Serious Question. What makes a "fair tax" fair?

[Soggy in NOLA]

Liberal mantra - the only fair tax is the tax that the other guy pays.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Umm Marc we are a consumer society. Consumers should be rewarded instead of punished?
Well that is the current situation anyway, not the ideal one becuase much of our economy is based on excessive consumerism and waste.
But until we change our economy is based on consumerism.

Why is the "fair tax" proposal called the fair tax? A sales point, nothing more than that.
Every time I have seen something coming out of politics and government give a good sounding name like "blue Skies" or something it is time to get out the vaseline and bend over.

And to think that only a generation ago, we were a manufacturing society. We were better off when we built things rather than imported them.

I love this argument. The US is still a member of the G8, and we have a manufacturing base that is larger than most countries. Your problem is that you look at the big manufacturers, see that they employ fewer people, and think that means they produce less. The fact is that our export of manufactured goods reached a 20 year high last year, but the economy still sucks. Maybe manufacturing is not as important to our economy as the talking heads you listen to want you to believe.

I'm still trying to get me a job at the icehouse.

 

[lizzie]

I'm genuinely curious - no one ever explained why a "fair tax" consumption tax is "fairer" than an income tax.

Thoughts?

Because almost half the population pays nothing in fed income taxes, they don't have any personal stake in the well-being of the country as a whole, and generally speaking, people don't appreciate what they don't earn in one way or another. Paying consumption taxes makes everyone cognizant of what they personally, and we, as a country, are doing fiscally. Iow, it makes them think more responsibly about their own part that they play in society.

 

[Big Black Dog]

My thoughts on taxes... Well, I think everybody and I mean everybody should pay the same percentage of income tax as anybody else. There shouldn't be a million deductions for every thing under the sun. No deductions of any kind. There should be no State Income Taxes. Just for conversation, let's say everybody in the United States pays 15% of whatever they make as an income tax to the Feds. The Fed, in turns, sends 5% of what you have sent to them to the individual State that you reside in. Everybody pays the same and there is none of this business of 49% of the population not paying any taxes at all. That would seem more fair to me than the current system.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

I'm genuinely curious - no one ever explained why a "fair tax" consumption tax is "fairer" than an income tax.

Thoughts?

Because almost half the population pays nothing in fed income taxes, they don't have any personal stake in the well-being of the country as a whole, and generally speaking, people don't appreciate what they don't earn in one way or another. Paying consumption taxes makes everyone cognizant of what they personally, and we, as a country, are doing fiscally. Iow, it makes them think more responsibly about their own part that they play in society.

This is not true, btw. Payroll taxes count as federal taxes, and EVERYONE who works pays payroll taxes. You even pay taxes when you're receiving unemployment.

 

[uscitizen]

Guys, I'd really like you guys to start adding qualifiers to the statements you make.

"A consumption tax is not fair." Why? Says who? How did you derive at that conclusion?

Are you saying that a person or entity should be able to consume as much as they want and not have to pay the price for their consumption?

I say no. Everything comes at a price. The price we pay for each individual owning a car in America is lower air quality aka more air pollution. More air pollution means more sickness, less health, which boils down to people spending more in health care costs and also experiencing a lower quality of life and earlier probability of death.

Its a price. It should be paid for. Not only is it the right thing to do, its the fair thing to do.

Please lay out your argument for why a "Fair Tax" would be fair other than it makes those who want to consume the most pay the least as a percentage of their consumption. Which is actually...very unfair.

Most people would argue that a consumption tax is unfair because poor people would pay a larger portion of their income than rich people. This is a knee jerk reaction based on the progressive-regressive designation of taxes that we have been taught since grade school.

About the cars. With everyone in the US owning a car we get the benefit of living in the suburbs instead of being crowded into cities, not being dependent on public transportation and unions to get to work, more freedom to work in a different neighborhood than you live, and a better selection of schools.

Living in the burbs will become more of a problem than benefit as oil goes higher and higher and eventually gets too expensive to be used for personal transportation.
The USA was built around cheap gas and we will pay for that shortsighted plan.

 

[The Rabbi]

I'm genuinely curious - no one ever explained why a "fair tax" consumption tax is "fairer" than an income tax.

Thoughts?

Because almost half the population pays nothing in fed income taxes, they don't have any personal stake in the well-being of the country as a whole, and generally speaking, people don't appreciate what they don't earn in one way or another. Paying consumption taxes makes everyone cognizant of what they personally, and we, as a country, are doing fiscally. Iow, it makes them think more responsibly about their own part that they play in society.

This is not true, btw. Payroll taxes count as federal taxes, and EVERYONE who works pays payroll taxes. You even pay taxes when you're receiving unemployment.

Non-sequitur of the day.
It isn't true that almost half the population pays nothing in federal income taxes because everyone who works pays FICA.
Brilliant. Just fucking brilliant.

 

[uscitizen]

FICA is not income tax. It is a "contribution"
You do pay income tax on the FICA money you pay in though.
But some get it all back and more too.

 

[LuckyDan]

"Fair Tax" as such was the name for a natioal sales tax. I don't like it. Too easy to hide the real rate and punishes consumption, which we should kinda sorta encourage so we can all keep buying and selling things amongst ourselves.

I like the idea of flat tax on income. Everybody pays 8%, 10% whatever.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Right...Controlling spending is a pipe dream, but debating the merits of a silly new direct tax that doesn't have a snowball's chance of ever coming about is worthwhile.

Umm this was about tax not spending.

Yep cut spending to the point you speak of and watch the USA fall into the dark ages.
My flat tax idea would not cause that problem.

Not that my flat tax idea has a chance of being implemented. It would remove too much power from congress/lobbyists.
but it would work if implemented.

Your flat tax? May want to reread my post. As for why consumption taxes are unfair? because the poor bear the most burden under them.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

If fair tax is the same system as tithing then I'm all for it.

As you may or may not know, tithe is 10% of all income. So the more you earn, the more you get, the more you pay.

If this is what Fair Tax people are for...then count me in.

I'm not sure if they are for that as stated above. Are they?

Would probably be 15 percent.

 

[MarcATL]

Guys, I'd really like you guys to start adding qualifiers to the statements you make.

"A consumption tax is not fair." Why? Says who? How did you derive at that conclusion?

Are you saying that a person or entity should be able to consume as much as they want and not have to pay the price for their consumption?

I say no. Everything comes at a price. The price we pay for each individual owning a car in America is lower air quality aka more air pollution. More air pollution means more sickness, less health, which boils down to people spending more in health care costs and also experiencing a lower quality of life and earlier probability of death.

Its a price. It should be paid for. Not only is it the right thing to do, its the fair thing to do.

Please lay out your argument for why a "Fair Tax" would be fair other than it makes those who want to consume the most pay the least as a percentage of their consumption. Which is actually...very unfair.

Most people would argue that a consumption tax is unfair because poor people would pay a larger portion of their income than rich people. This is a knee jerk reaction based on the progressive-regressive designation of taxes that we have been taught since grade school.

About the cars. With everyone in the US owning a car we get the benefit of living in the suburbs instead of being crowded into cities, not being dependent on public transportation and unions to get to work, more freedom to work in a different neighborhood than you live, and a better selection of schools.

Your proposition would still be at a major cost to the environment...you don't seem to factor that in. That tells me that you don't care...whateever it takes to do whatever you want when you want it...thats what we will do. This is why the world is so effed up right now. People only thinking here and now. Nature is crying out. And no, I'm not a tree-hugger, but the damage is done and its exponentially getting worse due to our actions. Our as in Mankind...not just America. As everyone is following her. Well...most everyone. Well...a large chunk is at least.

"Fair Tax" as such was the name for a natioal sales tax. I don't like it. Too easy to hide the real rate and punishes consumption, which we should kinda sorta encourage so we can all keep buying and selling things amongst ourselves.

I like the idea of flat tax on income. Everybody pays 8%, 10% whatever.

Sounds like tithe. One single percentage for everyone, based on whatever is your increase...no questions, no exemptions. I like it.

If fair tax is the same system as tithing then I'm all for it.

As you may or may not know, tithe is 10% of all income. So the more you earn, the more you get, the more you pay.

If this is what Fair Tax people are for...then count me in.

I'm not sure if they are for that as stated above. Are they?

Would probably be 15 percent.

15 seems like a good number.

So are you guys saying no Fed tax, just local or no local and just Fed or 15 for local and 10 for Fed or some other combo?

 

[The Rabbi]

Guys, I'd really like you guys to start adding qualifiers to the statements you make.

"A consumption tax is not fair." Why? Says who? How did you derive at that conclusion?

Are you saying that a person or entity should be able to consume as much as they want and not have to pay the price for their consumption?

I say no. Everything comes at a price. The price we pay for each individual owning a car in America is lower air quality aka more air pollution. More air pollution means more sickness, less health, which boils down to people spending more in health care costs and also experiencing a lower quality of life and earlier probability of death.

Its a price. It should be paid for. Not only is it the right thing to do, its the fair thing to do.

Please lay out your argument for why a "Fair Tax" would be fair other than it makes those who want to consume the most pay the least as a percentage of their consumption. Which is actually...very unfair.

Most people would argue that a consumption tax is unfair because poor people would pay a larger portion of their income than rich people. This is a knee jerk reaction based on the progressive-regressive designation of taxes that we have been taught since grade school.

About the cars. With everyone in the US owning a car we get the benefit of living in the suburbs instead of being crowded into cities, not being dependent on public transportation and unions to get to work, more freedom to work in a different neighborhood than you live, and a better selection of schools.

Your proposition would still be at a major cost to the environment...you don't seem to factor that in. That tells me that you don't care...whateever it takes to do whatever you want when you want it...thats what we will do. This is why the world is so effed up right now. People only thinking here and now. Nature is crying out. And no, I'm not a tree-hugger, but the damage is done and its exponentially getting worse due to our actions. Our as in Mankind...not just America. As everyone is following her. Well...most everyone. Well...a large chunk is at least.

Well, air quality has improved over the last 30 years. So your thesis is wrong from the get go. Car pollution is only one source, so emphasizing it like it is the major cause of air pollution is simply wrong. Your characterizations of QW are also wrong.
So other than being factually incorrect and drawing wrong conclusions it was a great post!

 

[hipeter924]

Make it 6% or lower personal tax, and put business tax at 0%, make government a volunteer and low cost thing, leaving only the military and law and order as things we actually have to pay the government for. Sorry I am getting carried away again...

 

[Nosmo King]

Umm Marc we are a consumer society. Consumers should be rewarded instead of punished?
Well that is the current situation anyway, not the ideal one becuase much of our economy is based on excessive consumerism and waste.
But until we change our economy is based on consumerism.

Why is the "fair tax" proposal called the fair tax? A sales point, nothing more than that.
Every time I have seen something coming out of politics and government give a good sounding name like "blue Skies" or something it is time to get out the vaseline and bend over.

And to think that only a generation ago, we were a manufacturing society. We were better off when we built things rather than imported them.

I love this argument. The US is still a member of the G8, and we have a manufacturing base that is larger than most countries. Your problem is that you look at the big manufacturers, see that they employ fewer people, and think that means they produce less. The fact is that our export of manufactured goods reached a 20 year high last year, but the economy still sucks. Maybe manufacturing is not as important to our economy as the talking heads you listen to want you to believe.

Production increases, the workforce decreases, wages remain stagnant and all is right with the bottom line! A Conservative Nirvana!

Until you consider that it's the customer base that is damaged. Without those paychecks, who do you suppose will buy all the American and imported products? The rich? If everyone had more disposable income, not just those who own the means of production, the market would explode with growth.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The tax cutting mania of the last 30 years has left us with 47% of households paying NO federal income tax,

along with a political mindset that is deadset against resuming taxing that 47%.

That in and of itself makes the fair tax DOA, unless someone can prove that none of that 47% would pay more taxes under it.

 

[NYcarbineer]

"Fair Tax" as such was the name for a natioal sales tax. I don't like it. Too easy to hide the real rate and punishes consumption, which we should kinda sorta encourage so we can all keep buying and selling things amongst ourselves.

I like the idea of flat tax on income. Everybody pays 8%, 10% whatever.

You'll never see a flat tax, for the reason I cited in the post below. Polticians won't vote to raise taxes on the lower income half of America.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

I'm genuinely curious - no one ever explained why a "fair tax" consumption tax is "fairer" than an income tax.

Thoughts?

I'm thinking the concept, is....the higher your income, the more you "tax"/use (whatever) resources we have in the U.S. (i.e. if you have the aptitude to generate mucho ca$h, you also have the obligation to more-fairly support the "machine" that allows you to ply your skills.)​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

A consumption tax is not fair.

That's IT....just-like-THAT??!!!

You "conservatives" need to get-over your idea that....because you SAY-so, it's some kind o' Absolute....that no-farther explanation is needed!!​

Fair tax would be flat rate that everyone pays with a set threshold under which one pays no taxes.

If that includes ALL income....direct, OR indirect....I could buy-into that....to-date.

Back when Steve Forbes was running for the Presidency, he suggested a flat-tax....except, he suggested NO capital-gains taxes, on-top-o'-that!! That's bullshit.​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Guys, I'd really like you guys to start adding qualifiers to the statements you make.

"A consumption tax is not fair." Why? Says who? How did you derive at that conclusion?

Are you saying that a person or entity should be able to consume as much as they want and not have to pay the price for their consumption?

I say no. Everything comes at a price. The price we pay for each individual owning a car in America is lower air quality aka more air pollution. More air pollution means more sickness, less health, which boils down to people spending more in health care costs and also experiencing a lower quality of life and earlier probability of death.

Its a price. It should be paid for. Not only is it the right thing to do, its the fair thing to do.

Please lay out your argument for why a "Fair Tax" would be fair other than it makes those who want to consume the most pay the least as a percentage of their consumption. Which is actually...very unfair.

Bingo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

​