Shock. Disbelief. Denial.

[Dr Grump]

You've got QUITE a rebelious/bitter/hypocritical mindset, brother.

Rebellious? Maybe. Bitter? What about? Hypocritical? What about?

 

[Avatar4321]

Or whether they repent and confess, then carry on with said behaviour/sin...

You cant carry on with the sin and repent. Repentence by definition is turning away from it.

 

[Dr Grump]

You cant carry on with the sin and repent. Repentence by definition is turning away from it.

Exactly, that is my understanding...

 

[Dr Grump]

of COURSE He did....That'd be nice for you, eh? So - between 1987 and 1990 the guy paid TWO hookers to dance naked on the dresser. When have you last sinned, brother?

Nice edit. For a start who said they only lap danced? In your original post you said it was only one, now it's two and according to the Wiki article it was more. So how many get-out-of-jail free cards are you gonna give him?

As an aside, if you want to edit your posts fine, please do not edit mine.

 

[dilloduck]

Nice edit. For a start who said they only lap danced? In your original post you said it was only one, now it's two and according to the Wiki article it was more. So how many get-out-of-jail free cards are you gonna give him?

As an aside, if you want to edit your posts fine, please do not edit mine.

Excuse me--are you condemming someone here--or is it judging?

 

[dmp]

Nice edit. For a start who said they only lap danced? In your original post you said it was only one, now it's two and according to the Wiki article it was more. So how many get-out-of-jail free cards are you gonna give him?

As an aside, if you want to edit your posts fine, please do not edit mine.

What makes you think I edited your post? Wierdo.

First, it's up to GOD to accept his repentance, NOT me. God forgives sincere repentance based upon his promises in the Bible. IF somebody sins against ME (which Mr. Swaggart did NOT), I'll try to follow Christ's example.

 

[dmp]

Rebellious? Maybe. Bitter? What about? Hypocritical? What about?

You're taking an attitude of Judging Mr. Swaggart for sins; yet admit to wrong-doing in YOUR life. Have you done anything wrong in 10 years we can bludging you about?

See what I'm getting at?

 

[no1tovote4]

Great. Every time I fuck up, I'll just ask for forgiveness and all will be right...

Repenting is more than just asking for forgiveness. To repent means to take a 180 degree turn. Not only to turn over a new leaf and not do something, but to change to a degree where you will no longer want to.

 

[Annie]

Repenting is more than just asking for forgiveness. To repent means to take a 180 degree turn. Not only to turn over a new leaf and not do something, but to change to a degree where you will no longer want to.

And for Catholics, I'm not sure on the Protestant take, not only trying to avoid sin, but making things right when possible, for those whom you've wronged.

 

[jillian]

Great. Every time I fuck up, I'll just ask for forgiveness and all will be right...

Well, you know how it is. Everyone else is immoral and they say the magic words...

But there's no hypocrisy there, eh?

 

[dmp]

Well, you know how it is. Everyone else is immoral and they say the magic words...

But there's no hypocrisy there, eh?

I find it's remarkably EASY to dismiss a concept one doesn't understand. I just don't know WHY it's so easy. I think it may have to do with people don't like to feel ignorant.

 

[Dr Grump]

You're taking an attitude of Judging Mr. Swaggart for sins; yet admit to wrong-doing in YOUR life. Have you done anything wrong in 10 years we can bludging you about?

See what I'm getting at?

Well, as far as I can tell somebody changed my post and it wasn’t me. Bit like my taglines squashed up a while back.

That aside, no I am not hypocritical. Swaggart’s hypocrisy does not come from his sinning, and I am not judging that. It comes from telling others they are damned if they do and to desist. I ain’t telling anybody NOT to sin….he was…understand….”brother”?

 

[Gem]

dmp,

Everyone has done things wrong...not all of us have put ourselves forward as paragons of virtue and Christian values while continuing to lie and sin again and again. There is a difference. If you are going to put yourself out as a rolemodel in any sense, you have to be willing to accept the consequences.

Case in point, I am a teacher. While out to dinner at a new restaurant Friday night I told my friends that I really wanted a Long Island Iced Tea. I hadn't had one in awhile, LOVE them...and after a long week, was looking forward to it. As we were seated, one of my students ran over to the table to say hi, she and her parents were eating there too. I ordered water.

Could I have gotten that drink? Sure...I had no intentions of getting drunk...but I'm a role model...and wasn't comfortable getting a huge alcoholic beverage in front of one of my students. I made a choice because I knew that my actions were being watched by people who I make an impression on.

In the FAR more severe cases we have been discussing however, there is an even larger difference. There are things that a person does in this world that God may forgive if a person sincerely asks for it (leaving out for a moment that Swaggart blamed his sinning not on himself but on demons)...however that does not mean that the rest of us have to treat that person as if they have done nothing wrong.

If an elementary teacher molests small children...but then repents, asks forgiveness of God, and means it with 100% of who they are...should society "forgive and forget?"

Of course not. God forgives...the rest of us try our best to live by the example God set for us while still living in the really real world.

Swaggart was an asshole and a hypocrite who lied repeatedly and then claimed that he had sinned because the demons made him do it...doesn't sound like someone who has accepted responsibility for his actions to me.

If God has an issue with my calling Swaggart an asshole, then He and I can discuss it later...it really isn't your concern.

But I stand by my statement - most decent Christians deserve better than to be lumped into the same group as that man.

 

[Bullypulpit]

No, alcohol and drugs impairs the ability to reason and opens you up to temptations. You are still responsible for the choices to make in this situation, but if you dont think you make decisions you wouldnt make otherwise while impaired you are one of the most ignorant individual in the world.

You're still evading the issue. Why did this paragon of Christian moral virtue engage in homosexuality? Why did he use meth? The drugs did not "make" him do anything, and it is not unheard of for some gay men to use crystal meth to heighten their sexual pleasure.

If his reasoning was impaired, it was the result of a society which treats homosexuality as abnormal and un-natural, which it isn't, and brands homosexuals as monsters. If that doesn't warp your psyche, nothing will.

 

[Avatar4321]

You're still evading the issue. Why did this paragon of Christian moral virtue engage in homosexuality? Why did he use meth? The drugs did not "make" him do anything, and it is not unheard of for some gay men to use crystal meth to heighten their sexual pleasure.

If his reasoning was impaired, it was the result of a society which treats homosexuality as abnormal and un-natural, which it isn't, and brands homosexuals as monsters. If that doesn't warp your psyche, nothing will.

Not evading it all. you are just making assumptions.

First, you are assuming the man was a paragon of Christian virtue.

Second, you are assuming that he had no choice. The fact is there are many reasons one might choose to do something. I know plenty of smokers who dont want to smoke for example. People make stupid choices all the time and hate their choices. that doesnt mean they were forced to make their choices. There are numerous reasons one might make a choice they hate, addiction, Impairment, etc.

You are so quick to assume that it isnt some choice that he has no control over it. He is accountable for his actions. Everyone is accountable for their actions. Why is that such a difficult concept for you to understand?

I couldn't care less why he made the choices he made. But im not going to let you pretend as though he had no choice in the matter. He was wrong and I hope he repents. Much like I hope you repent as well.

 

[dmp]

Well, as far as I can tell somebody changed my post and it wasn’t me. Bit like my taglines squashed up a while back.

We can see EVERY moderator action on every member's thread - nobody edited your post, brother.

 

[MissileMan]

First, you are assuming the man was a paragon of Christian virtue.

Absolutely right. But wouldn't you expect the person who's taken responsibility for shepherding the 14,000 members of his church and the president of an association representing 30 million Christians to at least be familiar and comply with the basics?

This pastor's failings are another entry on the list of why some of us don't, and will probably never, buy into your religion. How can you expect us to take it seriously, when, in light of all the "testimony" about how Christianity can "cure" homosexuality, this pastor doesn't believe in it enough to avail himself of it.

And the Bible is touted as a source of God's perfect truth. Yet, it's so imperfect as to be open to interpretation and a cause of disagreement among members of the same faith (see the married couple sexual taboos thread as proof of that). I would expect a truly divine book to be above that sort of imperfection.

 

[Avatar4321]

Absolutely right. But wouldn't you expect the person who's taken responsibility for shepherding the 14,000 members of his church and the president of an association representing 30 million Christians to at least be familiar and comply with the basics?

This pastor's failings are another entry on the list of why some of us don't, and will probably never, buy into your religion. How can you expect us to take it seriously, when, in light of all the "testimony" about how Christianity can "cure" homosexuality, this pastor doesn't believe in it enough to avail himself of it.

And the Bible is touted as a source of God's perfect truth. Yet, it's so imperfect as to be open to interpretation and a cause of disagreement among members of the same faith (see the married couple sexual taboos thread as proof of that). I would expect a truly divine book to be above that sort of imperfection.

The fact that you expect any book touched by human hands, no matter how inspired, to be perfect is exactly why you dont get it.

The Bible is a guide, the Word has given to men in the past. We cannot live by revelations to others. we need to get and recieve our own revelations. we need to know God. Not just know who He is, but actually know him.

There are many so called pasters that labor for money and fame among evangelicals. Even one is too many. You arent the only one who has problems with that. But there are also many good and decent evangelicals living their religion. I hope more than those hypocrites.

I may not be an evangelical myself, but im not going to put them down because their pastors dont live like they should.

But sadly the entire message of the Gospel seems to be lost on many. Even those who profess the faith. There are many people who make mistakes. And they can be forgiven. They can repent. they can be free from sin. Simply because some self proclaimed pasters dont use it doesnt change the hope and reality of the message. All men must be born of the Spirit. That involves putting off the natural man and embracing virtue.

Its a pathway. 2 Peter 1 teaches us the steps up. From faith, to knowledge, to virture etc. Sadly many seem to never get beyond the faith step.

I cant explain why others do as they do. I can only explain what I know. And I know that God lives. I know that Jesus is the Christ. Ive learned this for myself. And every man can learn for themselves if they humble themsemselves and study it out and ask it faith. Its possible. Ive done it myself. God is far from silent in this bleak and often unbearable world. Sadly many refuse to heed his counsel, and His counsel is the only thing that can save us from destroying ourselves.

 

[dmp]

If an elementary teacher molests small children...but then repents, asks forgiveness of God, and means it with 100% of who they are...should society "forgive and forget?"

Of course not. God forgives...the rest of us try our best to live by the example God set for us while still living in the really real world.

Are you comparing a guy w/ lust issues to a child molester? That's just not right...not even CLOSE to apples : apples.

Swaggart was an asshole and a hypocrite who lied repeatedly and then claimed that he had sinned because the demons made him do it...doesn't sound like someone who has accepted responsibility for his actions to me.

I take it you know Swaggart's heart, eh? Cool.

If God has an issue with my calling Swaggart an asshole, then He and I can discuss it later...it really isn't your concern.

I think God's already addressed that issue...

"Let him who is without sin...." Something like that?

But I stand by my statement - most decent Christians deserve better than to be lumped into the same group as that man.

Good lookin' out!

 

[Bullypulpit]

Not evading it all. you are just making assumptions.

First, you are assuming the man was a paragon of Christian virtue.

Second, you are assuming that he had no choice. The fact is there are many reasons one might choose to do something. I know plenty of smokers who dont want to smoke for example. People make stupid choices all the time and hate their choices. that doesnt mean they were forced to make their choices. There are numerous reasons one might make a choice they hate, addiction, Impairment, etc.

You are so quick to assume that it isnt some choice that he has no control over it. He is accountable for his actions. Everyone is accountable for their actions. Why is that such a difficult concept for you to understand?

I couldn't care less why he made the choices he made. But im not going to let you pretend as though he had no choice in the matter. He was wrong and I hope he repents. Much like I hope you repent as well.

Bad analogy, smoking and gender preference...No comparison at all. By implication, you assert one chooses gender identity the same way one chooses, or not, to smoke. Not so.

As for my assumption that the Reverend Haggard was a paragon of Christian moral virtue, there is little to assume. He was the pastor of the New Life Church, a congregation of some 14,000 members, and president of the National Association of Evangelicals. He was responsible for the moral guidance of his congregation and as president of the NAE, an exemplar to its members.

So, if homosexuality is a "lifestyle choice", why did Reverend Ted Haggard choose to do so, knowing full well that it was , according to his dogma, a mortal sin. Why did he then choose to engage in homosexuality, knowing the grief it would bring to himself, his family and his congregation?

Answer the question.

As for repentance, I have nothing to repent, particularly since I am not even a Chrisitan.