Seek Peace, Pursue Justice in Israel-Palestine

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, you keep saying this.

Irrelevant.

Not once.

VERY relevant !

And yes, there have been offers made to thew Palestinians which included 97% of the West Bank. They refused. They could have had a state 10 times over by now. But instead, they chose the path violence, and where has it gotten them ??? You reap what you sow !!!

The only offer ever made to the Palestinians was to give most of their country to Israel.

Such a deal!

(COMMENT)

You keep saying it was "their country." It was not.

As you said earlier. It went from Ottoman Rule, to the Mandate, to a partition with the State of Israel.

You do, of course, realize that the Hashemite Kingdom was made from the Partition.

The Palestinians are perennials victims, with sociological behaviors that prohibits peace, and promotes conflict; refusing to accept international authority accept when they find a clause that suits them. They are a localized lawless disruptive influence and represent a danger to themselves, their neighbors, and regional security.

The Palestinian have set the conditions for their own quarantined situation. Until they alter their perceptions of reality, embrace peaceful paradigms, those conditions will be the most humanitarian way of containment.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, you keep saying this.

VERY relevant !

And yes, there have been offers made to thew Palestinians which included 97% of the West Bank. They refused. They could have had a state 10 times over by now. But instead, they chose the path violence, and where has it gotten them ??? You reap what you sow !!!

The only offer ever made to the Palestinians was to give most of their country to Israel.

Such a deal!

(COMMENT)

You keep saying it was "their country." It was not.

As you said earlier. It went from Ottoman Rule, to the Mandate, to a partition with the State of Israel.

You do, of course, realize that the Hashemite Kingdom was made from the Partition.

The Palestinians are perennials victims, with sociological behaviors that prohibits peace, and promotes conflict; refusing to accept international authority accept when they find a clause that suits them. They are a localized lawless disruptive influence and represent a danger to themselves, their neighbors, and regional security.

The Palestinian have set the conditions for their own quarantined situation. Until they alter their perceptions of reality, embrace peaceful paradigms, those conditions will be the most humanitarian way of containment.

Most Respectfully,
R

Funny how Tinmore never showed us when Palestine became an official state.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, you keep saying this.

VERY relevant !

And yes, there have been offers made to thew Palestinians which included 97% of the West Bank. They refused. They could have had a state 10 times over by now. But instead, they chose the path violence, and where has it gotten them ??? You reap what you sow !!!

The only offer ever made to the Palestinians was to give most of their country to Israel.

Such a deal!

(COMMENT)

You keep saying it was "their country." It was not.

As you said earlier. It went from Ottoman Rule, to the Mandate, to a partition with the State of Israel.

You do, of course, realize that the Hashemite Kingdom was made from the Partition.

The Palestinians are perennials victims, with sociological behaviors that prohibits peace, and promotes conflict; refusing to accept international authority accept when they find a clause that suits them. They are a localized lawless disruptive influence and represent a danger to themselves, their neighbors, and regional security.

The Palestinian have set the conditions for their own quarantined situation. Until they alter their perceptions of reality, embrace peaceful paradigms, those conditions will be the most humanitarian way of containment.

Most Respectfully,
R

You keep saying it was "their country." It was not.

If it did not belong to the people who lived there who did it belong to?

A bunch of foreigners from Europe?

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, you keep saying this.

The only offer ever made to the Palestinians was to give most of their country to Israel.

Such a deal!

(COMMENT)

You keep saying it was "their country." It was not.

As you said earlier. It went from Ottoman Rule, to the Mandate, to a partition with the State of Israel.

You do, of course, realize that the Hashemite Kingdom was made from the Partition.

The Palestinians are perennials victims, with sociological behaviors that prohibits peace, and promotes conflict; refusing to accept international authority accept when they find a clause that suits them. They are a localized lawless disruptive influence and represent a danger to themselves, their neighbors, and regional security.

The Palestinian have set the conditions for their own quarantined situation. Until they alter their perceptions of reality, embrace peaceful paradigms, those conditions will be the most humanitarian way of containment.

Most Respectfully,
R

You keep saying it was "their country." It was not.

If it did not belong to the people who lived there who did it belong to?

A bunch of foreigners from Europe?

Nice deflection.
When did Palestine become a country? When was their declaration on independence ?

 

[toastman]

Better yet, when did the 'Palestinians' rule any of the land that is now known as Israel ?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, you keep saying this.

The only offer ever made to the Palestinians was to give most of their country to Israel.

Such a deal!

(COMMENT)

You keep saying it was "their country." It was not.

As you said earlier. It went from Ottoman Rule, to the Mandate, to a partition with the State of Israel.

You do, of course, realize that the Hashemite Kingdom was made from the Partition.

The Palestinians are perennials victims, with sociological behaviors that prohibits peace, and promotes conflict; refusing to accept international authority accept when they find a clause that suits them. They are a localized lawless disruptive influence and represent a danger to themselves, their neighbors, and regional security.

The Palestinian have set the conditions for their own quarantined situation. Until they alter their perceptions of reality, embrace peaceful paradigms, those conditions will be the most humanitarian way of containment.

Most Respectfully,
R

Funny how Tinmore never showed us when Palestine became an official state.

A dispute regarding the status of the territories was settled by an Arbitrator appointed by the Council of the League of Nations. It was decided that Palestine and Transjordan were newly created states according to the terms of the applicable post-war treaties.

State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, you keep saying this.


(COMMENT)

You keep saying it was "their country." It was not.

As you said earlier. It went from Ottoman Rule, to the Mandate, to a partition with the State of Israel.

You do, of course, realize that the Hashemite Kingdom was made from the Partition.

The Palestinians are perennials victims, with sociological behaviors that prohibits peace, and promotes conflict; refusing to accept international authority accept when they find a clause that suits them. They are a localized lawless disruptive influence and represent a danger to themselves, their neighbors, and regional security.

The Palestinian have set the conditions for their own quarantined situation. Until they alter their perceptions of reality, embrace peaceful paradigms, those conditions will be the most humanitarian way of containment.

Most Respectfully,
R

You keep saying it was "their country." It was not.

If it did not belong to the people who lived there who did it belong to?

A bunch of foreigners from Europe?

Nice deflection.
When did Palestine become a country? When was their declaration on independence ?

September 1948.

 

[toastman]

Answer my question. When did the Palestinians rule any of the land now know as Israel ??? Besides Gaza of course

 

[toastman]

If it did not belong to the people who lived there who did it belong to?

A bunch of foreigners from Europe?

Nice deflection.
When did Palestine become a country? When was their declaration on independence ?

September 1948.

Weird.. Last time I asked you that question, you said 1988. Make up your mind already !

 

[P F Tinmore]

Nice deflection.
When did Palestine become a country? When was their declaration on independence ?

September 1948.

Weird.. Last time I asked you that question, you said 1988. Make up your mind already !

Link?

For John Quigley Palestine's existence as a state predates the 1988 declaration. Tracing Palestine's status as an international entity back to the collapse of the Ottoman Empire after World War I, he recalls that the Palestine Mandate (1918–1948), an arrangement made under Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, held as its "ultimate objective", the "self-determination and independence of the people concerned." He says that in explicitly referring to the Covenant, the 1988 declaration was reaffirming an existing Palestinian statehood.[126] Noting that Palestine under the Mandate entered into bilateral treaties, including one with Great Britain, the Mandatory power, he cites this as an example of its "sovereignty" at that time. He also notes the corollary of the Stimson Doctrine and the customary prohibition on the use of force contained in the Restatement of Foreign Relations Law of the United States, "[a]n entity does not necessarily cease to be a state even if all of its territory has been occupied by a foreign power".[86]


State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[toastman]

September 1948.

Weird.. Last time I asked you that question, you said 1988. Make up your mind already !

Link?

For John Quigley Palestine's existence as a state predates the 1988 declaration. Tracing Palestine's status as an international entity back to the collapse of the Ottoman Empire after World War I, he recalls that the Palestine Mandate (1918–1948), an arrangement made under Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, held as its "ultimate objective", the "self-determination and independence of the people concerned." He says that in explicitly referring to the Covenant, the 1988 declaration was reaffirming an existing Palestinian statehood.[126] Noting that Palestine under the Mandate entered into bilateral treaties, including one with Great Britain, the Mandatory power, he cites this as an example of its "sovereignty" at that time. He also notes the corollary of the Stimson Doctrine and the customary prohibition on the use of force contained in the Restatement of Foreign Relations Law of the United States, "[a]n entity does not necessarily cease to be a state even if all of its territory has been occupied by a foreign power".[86]


State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Link ??? You want me to go through your post history?

It's possible I'm mistaken, but I recall you saying that

 

[toastman]

Considering the Palestinians NEVER ruled any of the land (except Gaza since 2005), it sure seems odd to say they have a country....

 

[P F Tinmore]

Considering the Palestinians NEVER ruled any of the land (except Gaza since 2005), it sure seems odd to say they have a country....

A people can be said to have realised its right to self-determination when they have either (1) established a sovereign and independent state;...

The right to self-determination - IHL

An independent state is the product of self determination not a prerequisite.

 

[toastman]

So you are acknowledging that the 'Palestinians' never ruled any of the land now known as Israel (except Gaza), correct ?

 

[toastman]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wMK12yytvY]Palestine never existed - YouTube[/ame]

 

[toastman]

Here you go Tinnie. This is a VERY overlooked fact, spoken by the 'Palestinian' leader himself, Yasser Arafart, I mean Arafat:

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.

Palestinian people do not exist

 

[P F Tinmore]

Here you go Tinnie. This is a VERY overlooked fact, spoken by the 'Palestinian' leader himself, Yasser Arafart, I mean Arafat:

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.

Palestinian people do not exist

World Nut Daily?

And people laugh at my links.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore; et al,

A couple points need made here.

September 1948.

Weird.. Last time I asked you that question, you said 1988. Make up your mind already !

Link?

For John Quigley Palestine's existence as a state predates the 1988 declaration. Tracing Palestine's status as an international entity back to the collapse of the Ottoman Empire after World War I, he recalls that the Palestine Mandate (1918–1948), an arrangement made under Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, held as its "ultimate objective", the "self-determination and independence of the people concerned." He says that in explicitly referring to the Covenant, the 1988 declaration was reaffirming an existing Palestinian statehood.[126] Noting that Palestine under the Mandate entered into bilateral treaties, including one with Great Britain, the Mandatory power, he cites this as an example of its "sovereignty" at that time. He also notes the corollary of the Stimson Doctrine and the customary prohibition on the use of force contained in the Restatement of Foreign Relations Law of the United States, "[a]n entity does not necessarily cease to be a state even if all of its territory has been occupied by a foreign power".[86]


State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(COMMENT)

The Covenant and its intentions are determined by the Coven, not the external. The Covenant and its implementation are for the Covent to determine and not the outside observer. The Palestinian does not tell the Coven what to do or how to implement its own rules and by-laws.

Your citation is an opinion, and not a directive or by-law. While one opinion of the intent is to suggest that the people under the mandate did not have the ability to stand on their own, another intent was to establish a Jewish National Home. In any event, again, the implementation of the Covenant is a matter for the Coven; not a matter for the Palestinian. They don't have a voice in the matter; yet, the Coven listened and deliberated on their concerns (more so then what was required given the Arab/Palestinian attitudes).

The Coven (LoN/UN) did not recognize the State of Palestine. While a number of people might make some convoluted argument to that effect, the Coven did not. In fact, the Coven, which the Palestine has argued both for and against, noted with regret that the Palestinian High Committee and the Arab League rejected the GA Resolution 181(II). It was in that document that the "Arab State" was mentioned and rejected. And that rejection expressed in no uncertain terms that "it does not exist."

It is a matter of interpretation as to who denies whom the "right of self-determination." But it is historically demonstrated that the Coven (LoN/UN) made the offer to the Jewish people and they accepted - exercising their "right of self-determination" and it was the Arab/Palestinian, that has for more than six decades, attempting to deny Israels right to exist --- their right to self-determination.

The Arab/Palestinian had more than ample opportunity to use peaceful means in the resolution of their dispute --- they refused. And the opportunities they had were diminished, not by the Israeli --- but through their own unsuccessful bids (multiple times) to secure territorial gains through violence. And then, incredulously, attempt to tell the Coven that everyone else is wrong and that the Israel is the aggressor.

Let's make it clear! The conflict is the making of the Palestinian People, the Arab neighbors, and the cohorts out of Iran. It can be turn-off at any time by this same ad hoc coalition.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Answer my question. When did the Palestinians rule any of the land now know as Israel ??? Besides Gaza of course

It is not a question of rule. It is a question of rights.

The only reason they have never ruled is because they were always subject to illegal external interference.

Violating their rights does not negate those rights.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore; et al,

A couple points need made here.

Weird.. Last time I asked you that question, you said 1988. Make up your mind already !

Link?

For John Quigley Palestine's existence as a state predates the 1988 declaration. Tracing Palestine's status as an international entity back to the collapse of the Ottoman Empire after World War I, he recalls that the Palestine Mandate (1918–1948), an arrangement made under Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, held as its "ultimate objective", the "self-determination and independence of the people concerned." He says that in explicitly referring to the Covenant, the 1988 declaration was reaffirming an existing Palestinian statehood.[126] Noting that Palestine under the Mandate entered into bilateral treaties, including one with Great Britain, the Mandatory power, he cites this as an example of its "sovereignty" at that time. He also notes the corollary of the Stimson Doctrine and the customary prohibition on the use of force contained in the Restatement of Foreign Relations Law of the United States, "[a]n entity does not necessarily cease to be a state even if all of its territory has been occupied by a foreign power".[86]


State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(COMMENT)

The Covenant and its intentions are determined by the Coven, not the external. The Covenant and its implementation are for the Covent to determine and not the outside observer. The Palestinian does not tell the Coven what to do or how to implement its own rules and by-laws.

Your citation is an opinion, and not a directive or by-law. While one opinion of the intent is to suggest that the people under the mandate did not have the ability to stand on their own, another intent was to establish a Jewish National Home. In any event, again, the implementation of the Covenant is a matter for the Coven; not a matter for the Palestinian. They don't have a voice in the matter; yet, the Coven listened and deliberated on their concerns (more so then what was required given the Arab/Palestinian attitudes).

It is difficult to follow your post because you are jumping all over the place trying to prove a point that is not there.

The League of Nations Covenant made no mention of a Jewish state or Jewish homeland. The beneficiaries of the mandates were the people not some foreigners out of Europe.

The Coven (LoN/UN) did not recognize the State of Palestine. While a number of people might make some convoluted argument to that effect, the Coven did not. In fact, the Coven, which the Palestine has argued both for and against, noted with regret that the Palestinian High Committee and the Arab League rejected the GA Resolution 181(II). It was in that document that the "Arab State" was mentioned and rejected. And that rejection expressed in no uncertain terms that "it does not exist."

Resolution 181 was a plan to get the Palestinians to cede land to the Zionists for their Jewish state. The Palestinians had the right to reject the plan and they did. The UN could not take Palestinian land without their permission and they didn't.

The Palestinians did not reject statehood. They rejected partition.

It is a matter of interpretation as to who denies whom the "right of self-determination." But it is historically demonstrated that the Coven (LoN/UN) made the offer to the Jewish people and they accepted - exercising their "right of self-determination" and it was the Arab/Palestinian, that has for more than six decades, attempting to deny Israels right to exist --- their right to self-determination.

My interpretation of self determination is simple. Natives have it. Foreigners don't.

You have never shown me where foreigners got the right to self determination.

The Arab/Palestinian had more than ample opportunity to use peaceful means in the resolution of their dispute --- they refused. And the opportunities they had were diminished, not by the Israeli --- but through their own unsuccessful bids (multiple times) to secure territorial gains through violence. And then, incredulously, attempt to tell the Coven that everyone else is wrong and that the Israel is the aggressor.

Let's make it clear! The conflict is the making of the Palestinian People, the Arab neighbors, and the cohorts out of Iran. It can be turn-off at any time by this same ad hoc coalition.

Most Respectfully,
R