Save Energy - Paint Roofs and High-ways White!

[Care4all]

I have no idea what the net effect would be, but certainly white surfaces reflect more light (and hence create less heat) than darker surfaces will.

Absolutely correct, editec.

 

[editec]

MM retorts

I suppose you don't understand the theory of global warming and how the molecules in the air absorb sunlight and convert it into heat.

I think you suppose incorrectly about what Edthecynic understands and does not understand

And yes, reflected light headed back into space (some of it, at least) will encounter molecules of some types of greenhouse gases which will be absorbed and converted to heat, undoubtably.

But the fact is that the more reflected light there is heading back into space, the less of that light will be converted into heat.

That is not subject to dispute by anyone who understands basic science.

Actually reflecting light is one of the reasons that losing the ice caps will accelearte global warming, isn't it?

Because the ice and snow of those caps reflect more light back into space than the darker land mass or even the water (at the north pole) which exists under those caps.

If this is still confusing you I invite you to test it by standing on a two lane blacktop highway on a sunny summer day and then stand on a concrete highway on that same day.

I promise you the two land blacktop highway will be much much hotter than the lighter colored concrete highway.

 

[Care4all]

When i was in Bermuda on vacay a couple of years ago, all of the roofs were white, and all of the roofs were hip roofs, that had channels in them to collect rain water for their own personal use, dropped down in to a cistern in their lower level basements, then filtered and used as drinking water.

There is nothing wrong with thinking outside of the box imho.

As far as roofs being painted, not certain that can really be done, but no reason that future homes built in the south, could not be built with lighter roofs or built to recapture rain water for drinking....we are behind the times on these type of things.

And if an asphault can be developed that is not black or dark grey that can be topped on our roads, why not? Why complain???

care

Well--again building codes reflect that R38 insulation be put into the attic--R-38 is the equivalent of 38 single pane windows. Therefore, there is no benefit of painting your roof white--your air-conditioning bill will be the same.

The roads? Going from black-top to white-top? Would reflect heat back into the air--not absorb it into the road.

oh gees oreo, you are uninformed on this topic....why don't you do some of your own reading up on this before jumping on the i hate obama wagon, without knowing the facts about this....?

Heat is not reflected back in to the atmosphere, light is reflected back in to the atmosphere without converting in to HEAT.

White roofed homes are KNOWN to keep your house cooler....look at Bermuda and their purposely made white roof system.....people knew this 400 years ago when their roofs were built...yet you now, try to change the science out there to fit your own ill logic?

White reflects light, black absorbs light and converts it to heat....i learned this 30 years ago in school, didn't you?

care

 

[Old Rocks]

Who's gonna pay for it? Who's gonna get filthy rich off of it? What would be the ENVIRONMENTAL consequences?

Can you say job security

Haha yeah, that would be one of The Obama's "green" jobs!

That and changing the oil in wind turbines twice a year!

Damn, what an idiot. Oil, particularly the type used in gearboxes is easily recycled.

As for white roofs, there is a product on the market called Snow Roof. Not only makes your roof white, but extends the life of an older roof by many years, and seals it against rain at the same time.

 

[Old Rocks]

The rays of the sun don't become heat until they ABSORBED and dark colors absorb the most heat. So reflecting the suns rays before they are converted into heat will slow global warming.

I haven't dodged anything, I pointed out the stupidity of thinking that reflecting the sun's rays back into space will further warm the planet!!! The suns rays have to be converted to heat and if they are reflected back into space they are not being converted into heat. It has nothing to do with air conditioning or fossil fuels, that's just your red herring. The more of the sun's rays that are reflected the less rays get converted to heat and less heat is generated globally. It's pretty obvious since we don't use fossil fuel to air condition the roads.

As far as solar panels go, everybody does not have them on their roofs and there certainly are no solar panels on the roads. So that's just more stupidity on your part.

You just want to whine about President Obama and you don't care how scientifically ignorant it makes you look. Had Bush or Reagan said the same thing you would be calling it brilliant.

I suppose you don't understand the theory of global warming and how the molecules in the air absorb sunlight and convert it into heat. And yes, you continue to cherry-pick points you'll respond to, while dodging others which you cannot respond to. You also seem to make the ASSumption that I listen to Limbaugh. I do not.

I simply understand what you do not -- that this is really stupid and if a Boooosh appointee had said it, you would be all over it letting the world know how stupid it really is.

Partisan hacks such as yourself blindly, instinctively rush in to defend The Obama, with willing suspension of intellect. Just like any science fiction moviegoer. Rooting for the hero and enjoying the show is much more important to you than the facts and the science are.

Your willing ignorance is surpassed only by your dishonesty.

Good lord. Senility rampant, indeed. GHGs absorb a percentage of the energy that is reflected. A much smaller percentage than a black surface absorbs. Simple science that any third grader can understand.

 

[Ravi]

I don't know about painting roads but white rooves save lots of energy in hot climates...Floridians certainly know this.

 

[jgbkab]

I don't know about painting roads but white rooves save lots of energy in hot climates...Floridians certainly know this.

All you have to do is look at the roads and highways in the summertime. You can see the heat radiating from the road on surface streets whereas you don't see it on the interstates that are made out of some white material (here in the SE).

 

[editec]

So its agreed then?

Henceforth debating basic laws of physics is probably not worth our time?

Happy to hear it.

 

[WillowTree]

are black people causing global warming?

yes! their skin does not deflect the sun well, and they fart way too much!

 

[WillowTree]

I don't know about painting roads but white rooves save lots of energy in hot climates...Floridians certainly know this.

no baby,, planting CO2 eating trees produces cool.

 

[Ravi]

So its agreed then?

Henceforth debating basic laws of physics is probably not worth our time?

Happy to hear it.

Pretty much. If the Obama administration said that brushing your teeth reduces cavities the rightwingers would stop brushing their teeth.

 

[Care4all]

there are all kinds of products out there already that does this....? what is being disputed on it and WHY?

google is your friend guys and gals....gaining knowledge is good imo.

A revolutionary new way to insulate, repair, maintain & preserve roof & wall systems, both exterior & interior.

Energy Saving Roof Coating

Thermal-Ply21 Elastomeric Coating (TPEC), blended with our proprietary Micro-Cells, was designed and developed to reduce heat for industrial, commercial, agricultural, and residential use. On exterior or interior surfaces, including unprimed and galvanized metal in any climate. As little as .5 to .8 mm of this Glass Sphere Thermal Barrier Liquid Applied Roof Coating, can give savings equal to 152+ millimeters of other types of insulation. Insulation values of R-20 can be realized.


Unlike some paint and roof coatings that make insulation claims based solely on reflectivity, TPEC creates a Thermal Barrier that dissipates heat away from the area where applied. These coatings, combined with the Micro-Cells, bonds to surfaces other products cannot, such as unprimed or galvanized metal, tile, asphalt, bituminous or composition roofs, and wood that is subject to swelling and shrinking.


TPEC is liquid applied, insulates itself as well as the surface it protects from weather damage, and it can last 2 to 3 times longer than conventional products. Because it is liquid applied, TPEC becomes a one piece rubber like membrane roof or wall system. The temperature insulation properties unique to this coating also makes it a noise insulator.


Every exterior roof and wall system has a common enemy, the sun, where conventional dark-colored roofs and dark colored walls tend to absorb the sun's rays and break down due to UV degradation. TPEC can actually reflect up to 90% of the sun's heat, radiation, and destructive UV rays.


This heat reduction can keep the surface temperature cooler in summer than any regular coated or covered wall or roof. The reduced UV degradation allows the surface to remain highly flexible, so it can tolerate the expansion and contraction (Thermal Shock) of the substrate without cracking. Even at surface temperatures as low as -26°C. High durability translates into less maintenance, while repairs only require acrylic caulk or a roof coating touchup. All of this amounts to years or additional life for the wall or roof.

Energy Star
TPEC is Energy Star Rated

In light of the work that the U.S. General Services Administration (GSA) Public Buildings Service (PBS) is involved in the sustainable design area, there is considerable discussion about the use of “low VOC” paints and roof coatings GSA and other governmental agencies use in new construction and repair/alteration processes. The technology of “low VOC” paints and coatings such as TPEC, makes their use a very viable option in pursuing environmentally preferable products and promoting a more sustainable environment.

VOC's are any organic compounds that are in a gaseous state of evaporate at typical ambient temperatures. VOC's include a variety of chemicals, such as benzene, carbon tetrachloride, and styrene. These are highly toxic and have been proven to cause both short-term and long-term health effects. These health effects include temporary shortness of breath, asthma, lung irritation and chronic diseases such a pulmonary fibrosis.

VOC's are often thought of as the sole indicator for how healthy a paint or coating is. Chemicals in paints and coatings that offgas (volatilize) are most likely to be inhaled and affect our health. VOC's adversely impact the ambient air quality. Outside, VOC's may react with other pollutants, for example; the reaction of VOC's and nitrous oxides from combustion of fossil fuels to create ground level ozone and photochemical smog. The reduction of VOC emissions can significantly lessen the impact on global warming. The use of TPEC with it's very low VOC's, 50 grams per liter, assist in the reduction of these emissions.

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) standard limits the amount of VOC's in paints and roof coatings; it is based on the reduction of the ground-level ozone generated. The table below shows the EPA standards in comparison with the California South Coast Air Management Distr4ict's and Green Seal standards for low VOC flat and non-flat interior and exterior paints and coatings.

 

[Oddball]

I simply understand what you do not -- that this is really stupid and if a Boooosh appointee had said it, you would be all over it letting the world know how stupid it really is.

Partisan hacks such as yourself blindly, instinctively rush in to defend The Obama, with willing suspension of intellect. Just like any science fiction moviegoer. Rooting for the hero and enjoying the show is much more important to you than the facts and the science are.

Your willing ignorance is surpassed only by your dishonesty.

They're like the dipshits who believe that pro rasslin' is real!!

 

[Sinatra]

I simply understand what you do not -- that this is really stupid and if a Boooosh appointee had said it, you would be all over it letting the world know how stupid it really is.

Partisan hacks such as yourself blindly, instinctively rush in to defend The Obama, with willing suspension of intellect. Just like any science fiction moviegoer. Rooting for the hero and enjoying the show is much more important to you than the facts and the science are.

Your willing ignorance is surpassed only by your dishonesty.

They're like the dipshits who believe that pro rasslin' is real!!

Liberals are nerds - not the smart ones mind you, but the Star Trek convention style version of nerds...

Obama says paint my roof white! Yes!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Red Dawn]

Obama's green guru calls for white roofs - Telegraph

"Professor Steven Chu, the US Energy Secretary, said the unusual proposal would mean homes in hot countries would save energy and money on air conditioning by deflecting the sun's rays.

More pale surfaces could also slow global warming by reflecting heat into space rather than allowing it to be absorbed by dark surfaces where it is trapped by greenhouse gases and increases temperatures.

The Nobel Prize-winning physicist said the US was not considering any large scale "geo-engineering" projects where science is used to reverse global warming, but was in favour of "white roofs everywhere".

He said lightening roofs and roads in urban environments would offset the global warming effects of all the cars in the world for 11 years.

"If you look at all the buildings and if you make the roofs white and if you make the pavement more of a concrete type of colour rather than a black type of colour and if you do that uniformally, that would be the equivalent of... reducing the carbon emissions due to all the cars in the world by 11 years – just taking them off the road for 11 years," he said."

You might think that it's a joke that he's recommending roofs and highways be painted, but listen up; at least some who speak out for Obama are saying just that.

Never mind the impracticality of painting roofs period, the heat that is produced by the roof-plane escapes by convection from vents in the ridge and the eaves. Present requirements of R-38 resistance to heat/cold penetration in building codes have reached the point of diminishing returns for the cost of increasing the insulation and the dollars saved. Only flat roofs where insulation is limited by it's thickness, or the space is not accessible would be only improveable by painting them white, and they are for the most part covered with a light colored aggregate mineral surface already.

How many highways are really black, even "black-topped" or asphalt paved surfaces turn a medium grey in just a few years. In subdivisions we "coat" our black-top drives to make them look black and fresh once again. Highways paved with concrete are a pretty light grey immediately.

I for one question if this suggestion should even be given the light of day, especially in a public forum as is being reported.

There is an advantage to letting these people talk their fool heads off; the American people are for the most part practical, and recognize when they are being led by fools.

"In a wide-ranging discussion at the three-day Nobel laureate Symposium in London, the Professor described climate change as a "crisis situation"

It almost seems that he went there unprepared with anything better, to pull that idea out of his hat at a symposium like this one.

Do you have a degree in engineering, and have you done the calculations as to the energy efficiency impact?

No?


Then I assume you have absolutely no idea of the science or engineering that's been done on this issue, and are simply reacting emotionally.

 

[Avatar4321]

LimpBoy has everything to do with this thread, you morons are stupidly parroting his rationalizations.

No one mentioned Rush until you arrived. We all think this man is an idiot for obvious reasons. Pretty much the same reasons you are an idiot. Yet, despite this you still ignore facts.

And his "logic" is flawed because it is not HEAT that is reflected!!!!!!!!

Duh you freaking idiot! This is exactly why painting the roof is an absurd idea to stop "global warming"! And yet you are defending this moron by attacking Rush for pointing out the stupidity of the argument!

That is very very basic science. LimpBoy is not taking anything to its conclusion because he is using his OWN stupid premiss that white reflects HEAT.

The premise put for by Cho in the Obama administration is that painting the roof and highways white will stop global warming by reflecting the suns rays. He is the one arguing that heat is reflected and implying that the color of a substance is at all effected by the heat it absorbs rather than the light it reflects.

But you are so freaking stupid that you cant see that Rush is absolutely correct in pointing out the ridiculousness of the position. A position you are defending.

No climatologist ever said white reflects heat, not even the deniers. Only LimpBoy and his ditto-dopers are stupid enough not to know white reflects the rays of the sun, ONLY the rays that are NOT reflected are converted to heat.

Rush isnt the one making the claim!

Now what I did with the boiling on white snow was illustrate LimpBoy's absurdity by being absurd, LimpBoy's tactic turned against him. But since you are too stupid to know white does not reflect heat, it went completely over your head. ROFLMAO

I cant believe someone this stupid actually exists. Im going to make this as clear as possible.

Color, does not determine the tempature of an object. Your statements do not illustrate absurdity of anyone, they illustrate your own stupidity.

This is why Cho is a moron. Because color doesnt determine heat. Rush Limbaugh has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Ill try to make it even easier by using small words.

Color... Heat.... Not related.

Do you understand this yet?

 

[American Horse]

Do you have a degree in engineering, and have you done the calculations as to the energy efficiency impact?

No?

Red, you pose pretty tough standards on those who criticize ideas coming out of this administration.

Then I assume you have absolutely no idea of the science or engineering that's been done on this issue, and are simply reacting emotionally.

And I can make the same assumption about you, and your resistance to opposition. You are emotionally invested.

I would have to have pretty high powered qualifications to fully evaluate the merits of this proposal, and if I did have those qualifications I probably wouldn’t be spending my time here on this forum board, which I assume is more about good humored comment and an exchange of ideas than a meeting place for engineers, chemists, and scientists. So we don't need those quals to make posts rasing questions about public policy by an administration.

But I do have 30+ years of practical experience in all aspects of roof systems, applicable codes, their construction, ventilation, and their costs; also roads and paved surfaces of all types that we see in use today; and I did spend 4-years as an engineer doing cost benefit analysis. I hope all that at least gave me a sense of proportion which is the first element of making sound judgments.

I recall an early pronouncement by the president as candidate himself that With proper tire inflation we would be able to conserve as much oil as might be produced by offshore drilling [/paraphrase]. How much study was put into that before it was pronounced?

Here is some information to factor in when considering this proposal of painting roofs and roads:

Most heat inside a home's living space is gained from the ceiling and west facing windows and mostly during and after the afternoon hours. Pitched roof (as well as flat roofs which are uncommon in residential construction) attic spaces are presently required to be insulated to R-38 resistance value and properly vented to allow the escape of hot (and humid) air from enclosed attics. Additional inches of insulation above an R-38 are not cost/benefit effective, so the most cost effective model is already prescribed. So reduction of energy useage for air conditioning must not be what this proposal is designed to do.

Therefore its intent must be to reduce excess amounts of heat being released from black surfaces into the atmosphere by replacing them with lighter colored surfaces.

The most absorbent roof or paving color is black, the most reflective is white. How many roofs are truly black? On average the colors are somewhere in between highest and lowest reflectivity. A better option than “painting” roofs would be to simply mandate all new roofs and replacement roofs, as they come up, be white or light grey shingles. We will certainly not mandate that roofs be a single (or a multiple) coat of this paint over existing roofs or over bare plywood even in a thick membrane rubberized emulsion layer for obvious reasons of difficulty of making repairs later and aesthetics/pride of ownership. Modern flat roof surfaces which have the worse case angle for absorption of heat from sun light are almost always covered by a light colored aggregate mineral surface.

The same sorts of considerations apply to highways, roads, streets, and parking lot paving. After being paved with "black-top" (asphalt) within a year the new surface, black at first has moderated to a grey, and in a couple of years it has moderated to a light grey very close to the color of concrete which is well known to be sun-heat reflective. To appreciate the difference I’m describing stand shoeless on a slab of concrete and then a totally black surface at 3:00 Pm under a hot sun.

If this proposal is based on black pavement there is only the need to wait a year or two and the problem of excessive heat absorption and release into the atmosphere is solved by natural weathering.

Because of these considerations I'm much inclined to conclude that painting roads and roofs white will be very uncommon, regardless of the policy pronouncements of this administration

 

[alan1]

When i was in Bermuda on vacay a couple of years ago, all of the roofs were white, and all of the roofs were hip roofs, that had channels in them to collect rain water for their own personal use, dropped down in to a cistern in their lower level basements, then filtered and used as drinking water.

There is nothing wrong with thinking outside of the box imho.

As far as roofs being painted, not certain that can really be done, but no reason that future homes built in the south, could not be built with lighter roofs or built to recapture rain water for drinking....we are behind the times on these type of things.

And if an asphault can be developed that is not black or dark grey that can be topped on our roads, why not? Why complain???

care

Rain barrels are a great idea for capturing the rain water to water hanging baskets and other plants in the summer. We meant to make one last year and never got around to it. Thanks for a reminder!

But wait a minute, I pay the city a tax for storm water run-off. Screw it, if I have to pay for storm water run-off, they should install the cistern for me.

 

[edthecynic]

LimpBoy has everything to do with this thread, you morons are stupidly parroting his rationalizations.

No one mentioned Rush until you arrived. We all think this man is an idiot for obvious reasons. Pretty much the same reasons you are an idiot. Yet, despite this you still ignore facts.

And his "logic" is flawed because it is not HEAT that is reflected!!!!!!!!

Duh you freaking idiot! This is exactly why painting the roof is an absurd idea to stop "global warming"! And yet you are defending this moron by attacking Rush for pointing out the stupidity of the argument!




The premise put for by Cho in the Obama administration is that painting the roof and highways white will stop global warming by reflecting the suns rays. He is the one arguing that heat is reflected and implying that the color of a substance is at all effected by the heat it absorbs rather than the light it reflects.

But you are so freaking stupid that you cant see that Rush is absolutely correct in pointing out the ridiculousness of the position. A position you are defending.

No climatologist ever said white reflects heat, not even the deniers. Only LimpBoy and his ditto-dopers are stupid enough not to know white reflects the rays of the sun, ONLY the rays that are NOT reflected are converted to heat.

Rush isnt the one making the claim!

Now what I did with the boiling on white snow was illustrate LimpBoy's absurdity by being absurd, LimpBoy's tactic turned against him. But since you are too stupid to know white does not reflect heat, it went completely over your head. ROFLMAO

I cant believe someone this stupid actually exists. Im going to make this as clear as possible.

Color, does not determine the tempature of an object. Your statements do not illustrate absurdity of anyone, they illustrate your own stupidity.

This is why Cho is a moron. Because color doesnt determine heat. Rush Limbaugh has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Ill try to make it even easier by using small words.

Color... Heat.... Not related.

Do you understand this yet?

Do you want to make a bet???????

This is what I love about the complete STUPIDITY of CON$ervastives!!! Even after I pointed out it was Ben Franklin who PROVED the relationship between color and heat, CON$ are too STUPID and LAZY to at least google it and get info for themselves. LOL
Then they act like they are right and the educated people who actually know the relationship between light, heat and color are idiots.
CON$ are tooooooooo STUPID to know when they are making a fool of themselves.
ROFLMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO

What Cho, Franklin, myself and most people with the intelligence of a competent 9 year old know is, the SUN'S RAYS that are REFLECTED are NOT converted to heat. This fact was taught in many grammar schools after a snowfall by repeating Franklin's 1736 experiment. Colored squares are placed on top of the snow in full sunshine and after a time the depth the squares sink into the snow is measured.

PhysicsCentral: Physics in the Snow: Snowy Colors

Physics in the Snow: Snowy Colors

Most people associate Ben Franklin with electricity, but his first recorded experiment was on something totally different – color and heat. You’ve probably noticed that you heat up faster in the sunlight if you’re wearing a dark shirt.

Sunlight looks white or yellow, but it is actually made up of all of the colors of the rainbow. Raindrops and prisms can split sunlight into these colors.

The colors of most objects are determined by the colors of visible light* the objects absorb and reflect. For example, an apple looks red because red light bounces off of the apple, but the apple absorbs every other color.
Black objects don't reflect any light. They absorb all of the light that falls on them. By contrast, white objects reflect all colors of light and don't absorb any. Green objects fall somewhere in the middle. Dark red objects absorb more light than light red objects. In general the darker the color, the more light is absorbed and the less is reflected.

What does this have to do with heat? Heat and light are both forms of energy. Most of the light that objects absorb turns into heat. Since black objects absorb the most light, they also give off the most heat.

 

[Red Dawn]

I’m not sure why science hating conservatives, who voted for Bush twice, thought the Iraq war was a great idea, and thought deregulating wall street made great economic sense, have any credibility to tell us anything.

These armchair wanna be scientists don’t have engineering degrees and probably couldn’t calculate a quadratic function if their lives depended on it. And yet, after they read something on the Limbaugh website for five minutes, they come on here like emotional school girls to inform us this shit is idiotic.

On the other hand, three of the nations top Scientists, at the most prestigious science lab in the nation – Lawrence Livermore – say that increasing albedo would have a demonstrable effect on energy efficiency and carbon footprint. Its not a magic bullet, there is no one magic bullet. But why not try out everything the experts say would work?

In short, who would you rather believe? Actual top rate scientists from Lawrence Livermore Lab?

Or anonymous rightwing message board posters, who voted for Bush twice, and get their science information from Glenn Beck?

Increasing world-wide urban albedos to offset CO2

Hashem Akbari , Surabi Menon1 and Arthur Rosenfeld

(1) Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, Berkeley, CA, USA
(2) California Energy Commission, Sacramento, CA, USA

Abstract Increasing urban albedo can reduce summertime temperatures, resulting in better air quality and savings from reduced air-conditioning costs. In addition, increasing urban albedo can result in less absorption of incoming solar radiation by the surface-troposphere system, countering to some extent the global scale effects of increasing greenhouse gas concentrations. Pavements and roofs typically constitute over 60% of urban surfaces (roof 20–25%, pavements about 40%). Using reflective materials, both roof and pavement albedos can be increased by about 0.25 and 0.15, respectively, resulting in a net albedo increase for urban areas of about 0.1. On a global basis, we estimate that increasing the world-wide albedos of urban roofs and paved surfaces will induce a negative radiative forcing on the earth equivalent to offsetting about 44 Gt of CO2 emissions. At ∼$25/tonne of CO2, a 44 Gt CO2 emission offset from changing the albedo of roofs and paved surfaces is worth about $1,100 billion. Furthermore, many studies have demonstrated reductions of more than 20% in cooling costs for buildings whose rooftop albedo has been increased from 10–20% to about 60% (in the US, potential savings exceed $1 billion per year). Our estimated CO2 offsets from albedo modifications are dependent on assumptions used in this study, but nevertheless demonstrate remarkable global cooling potentials that may be obtained from cooler roofs and pavements.