Should 18 year olds go to college at today's prices?

[CTSV]

So I was pondering this question, and thinking about my children, and this swirling question about students accumulating debt, then graduating to a future that is either unemployment or under employment. (Under employment is by now familiar meme of a Starbucks Barista with an undergrad degree who cannot find work in their chosen field)

With that in mind I asked myself what decision would I have made.
- I'll start off by explaining that my folks completely paid for the first four years of my education, and then by further explaining that I was a complete fuck off for those four years and several others....ultimately it was 12 years before I got an undergrad degree. But those were 12 very fun years...I really regret none of that.....I actually was in school for a lot of that time, I'm not sure how long I would have gone on that way, but ultimately I met my wife, and she (gently) guided me back onto the path. During this time I waited tables, and received both grants and student loans, ultimately graduating to immediate full time employment with about $24K in debt against a salary of about $40K.

- The second point I'd make is that in the end I picked a major (Supply Chain Management) based simply on my counselors opinion of the major that would get me out the fastest given the course work I had already completed, with the highest probability of getting an immediate job given the school's reputation in the field. I did not make this choice until about 12 months prior to graduation or about 11 years after leaving home. It all worked out, career advancement was rapid, again I have no regrets.

Ok...enough about me, here are some interesting facts about the current generation of college grads:

- Overall they have a labor force participation rate of 72% compared to 54% for folks with only a high school degree
- Overall they have an unemployment rate of 3.7% compared to 7.5% for folks with only a high school degree

Among households holding any student loan debt monthly payments are typically less than 7% of income. Bear in mind this also includes folks with student loan debt that graduated some years back. That being said the 25th percentile pays about 2% of their income, the median pays about 4% of their income and the 75th percentile pays 7% of income. Actual payment dollars are $90, $160, and $300

Lifetime income for folks with undergrad degrees is about $2.27M vs $1.3M for folks with a high school diploma

Some undergrad degrees pay more than others typically STEM degrees
- Engineering median income $75K
- Petroleum Engineering median income $120K

Some undergrad degrees pay less than others
- Social work median income $29K
- Teaching median income $45K

I conclude based on this data that if an individual is seeking a degree in a STEM field college is well worth the investment.

There may be majors where this is not true depending on what the cost per credit hour are and the associated median income, one could likely make an equation that would tell you the predicted return on your investment pretty easily. You would have to slightly modify your expected results if you are not a white male, particularly your odds of getting a job if you are black, or your median income expectations if you are female.

Back to my original reason for doing this, the boys.
- Oldest (16)....classic engineer, already super advanced in math...easy choice for him
- Middle (14)....bright enough in math and science, I'd guess he'd end up like me though, a business major of some sort
- Youngest(10)....not the best student, average academically, but super charming and by far the most handsome....I'd guess he will be the biggest risk in this regard, so I'm coaching my wife that he might want to do something different...he enjoys cooking, maybe he could be a chef?

I've mentioned in previous posts that I've been fighting cancer for years, and unfortunately it looks like that battle is drawing to a close. Fortunately for these guys my father is still alive, and he will fund the first four years of their educations. (He didn't learn very well from me did he?)

 

[Manonthestreet]

Charm =sales.

 

[CTSV]

Charm =sales.

Great Point!...How did I not see that?....I've got a buddy who is essentially nothing but charm and he makes a pretty reasonable living. The guy started out selling "Cutco" knives door to door while he was still in college....now he runs a home improvement business, windows, remodeling and what not.

Good advice my friend.

 

[DriftingSand]

If I had to make a choice as to what sort of education a child of mine might pursue today I would probably lean towards some sort of trade school. But I would want to make dang sure that he or she WANTED more education before spending the money necessary to send him or her anywhere. Too many folks send their kids to college just for the sake of saying they did. Sometimes (often times?) the costs far outweigh the long-term benefits.

 

[DGS49]

It's not an easy decision. 18-year-olds who are bright and motivated will likely go through college in 4 years, major in a relevant field, get good grades and find a job immediately upon graduation. I have several young 'uns in my family who have done that over the past 10 years or so. All had jobs before graduating.

But many 18's (one might even say, "most 18's") don't have that maturity, motivation, or vision. They will go to college and take subjects that they find "interesting," which at the end of the day, tend not to qualify one for any sort of gainful employment. Then they take their degrees and go out, competing for jobs at Enterprise, McDonald's, retailers, hospitality firms, or maybe even a government job. And these are not free-for-the-asking; there is competition to get them, and if you don't get one of those jobs, you will end up unemployed or working at a job that requires no education at all.

And if you have a load of college-debt, this is a frightening prospect indeed. Assuming your parents are "flexible" you are looking at YEARS of sponging off them while working crappy jobs and trying to at least make a start at paying off those loans. Basic Life Stuff like getting a decent car, getting married, having kids, and buying a house (let alone starting to save for retirement) are pushed back into your 30's and beyond. You may not even see these in your future, as they are so far beyond what you are capable of, making $10/hr at Panera or Starbucks.

My perspective is slanted by the fact that I personally was a "late bloomer." I failed out of college, went into the service for three years then tried it again when I was an "adult." I graduated with honors, went to Law School, later got my MBA, and have had a fairly successful career (where I can sit and post this crap on internet sites for most of the day, while being paid handsomely).

So having said all that, if you have an 18-year-old who is only middling-bright, unmotivated, unfocused, and only wants to go to college in order to get out of the house and party for 4 (or 5) years, there is no reason for either you or him/her to go into debt doing that. There are community colleges, trade schools, apprenticeships, and employers that train people on the job, all of which can lead to gainful employment at a manageable cost. It is also possible to work full time and go to school at night. This "nightmare" that often used to last ten years or more can often be shortened to just a little over the standard 4 years by taking classes year round, and taking 3 or 4 night classes per semester. I know it can be done; I did it.

Finally, remember the American Dream. If you don't know, the American Dream has never been about "getting a good job." It is about starting your own business and making it succeed, and often that requires no education at all, merely a willingness to work hard and do things that most people are unwilling to do for themselves. For example, I paid a guy two hundred bucks to clean out my gutters last week. I could have done it myself, but at 64 years old I don't want to risk my life 25 feet up in the air on a ladder with a garden hose. It took him and an assistant about an hour. The guy has a good business with several employees doing something that can easily be taught in an afternoon.

Kids get $40 to cut lawns in my neighborhood. One could easily do 5 yards a day. Do the math.

It's not all bad, and you don't need a college degree to be successful.

 

[Unkotare]

A lot of my students with college ambitions are planning on the community college runway. Two years at a very affordable community college, then transfer to one of the many world-class 4-year colleges in this area. Cuts the total cost nearly in half. On top of that, there are loads of scholarships out there if you bother to look for them.

 

[ScorpioRising007]

So I was pondering this question, and thinking about my children, and this swirling question about students accumulating debt, then graduating to a future that is either unemployment or under employment. (Under employment is by now familiar meme of a Starbucks Barista with an undergrad degree who cannot find work in their chosen field)

With that in mind I asked myself what decision would I have made.
- I'll start off by explaining that my folks completely paid for the first four years of my education, and then by further explaining that I was a complete fuck off for those four years and several others....ultimately it was 12 years before I got an undergrad degree. But those were 12 very fun years...I really regret none of that.....I actually was in school for a lot of that time, I'm not sure how long I would have gone on that way, but ultimately I met my wife, and she (gently) guided me back onto the path. During this time I waited tables, and received both grants and student loans, ultimately graduating to immediate full time employment with about $24K in debt against a salary of about $40K.

- The second point I'd make is that in the end I picked a major (Supply Chain Management) based simply on my counselors opinion of the major that would get me out the fastest given the course work I had already completed, with the highest probability of getting an immediate job given the school's reputation in the field. I did not make this choice until about 12 months prior to graduation or about 11 years after leaving home. It all worked out, career advancement was rapid, again I have no regrets.

Ok...enough about me, here are some interesting facts about the current generation of college grads:

• Overall they have a labor force participation rate of 72% compared to 54% for folks with only a high school degree
• Overall they have an unemployment rate of 3.7% compared to 7.5% for folks with only a high school degree

Among households holding any student loan debt monthly payments are typically less than 7% of income. Bear in mind this also includes folks with student loan debt that graduated some years back. That being said the 25th percentile pays about 2% of their income, the median pays about 4% of their income and the 75th percentile pays 7% of income. Actual payment dollars are $90, $160, and $300

Lifetime income for folks with undergrad degrees is about $2.27M vs $1.3M for folks with a high school diploma

Some undergrad degrees pay more than others typically STEM degrees

• Engineering median income $75K
• Petroleum Engineering median income $120K

Some undergrad degrees pay less than others

• Social work median income $29K
• Teaching median income $45K

I conclude based on this data that if an individual is seeking a degree in a STEM field college is well worth the investment.

There may be majors where this is not true depending on what the cost per credit hour are and the associated median income, one could likely make an equation that would tell you the predicted return on your investment pretty easily. You would have to slightly modify your expected results if you are not a white male, particularly your odds of getting a job if you are black, or your median income expectations if you are female.

Back to my original reason for doing this, the boys.

• Oldest (16)....classic engineer, already super advanced in math...easy choice for him
• Middle (14)....bright enough in math and science, I'd guess he'd end up like me though, a business major of some sort
• Youngest(10)....not the best student, average academically, but super charming and by far the most handsome....I'd guess he will be the biggest risk in this regard, so I'm coaching my wife that he might want to do something different...he enjoys cooking, maybe he could be a chef?

I've mentioned in previous posts that I've been fighting cancer for years, and unfortunately it looks like that battle is drawing to a close. Fortunately for these guys my father is still alive, and he will fund the first four years of their educations. (He didn't learn very well from me did he?)

I have a Bachelor's and Master's and honestly I would not recommend college. I think most will be better off going into the trades. I have struggled since I graduated from college with very low income jobs not in what I majored in. Getting fired/ laid off. There was a period of time I was unemployed and unable to find work. I know so many people who are doing great in the trades, better paid with better benefits than college graduates. I know railroad workers who are doing way better than college graduates. I know those working in factories who have better job prospects. I know laborers who are in a laborers union who are better off than many college graduates. Truck Drivers who are doing way better than a lot of college graduates.

I learned a CDL lead to jobs with a higher salary and better job prospects than my Bachelor's and Master's degrees combined. I am not doing that though since the wife wants me home every night, so instead I work a low paying job. If I wasn't married though, I would return to the road.

If someone is going to college though there are only a few majors I would recommend:

Actuary Science
Engineering
Pre-Med / Med School
Nursing
Accounting/ CPA
LAW School

... otherwise skip college.

I would recommend most 18 year old kids to try the trades instead of college.

 

[Unkotare]

I'm often surprised at how little some students know about scholarships that are available. All those years in school and no one told them to look into it. College is still crazy expensive, but if you put in the work and get good grades, etc. you can cut that down considerably.

 

[ScorpioRising007]

It's not an easy decision. 18-year-olds who are bright and motivated will likely go through college in 4 years, major in a relevant field, get good grades and find a job immediately upon graduation. I have several young 'uns in my family who have done that over the past 10 years or so. All had jobs before graduating.

But many 18's (one might even say, "most 18's") don't have that maturity, motivation, or vision. They will go to college and take subjects that they find "interesting," which at the end of the day, tend not to qualify one for any sort of gainful employment. Then they take their degrees and go out, competing for jobs at Enterprise, McDonald's, retailers, hospitality firms, or maybe even a government job. And these are not free-for-the-asking; there is competition to get them, and if you don't get one of those jobs, you will end up unemployed or working at a job that requires no education at all.

And if you have a load of college-debt, this is a frightening prospect indeed. Assuming your parents are "flexible" you are looking at YEARS of sponging off them while working crappy jobs and trying to at least make a start at paying off those loans. Basic Life Stuff like getting a decent car, getting married, having kids, and buying a house (let alone starting to save for retirement) are pushed back into your 30's and beyond. You may not even see these in your future, as they are so far beyond what you are capable of, making $10/hr at Panera or Starbucks.

My perspective is slanted by the fact that I personally was a "late bloomer." I failed out of college, went into the service for three years then tried it again when I was an "adult." I graduated with honors, went to Law School, later got my MBA, and have had a fairly successful career (where I can sit and post this crap on internet sites for most of the day, while being paid handsomely).

So having said all that, if you have an 18-year-old who is only middling-bright, unmotivated, unfocused, and only wants to go to college in order to get out of the house and party for 4 (or 5) years, there is no reason for either you or him/her to go into debt doing that. There are community colleges, trade schools, apprenticeships, and employers that train people on the job, all of which can lead to gainful employment at a manageable cost. It is also possible to work full time and go to school at night. This "nightmare" that often used to last ten years or more can often be shortened to just a little over the standard 4 years by taking classes year round, and taking 3 or 4 night classes per semester. I know it can be done; I did it.

Finally, remember the American Dream. If you don't know, the American Dream has never been about "getting a good job." It is about starting your own business and making it succeed, and often that requires no education at all, merely a willingness to work hard and do things that most people are unwilling to do for themselves. For example, I paid a guy two hundred bucks to clean out my gutters last week. I could have done it myself, but at 64 years old I don't want to risk my life 25 feet up in the air on a ladder with a garden hose. It took him and an assistant about an hour. The guy has a good business with several employees doing something that can easily be taught in an afternoon.

Kids get $40 to cut lawns in my neighborhood. One could easily do 5 yards a day. Do the math.

It's not all bad, and you don't need a college degree to be successful.

I actually agree with a lot of what you posted.

I myself got an undegrad in Business and a Masters Degree in Education with a teaching license and they were the most worthless degrees. All kinds of teaching interviews no job, only ever hired as a teachers aid or Subsitute. You just give up after a while and just settle for low paying jobs. Most jobs I have had have been low paying jobs with little to no benefits. I have struggled with periods of unemployment..

I am not unique I have met many college grads in my situation. A lot of money wasted on degrees and all they land is crummy low paying jobs. I call it the national college degree scam. Colleges are ripping parents and students off of their hard earned money with false dreams and hopes.

My CDL was worth more than my Bachelors in Business and Masters in Education combined. All kinds of great paying jobs right of of trucking school and they were great paying jobs, hired on the spot so easily. The only reason I don't do it anymore is the wife doesn't like me being away from home.

I would advise against many 18 year olds going to college and instead advocate a trade, I know so many people in trades doing way better than college graduates now. I would tell young kids don't listen to this "go to college crap" that is being pushed down your throat by teachers at school, it is becoming so largely a scam anymore.

If your going to college though major in something with a lot jobs like healthcare. I was taking classes toward a 2nd masters in healthcare to become a nurse instead....but I will see. Third time may be a charm or I might just end up back on a Truck.

 

[Hector12]

Any education after high school must be job and career oriented. It should also be practical and realistic.

If you want to be a novelist, do not major in literature. If you want to be a singer - song writer, do not major in music. If you want to be an actor or an actress do not major in drama. Major in what you can do if your dreams do not come true.

If you study the biographies of successful novelists, singer - song writers, actors, and actresses you will find that many did not go to college, many who went to college did not graduate, and many who graduated acquired knowledge irrelevant to their careers.

Success in one of those fields is a gift. You either have the talent for it or you do not. Hard work and determination will not get you there if that is all you have.

 

[Unkotare]

A lot of people criticizing those "pushing" young people into college while at the exact same time they are trying to "push" those same young people into whatever the individual poster might decide is better for everyone else.
Kind
Of
The
Same
Thing

 

[Hector12]

A lot of people criticizing those "pushing" young people into college while at the exact same time they are trying to "push" those same young people into whatever the individual poster might decide is better for everyone else.
Kind
Of
The
Same
Thing

No one should go to college unless that person has definite career plans that can only be achieved by a college degree.

 

[Zincwarrior]

No self respecting MAGA should ever let themselves or their kids get a guvmint vaksinasion or a guvmint edukasion. Thats for Commies!

 

[Unkotare]

No one should go to college unless that person has definite career plans that can only be achieved by a college degree.

No one should go into a trade unless that person has definite career plans that can only be achieved by a trade, and has demonstrated proficiency in said trade.