China divested $1 TRILLION out of US Treasuries securities and only made minimal UST investment last quarter

You lost your media monopoly, peddle your bullshit on the gullible, no one here is buying

I'm sure your hoping our economy collapses, you're not much different than a terrorist (of course they have the balls to put themeselves in harms way), any means are okay as you get your way.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Go ahead and laugh. It will be very funny when the country defaults and interest rates go through the roof, all because your republicans walked out of negotiations. All the voters will know who to blame. They will blame the people who walked out! YOU LOSE!

Pay closer attention to current events, Dear. China divested $1 TRILLION out of US Treasuries securities and only made minimal UST investment last quarter

You lost your media monopoly, peddle your bullshit on the gullible, no one here is buying

I'm sure your hoping our economy collapses, you're not much different than a terrorist (of course they have the balls to put themeselves in harms way), any means are okay as you get your way.

You should spend your time doing something constructive, like trying to suck your own dick. I understand you're growing increasingly desperate as you lose every argument but calling me a "terrorist" I'd say that was beneath you but American Progressives are the Laurentian Abyss of poor taste

In fact, it's Democrats who are Economic Jihadists who have strapped their failed Keynesian ideology to the US economy and hit the detonator.

By his own words Obama if a failed leader. The Stimulus failed. He blames economic woes on bank ATM's and airport kisoks. He's in way over his head and all he can do it rail against Boooooooosh, corporate jets and Wall Street Fat Cats who he then invites for a private dinner.

Moron.