serious question on core Jewish belief

[ding]

And it is you who claims that God created everything. Are illnesses, disease, broken bones, starvation, birth defects, death and dying not evils that people endure through no fault of their own, but because they live in a universe created by God, as you profess to believe, a universe that would not exist unless it was not perfect?Are illnesses, disease, broken bones, starvation, death etc., good?

Maimonides responds...

MEN frequently think that the evils in the world are more numerous than the good things, that just isn't the case. He who thinks that he can have flesh and bones without being subject to any external influence, or any of the accidents of matter, unconsciously wishes to reconcile two opposites, viz., to be at the same time subject and not subject to change. If man were never subject to change there could be no generation: there would be one single being, but no individuals forming a species. It would be in vain to expect to see living beings formed of the blood of menstruous women and the semen virile, who will not die, will never feel pain, or will move perpetually, or will shine like the sun. Whatever is formed of any matter receives the most perfect form possible in that species of matter: in each individual case the defects are in accordance with the defects of that individual matter. The best and most perfect being that can be formed of the blood and the semen is the species of man, for as far as man's nature is known, he is living, reasonable, and mortal. It is therefore impossible that man should be free from this species of evil. You will, nevertheless, find that the evils of the above kind which befall man are very few and rare.

 

[BreezeWood]

christian bible is something else - deliberate forgeries and fallacies on nearly every page.

I was going to commend you for your post, until I read the last sentence. Clearly you are a Jew, no, not a Jew, an Israelitie lost in the forest with wolves howling in the distance, getting closer, closer.,,.,,, they have found your sent and their pups will feast on your flesh while you are still alive.,,,,,,.,,but not for long.
btw: you will not be missed
-

.

christian bible is something else - deliberate forgeries and fallacies on nearly every page.

... until I read the last sentence.

.
it's so good of you to asked for an example ...
.
"Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works." 2 John 1:9-11
.
well, of course those without a free spirit might get lost with the above, most though, still alive can clearly see the motivation for the forgeries and fallacies expressed by the state religion of the roman empire in the above quote.


and certainly I am not a 4rth century christian - if that helps. would not be a jew if I were born one - the religion of antiquity forbids such as their corruption.

religion of antiquity includes all for a single purpose - triumph of good vs evil - how distantobserver would turn out is anyone's guess.

hey, also - what makes you believe jews in america are any different - they sold their souls for trump - nothing new there, history and all.

 

[hobelim]

There is no heaven or hell. There is only either being eternally united or eternally separated from God.

Jesus responds...

"Unless you repent you will never enter the kingdom of Heaven."

"How do you expect to escape the condemnation of hell?"


Apparently Jesus disagrees with you......


The habitation of otherworldly beings, Heaven, is an actual place, a sphere of higher intelligences.

 

[hobelim]

for as far as man's nature is known, he is living, reasonable, and mortal. It is therefore impossible that man should be free from this species of evil.

So, according to maimonides, evil exists.

Isn't that exactly what I said dingbat?

 

[Street Juice]

At its root, it refers to the core Jewish belief that the Creator of the Universe also has a special and unique relationship with His chosen people."

According to scripture and Jewish tradition, God wished to have a people who placed themselves apart from others to live by a more austere code than other nations. The rest of us could live by a more relaxed code of our own choosing. God wasn't abandoning either group.

Why would any universal God demand what is, frankly, xenophobia from just one tribe (and the enslavement or genocide of all the others?) It is the opposite of a universal God. It is a tribal god and a particularly blood-thirsty one.

You are mistaking the actions of "God's chosen people" for God.

I reread my post and I don't understand what you are referring to.

For example, God had to utterly destroy his own people on several occasions due to their wickedness.

I'm also not familiar with this. If they were utterly destroyed, how is it they are still around? And when you say "God destroyed", what were the circumstances. Are you referencing the Flood?

Christ even said that the blood of the prophets were on the heads, including himself, of those Hebrews that murdered and oppressed them.

I don't recall getting anything like this in Sunday School. I thought one of Jesus' modernization reforms did away with the whole "sins of the fathers" thing as being fundamentally unfair and immoral in that it punishes the innocent. Also, wasn't Jesus Galilean?

As a result, you get conflicting messages from what God actually thinks and does.

 

[Street Juice]

The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them. Man himself is the author of this class of evils.

The fact that God does not cause evil doesn't detract from the fact that evil exists, even if it is from lack of wisdom or self chosen as it is with you.

And you neglected to mention the other classes of evil described in great detail in the same treatise.

Such as the evils consequent to existing in the material universe which you profess to believe was created by God.

So there's a contradiction. If God created the material universe then he also created the evils associated with life in the material world.

If you believe evil exists then you believe God created it. God created everything.

evil is the absence of good, dummy.

The absence of good is not nothing. It is evil which is something.

And it is you who claims that God created everything. Are illnesses, disease, broken bones, starvation, birth defects, death and dying not evils that people endure through no fault of their own, but because they live in a universe created by God, as you profess to believe, a universe that would not exist unless it was not perfect?
'
Are illnesses, disease, broken bones, starvation, death etc., good?

There is no hell? Bullshit.

You profess to believe in a past that never happened, have absolutely no clue about what is actually taking place. you call good evil and evil good while awaiting a future that will never come in a reality that contradicts your absurd faith every day and night like a consuming fire that will never go out.

Yup, thats hell and you are in it. of your own free will.

There is no heaven or hell. There is only either being eternally united or eternally separated from God.

"There is no hell."
Ever been to Indianapolis?

 

[ding]

for as far as man's nature is known, he is living, reasonable, and mortal. It is therefore impossible that man should be free from this species of evil.

So, according to maimonides, evil exists.

Isn't that exactly what I said dingbat?

Only an idiot would conclude that was what Maimonides was saying. The term "evil" is used as a literary convenience.

 

[ding]

There is no heaven or hell. There is only either being eternally united or eternally separated from God.

Jesus responds...

"Unless you repent you will never enter the kingdom of Heaven."

"How do you expect to escape the condemnation of hell?"


Apparently Jesus disagrees with you......


The habitation of otherworldly beings, Heaven, is an actual place, a sphere of higher intelligences.

Only time will tell. I say He was using that as a literary convenience for being eternally united with God.

A sphere of higher intelligence would not be a place, dummy.

 

[watchingfromafar]

hey, also - what makes you believe jews in america are any different - they sold their souls for trump - nothing new there, history and all.

Trump had me fooled as well. Trump is most likely the greatest con artist in the last 100+ years.

Trump is going to prison. There, coning another con artist in prison will not be so easy. My bet is he will wind up being some body’s bitch.
-

 

[Indeependent]

I have been going in circles trying to envision “evil” as a human trait and I refused to accept the concept, until I learned this---

A government, the Israeli government using its IDF sniper teams to single out and murder Palestinian children.

That is “evil” in intent and purpose, through and through, to the core of the soul.
-

The Bolsheviks murdered entire classes of Russian Christians, including, specifically, the intelligent. That the purpose was dysgenic is shown by the fact they also murdered the children. Evil enough, in my book, but justifiable in a Darwinian sense to the depraved and monstrous. But here's what makes it truly evil: the Bolsheviks went out of their way, when slaughtering, to execute the children before and in the presence of the parents before executing the parents in order to ensure maximum agony--a gratuitous act so vile it defies comprehension.

Just now I noticed the odd anagrammatic relationship between VILE | EVIL | LEVI | => Levi being the Babylonian Pharisee who brought the tribe of Judah under the Talmudic yoke, on whom Israel, joining humanity, turned its back--the direct religious ancestor of the BoLshEVIks.

Never mind that the Russian Christians spent a few centuries doing that exact same thing to entire Jewish villages.

 

[hobelim]

A sphere of higher intelligence would not be a place, dummy.

Look up the word sphere.....dummy

Where do you think that otherworldly beings with the "semblance of a hand" come from?

 

[ding]

A sphere of higher intelligence would not be a place, dummy.

Look up the word sphere.....dummy

Where do you think that otherworldly beings with the "semblance of a hand" come from?

It isn't otherwordly, dummy. We are otherwordly. Our existence was created. God's existence wasn't created. God is existence. God is reality.

You said, "Heaven, is an actual place." It's not. There is no literal heaven and there is no literal hell. Looking up the word sphere or semblance of hand won't change that.

 

[watchingfromafar]

Never mind that the Russian Christians spent a few centuries doing that exact same thing to entire Jewish villages.

Indeependent, I feel your grief but do not pretend that Jews were the only ones persecuted, you should be grateful the Jews were not driven to extinction.

The first recorded anti-Jewish riots took place in Alexandria in the year 38 CE, followed by the more known riot of 66 CE. Other notable events took place in Europe during the Middle Ages. Jewish communities were targeted in the Black Death Jewish persecutions of 1348–1350, in Toulon in 1348, the Massacre of 1391 in Barcelona as well as in other Catalan cities, during the Erfurt massacre (1349), the Basel massacre, massacres in Aragon and in Flanders, as well as the "Valentine's Day" Strasbourg pogrom of 1349. Some 510 Jewish communities were destroyed during this period, extending further to the Brussels massacre of 1370. On Holy Saturday of 1389, a pogrom began in Prague that led to the burning of the Jewish quarter, the killing of many Jews, and the suicide of many Jews trapped in the main synagogue; the number of dead was estimated at 400–500 men, women and children.

The brutal murders of Jews and Poles occurred during the Khmelnytsky Uprising of 1648–1657 in present-day Ukraine. Modern historians give estimates of the scale of the murders by Khmelnytsky's Cossacks ranging between 40,000 and 100,000 men, women and children, or perhaps many more.
Pogrom - Wikipedia
World Genocides
9,350,000 Jews by Germany
7,650,000 Polish Catholics by Germany
7,500,000 Ukrainians by USSR
3,000,000 Cambodians
1,750.000 Kazakh
1,500,000 Amenians were totally exterminated
List of genocides by death toll - Wikipedia

American Indians who were driven to extension
Apache, Cherokee, Odawa and Navajo among others

Indeependent, you are not alone in your grief. At least the Jews survived, many others did not.
Indeependent, just do not use your Jewish history to justify what you do/say today.
-

 

[Indeependent]

Never mind that the Russian Christians spent a few centuries doing that exact same thing to entire Jewish villages.

Indeependent, I feel your grief but do not pretend that Jews were the only ones persecuted, you should be grateful the Jews were not driven to extinction.

The first recorded anti-Jewish riots took place in Alexandria in the year 38 CE, followed by the more known riot of 66 CE. Other notable events took place in Europe during the Middle Ages. Jewish communities were targeted in the Black Death Jewish persecutions of 1348–1350, in Toulon in 1348, the Massacre of 1391 in Barcelona as well as in other Catalan cities, during the Erfurt massacre (1349), the Basel massacre, massacres in Aragon and in Flanders, as well as the "Valentine's Day" Strasbourg pogrom of 1349. Some 510 Jewish communities were destroyed during this period, extending further to the Brussels massacre of 1370. On Holy Saturday of 1389, a pogrom began in Prague that led to the burning of the Jewish quarter, the killing of many Jews, and the suicide of many Jews trapped in the main synagogue; the number of dead was estimated at 400–500 men, women and children.

The brutal murders of Jews and Poles occurred during the Khmelnytsky Uprising of 1648–1657 in present-day Ukraine. Modern historians give estimates of the scale of the murders by Khmelnytsky's Cossacks ranging between 40,000 and 100,000 men, women and children, or perhaps many more.
Pogrom - Wikipedia
World Genocides
9,350,000 Jews by Germany
7,650,000 Polish Catholics by Germany
7,500,000 Ukrainians by USSR
3,000,000 Cambodians
1,750.000 Kazakh
1,500,000 Amenians were totally exterminated
List of genocides by death toll - Wikipedia

American Indians who were driven to extension
Apache, Cherokee, Odawa and Navajo among others

Indeependent, you are not alone in your grief. At least the Jews survived, many others did not.
Indeependent, just do not use your Jewish history to justify what you do/say today.
-

At least you've finally reached the point where you include Jews in that list.
Revenge is sweet.

 

[watchingfromafar]

Revenge is sweet.

No my sweet plump dumpling, "revenge" is the devil's tool
Totally against the Lords teachings using Jesus' as His voice.
Revenge was not in Jesus' vocabulary.
The devil seems to be your godfather

You be my man, indeependent !!!!​

-

 

[Indeependent]

Revenge is sweet.

No my sweet plump dumpling, "revenge" is the devil's tool
Totally against the Lords teachings using Jesus' as His voice.
Revenge was not in Jesus' vocabulary.
The devil seems to be your godfather

View attachment 512895
You be my man, indeependent !!!!​

-

The Romans did a good job of convincing suckers to take a beating and like it.

 

[Rigby5]

GOD selected a representative group that were suppose to be the beacon of GOD (HIS representatives/missionaries) to the other nations. And in fact Joseph would be GOD's emissary the the nation of EGYPT, Solomon would influence the surrounding kingdoms, as Daniel would be the the emissary to BABYLON, and Ezekiel the PERSIANS, etc... This group would be the linage of the MESSIAH --- who would make salvation possible for the entire world.

I always wondered by any god would have to enlist humans to convince other people to believe in him.

Why not just appear to everyone at the same time ?

God didn't enlist me and I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.

I am defending my beliefs from attacks from others.

So now you're comparing yourself to Moses and the others that god allegedly spoke to?

Not at all. I have no idea how you even made that leap in logic. God didn't enlist me and I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I am defending my beliefs from attacks from others.

But in the OT he did enlist people to bring his message to others.

If he was indeed all powerful why did he have to send Moses the 10 Commandments? Why not just appear to everyone on the entire planet and declare himself?

He did; King David wrote a hymn about it.
The nations were happy eating pork and committing adultery.

Wrong.
Eating pork is not a sin and is a good idea as long as you cook it sufficiently.
And there is not any other primate that is monogamous.
There is no benefit to being monogamous or any reason at all to assume humans are or should be monogamous.
It should be clear God made no such edicts, and those claiming he did are just liars.

Humans aren't exactly monogamous

Exactly.
If you believe in Evolution, (and everyone should), then you look to ancestor primates to see how humans should naturally be.
And guess what, there is not a single monogamous primate.
So there is no way humans could or should be monogamous.

 

[ding]

GOD selected a representative group that were suppose to be the beacon of GOD (HIS representatives/missionaries) to the other nations. And in fact Joseph would be GOD's emissary the the nation of EGYPT, Solomon would influence the surrounding kingdoms, as Daniel would be the the emissary to BABYLON, and Ezekiel the PERSIANS, etc... This group would be the linage of the MESSIAH --- who would make salvation possible for the entire world.

I always wondered by any god would have to enlist humans to convince other people to believe in him.

Why not just appear to everyone at the same time ?

God didn't enlist me and I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.

I am defending my beliefs from attacks from others.

So now you're comparing yourself to Moses and the others that god allegedly spoke to?

Not at all. I have no idea how you even made that leap in logic. God didn't enlist me and I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I am defending my beliefs from attacks from others.

But in the OT he did enlist people to bring his message to others.

If he was indeed all powerful why did he have to send Moses the 10 Commandments? Why not just appear to everyone on the entire planet and declare himself?

He did; King David wrote a hymn about it.
The nations were happy eating pork and committing adultery.

Wrong.
Eating pork is not a sin and is a good idea as long as you cook it sufficiently.
And there is not any other primate that is monogamous.
There is no benefit to being monogamous or any reason at all to assume humans are or should be monogamous.
It should be clear God made no such edicts, and those claiming he did are just liars.

Humans aren't exactly monogamous

Exactly.
If you believe in Evolution, (and everyone should), then you look to ancestor primates to see how humans should naturally be.
And guess what, there is not a single monogamous primate.
So there is no way humans could or should be monogamous.

And yet it is exactly that way. Which can then only mean that your assumption that there is no way humans could or should be monogamous is wrong.

 

[Rigby5]

GOD selected a representative group that were suppose to be the beacon of GOD (HIS representatives/missionaries) to the other nations. And in fact Joseph would be GOD's emissary the the nation of EGYPT, Solomon would influence the surrounding kingdoms, as Daniel would be the the emissary to BABYLON, and Ezekiel the PERSIANS, etc... This group would be the linage of the MESSIAH --- who would make salvation possible for the entire world.

I always wondered by any god would have to enlist humans to convince other people to believe in him.

Why not just appear to everyone at the same time ?

God didn't enlist me and I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.

I am defending my beliefs from attacks from others.

So now you're comparing yourself to Moses and the others that god allegedly spoke to?

Not at all. I have no idea how you even made that leap in logic. God didn't enlist me and I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I am defending my beliefs from attacks from others.

But in the OT he did enlist people to bring his message to others.

If he was indeed all powerful why did he have to send Moses the 10 Commandments? Why not just appear to everyone on the entire planet and declare himself?

He did; King David wrote a hymn about it.
The nations were happy eating pork and committing adultery.

Wrong.
Eating pork is not a sin and is a good idea as long as you cook it sufficiently.
And there is not any other primate that is monogamous.
There is no benefit to being monogamous or any reason at all to assume humans are or should be monogamous.
It should be clear God made no such edicts, and those claiming he did are just liars.

Humans aren't exactly monogamous

Exactly.
If you believe in Evolution, (and everyone should), then you look to ancestor primates to see how humans should naturally be.
And guess what, there is not a single monogamous primate.
So there is no way humans could or should be monogamous.

And yet it is exactly that way. Which can then only mean that your assumption that there is no way humans could or should be monogamous is wrong.

No, because we could be all conditioned to believe monogamy is natural when it actually isn't.
For example, there are many native cultures where the men and women live in dormitories, and do not get married.
Ancient Spartans were like that for males, but not females.

 

[Street Juice]

I have been going in circles trying to envision “evil” as a human trait and I refused to accept the concept, until I learned this---

A government, the Israeli government using its IDF sniper teams to single out and murder Palestinian children.

That is “evil” in intent and purpose, through and through, to the core of the soul.
-

The Bolsheviks murdered entire classes of Russian Christians, including, specifically, the intelligent. That the purpose was dysgenic is shown by the fact they also murdered the children. Evil enough, in my book, but justifiable in a Darwinian sense to the depraved and monstrous. But here's what makes it truly evil: the Bolsheviks went out of their way, when slaughtering, to execute the children before and in the presence of the parents before executing the parents in order to ensure maximum agony--a gratuitous act so vile it defies comprehension.

Just now I noticed the odd anagrammatic relationship between VILE | EVIL | LEVI | => Levi being the Babylonian Pharisee who brought the tribe of Judah under the Talmudic yoke, on whom Israel, joining humanity, turned its back--the direct religious ancestor of the BoLshEVIks.

Never mind that the Russian Christians spent a few centuries doing that exact same thing to entire Jewish villages.

Oh, of course, and for no reason whatsoever, too, I assume. And the Tsar's soldiers used your grandmother for sword practice, too, I bet. So the Christians had it coming when the Jews slaughtered 66 million of them. In Germany, on the other had the Jews did NOT have it coming when they were killed by Nazis. There, again, as always, the Jews were 100% innocent and the Nazis were just evil and driven by rage that just popped up out the ground one Wednesday afternoon around 3 pm. The Jews had already killed 20 million Christians in Russia by the time Hitler took power, and they had attempted a Bolshevik coup in Germany, but, still, completely innocent. Solzhenitsyn gives a full accounting