Should Ichiro make the baseball HOF?

[rightwinger]

[

Ichiro hit the same number of HRs as Ty Cobb and many consider Cobb the best ever

Are you serious?? For his day cobb was a GREAT slugger. He led his league in SA 8 times!!

Cobbs game was closer to Ichiro than Babe Ruth

 

[JakeStarkey]

Brock was a mediocre field, a superb hitter, and a tremendous base stealer.

3000 hits, 900 steals, .293 average: yeah, he is HOF worthy

Brock a superb hitter???!!!! He was scarcely better than average. You must be 30 years behind the times and still judge hitters by BA. And he was a lousy fielder and his base stealing percentage was a mediocre 75%. He really wasn't good at anything .

I remember Lou Brock
He was a presence on the field. Beyond his stats, he drove pitchers nuts once he got on base. Threw off their rhythm, made them continually throw to first, made the players around him better

Bill James does not account for that

Brock's metrics are great. ShootSpeeders simply does not understand that stats that surround the game today.

I bet SS thinks Buster Posey is read for the HOF right now. He is not.

 

[JakeStarkey]

First ballot HOF

The man could flat out hit

Ichiro could hit SINGLES and that's about it.

He was very prolific at it.....so were many other Hall of Famers

Ichiro hit the same number of HRs as Ty Cobb and many consider Cobb the best ever

SS forgets that the decisions are based on a six tool metric for position players. Ichiro and Brock do very, very well on that metic.

 

[evenflow1969]

He probably will since he'll get the racist vote that awards all non-whites bonus points, but he's not that good. He has 3000 hits and a good BA but his walk numbers and HR numbers are very low. Just a slightly better than average hitter really. A good outfielder and a good base runner.

He's 44 now and had another poor year in 2017 and it's time to quit though he says he wants to play in 2018!!. I say no HOF for the little nip.

Listen, Liberals have targeted Asians for years.

Do you know any stars on Hollywood who are Asian? Not unless they are martial arts actors.

Do we really want to continue to allow Universities to not let Asians into college who far out perform both black and whites just because of their race?

Ichiro has more hits than Pete Rose, if you count his time in Japan, and I bet he did not prey on young teenage girls while doing it at the age of 40.

And as was said, he started in the US late. He is no doubt a Hall of Famer.

What the fuck does that have to do with the thread. Ichiro has hall of fame numbers period. This is not about dems or repugs. There is no cryin in baseball! Lets leave politics out of it too. Lets go purely on numbers. There are Holywood stars that are asian but this is a baseball thread.

 

[rightwinger]

Brock was a mediocre field, a superb hitter, and a tremendous base stealer.

3000 hits, 900 steals, .293 average: yeah, he is HOF worthy

Brock a superb hitter???!!!! He was scarcely better than average. You must be 30 years behind the times and still judge hitters by BA. And he was a lousy fielder and his base stealing percentage was a mediocre 75%. He really wasn't good at anything .

I remember Lou Brock
He was a presence on the field. Beyond his stats, he drove pitchers nuts once he got on base. Threw off their rhythm, made them continually throw to first, made the players around him better

Bill James does not account for that

Brock's metrics are great. ShootSpeeders simply does not understand that stats that surround the game today.

I bet SS thinks Buster Posey is read for the HOF right now. He is not.

All I can say was that I saw Lou Brock play and there was never any question he belonged in the HOF
I saw him in the World Series, saw the impact he had on pitchers and catchers once he got on base. He disrupted the game, took pitchers out of their comfort zone forced the other team to make mistakes

 

[evenflow1969]

Brock was a mediocre field, a superb hitter, and a tremendous base stealer.

3000 hits, 900 steals, .293 average: yeah, he is HOF worthy

Brock a superb hitter???!!!! He was scarcely better than average. You must be 30 years behind the times and still judge hitters by BA. And he was a lousy fielder and his base stealing percentage was a mediocre 75%. He really wasn't good at anything .

I remember Lou Brock
He was a presence on the field. Beyond his stats, he drove pitchers nuts once he got on base. Threw off their rhythm, made them continually throw to first, made the players around him better

Bill James does not account for that

Brock's metrics are great. ShootSpeeders simply does not understand that stats that surround the game today.

I bet SS thinks Buster Posey is read for the HOF right now. He is not.

All I can say was that I saw Lou Brock play and there was never any question he belonged in the HOF
I saw him in the World Series, saw the impact he had on pitchers and catchers once he got on base. He disrupted the game, took pitchers out of their comfort zone forced the other team to make mistakes

Lou Brock was fucking awsome. Loved that guy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MarathonMike]

Brock was a mediocre field, a superb hitter, and a tremendous base stealer.

3000 hits, 900 steals, .293 average: yeah, he is HOF worthy

Brock a superb hitter???!!!! He was scarcely better than average. You must be 30 years behind the times and still judge hitters by BA. And he was a lousy fielder and his base stealing percentage was a mediocre 75%. He really wasn't good at anything .

I remember Lou Brock
He was a presence on the field. Beyond his stats, he drove pitchers nuts once he got on base. Threw off their rhythm, made them continually throw to first, made the players around him better

Bill James does not account for that

Exactly! That is what these sabremetrics guys miss. The pressure that Brock put on the defense was huge not just on the pitcher but the middle infielders constantly having to move out of their normal positions opening holes for the hitter behind Brock. As also noted in this thread, Brock also came up big in every World Series he played in both hitting and on the bases. Getting back to Ichiro, he never had the chance to play in a WS but as a defender and all around player he compares well to Brock IMO which was why I brought him into the thread in the first place.

 

[Synthaholic]

Brock was a mediocre field, a superb hitter, and a tremendous base stealer.

3000 hits, 900 steals, .293 average: yeah, he is HOF worthy

3,000 hits is still the gold standard for Hall entry as a batter. As it should be.

 

[ShootSpeeders]

I saw him in the World Series, saw the impact he had on pitchers and catchers once he got on base. He disrupted the game, took pitchers out of their comfort zone forced the other team to make mistakes

Yes, basestealers disrupt pitchers but they also disrupt batters. Many batters don't like it when the runner on first is bouncing around. Fact is base-stealing is not an important skill and certainly not for brock who was thrown out 25% of the time.

 

[ShootSpeeders]

Brock's metrics are great. ShootSpeeders simply does not understand that stats that surround the game today.

I bet SS thinks Buster Posey is read for the HOF right now. He is not.

OK - what modern stats did brock do well at.?

 

[rightwinger]

I saw him in the World Series, saw the impact he had on pitchers and catchers once he got on base. He disrupted the game, took pitchers out of their comfort zone forced the other team to make mistakes

Yes, basestealers disrupt pitchers but they also disrupt batters. Many batters don't like it when the runner on first is bouncing around. Fact is base-stealing is not an important skill and certainly not for brock who was thrown out 25% of the time.

I disagree and think the game is losing a lot by ignoring the impact that speed has on the game

Players like Brock, Joe Morgan and Ricky Henderson did a lot more than take an extra base
They made the pitcher work, upset the pitcher/catcher dynamic, force errors, limit the type of pitches that can be thrown

I have seen many games where a pitcher is in a groove and nobody can handle his stuff. A walk or infield hit by a great base stealer throws him off his game, makes him throw to first, makes him change his pitch selection, and mostly....pisses him off

 

[Vinnieboombotz]

He probably will since he'll get the racist vote that awards all non-whites bonus points, but he's not that good. He has 3000 hits and a good BA but his walk numbers and HR numbers are very low. Just a slightly better than average hitter really. A good outfielder and a good base runner.

He's 44 now and had another poor year in 2017 and it's time to quit though he says he wants to play in 2018!!. I say no HOF for the little nip.

A great baseball player.
He should absolutely be in the HOF.

 

[Vinnieboombotz]

He probably will since he'll get the racist vote that awards all non-whites bonus points, but he's not that good. He has 3000 hits and a good BA but his walk numbers and HR numbers are very low. Just a slightly better than average hitter really. A good outfielder and a good base runner.

He's 44 now and had another poor year in 2017 and it's time to quit though he says he wants to play in 2018!!. I say no HOF for the little nip.

Of course he should. Who do you know that has 3K hits --- even playing an entire career here -- and is not in the HOF?

HR numbers are way overrated. HRs ain't all there is. And you left out his throwing ability.

In short, fuck you.

I still remember that throw from right field to 3rd base. Amazing.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I saw him in the World Series, saw the impact he had on pitchers and catchers once he got on base. He disrupted the game, took pitchers out of their comfort zone forced the other team to make mistakes

Yes, basestealers disrupt pitchers but they also disrupt batters. Many batters don't like it when the runner on first is bouncing around. Fact is base-stealing is not an important skill and certainly not for brock who was thrown out 25% of the time.

^^^ You have pointed out that you do not understand the game.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Brock's metrics are great. ShootSpeeders simply does not understand that stats that surround the game today.

I bet SS thinks Buster Posey is read for the HOF right now. He is not.

OK - what modern stats did brock do well at.?

You have been given the important stats. You don't like them. I don't care you don't like them.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I saw him in the World Series, saw the impact he had on pitchers and catchers once he got on base. He disrupted the game, took pitchers out of their comfort zone forced the other team to make mistakes

Yes, basestealers disrupt pitchers but they also disrupt batters. Many batters don't like it when the runner on first is bouncing around. Fact is base-stealing is not an important skill and certainly not for brock who was thrown out 25% of the time.

I disagree and think the game is losing a lot by ignoring the impact that speed has on the game

Players like Brock, Joe Morgan and Ricky Henderson did a lot more than take an extra base
They made the pitcher work, upset the pitcher/catcher dynamic, force errors, limit the type of pitches that can be thrown

I have seen many games where a pitcher is in a groove and nobody can handle his stuff. A walk or infield hit by a great base stealer throws him off his game, makes him throw to first, makes him change his pitch selection, and mostly....pisses him off

Go look at game tape, folks, with Brock, or Flood, or Coleman, or Robinson bouncing up and down third base or first base, driving the pitcher and catcher to distraction.

 

[Meathead]

Absolutely.

 

[rightwinger]

I saw him in the World Series, saw the impact he had on pitchers and catchers once he got on base. He disrupted the game, took pitchers out of their comfort zone forced the other team to make mistakes

Yes, basestealers disrupt pitchers but they also disrupt batters. Many batters don't like it when the runner on first is bouncing around. Fact is base-stealing is not an important skill and certainly not for brock who was thrown out 25% of the time.

I disagree and think the game is losing a lot by ignoring the impact that speed has on the game

Players like Brock, Joe Morgan and Ricky Henderson did a lot more than take an extra base
They made the pitcher work, upset the pitcher/catcher dynamic, force errors, limit the type of pitches that can be thrown

I have seen many games where a pitcher is in a groove and nobody can handle his stuff. A walk or infield hit by a great base stealer throws him off his game, makes him throw to first, makes him change his pitch selection, and mostly....pisses him off

Go look at game tape, folks, with Brock, or Flood, or Coleman, or Robinson bouncing up and down third base or first base, driving the pitcher and catcher to distraction.

Till his dying day, Yogi swore he made the tag

 

[Meathead]

Pinson no. These numbers don't get you in:

It's not the Hall of Good

SUMMARY
Career

Wins Above Replacement
A single number that presents the number of wins the player added
to the team above what a replacement player (think AAA or AAAA) would add.
Scale for a single-season: 8+ MVP Quality, 5+ All-Star Quality, 2+ Starter,
0-2 Reserve, < 0 Replacement Level
Developed by Sean Smith of BaseballProjection.com" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">WAR
54.1

AB
9645

R
1365

H
2757

Hits/At Bats
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played
Bold indicates highest BA using current stats
Gold means awarded title at end of year." style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">BA
.286

HR
256

RBI
1169

SB
305

(H + BB + HBP)/(At Bats + BB + HBP + SF)
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OBP
.327

Total Bases/At Bats or
(1B + 2*2B + 3*3B + 4*HR)/AB
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">SLG
.442

On-Base + Slugging Percentages
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OPS
.769

OPS+
100*[OBP/lg OBP + SLG/lg SLG - 1]
Adjusted to the player&#x2019;s ballpark(s)" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OPS+
111

 

[JakeStarkey]

Koufax had only 4 WAR more than either Vada Pinson or Lou Brock.

Honus Wagner had a 131 WAR; Gred Maddux, 106.9; Ichiro, 59.6;