San Diego mayor changes his mind on same-sex marriage

[Shogun]

Except that liberals want to un-do the classic structure of our society and replace it with what THEY think society should look like.

the classic structure, eh?

you mean like BEFORE or AFTER our colonial period?


what year, exactly, does this "classic structure" reflect?

Perhaps you can help out Ole SEagle and provide evidence beyond stale opinoin?

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Except that liberals want to un-do the classic structure of our society and replace it with what THEY think society should look like.

Absolutely. One of the goals of the communist left is to destroy the nuclear family.

They want the STATE to become the mother and father of our children. For the STATE to become the be-all and end-all. If that is not a radical change for the worse in America, I don't know what would be. That is why leftists are promoting the gay agenda...it tears up our established society and weakens it so that they can mold it toward their ends.

 

[M14 Shooter]

They want the STATE to become the mother and father of our children. For the STATE to become the be-all and end-all.

Absolutely. And who do they want to run the state? Of course, THEY do.
Liberals/Democrats want political power -- as much as they can get, however they can get it -- and are concerned about nothing else.

If that is not a radical change for the worse in America, I don't know what would be.

Oh I don't know -- it worked so well in the USSR and the Warsaw Pact nations...

 

[Shogun]

Is this where you both recede into lala land and ignore my tiny request that you show me evidence to support your opinion?


I know.. history is a real boogeyman when it conflicts with what you really, really want to be true.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Is this where you both recede into lala land and ignore my tiny request that you show me evidence to support your opinion?


I know.. history is a real boogeyman when it conflicts with what you really, really want to be true.

Take a look for yourself at the marriage rates in Norway.
http://www.ssb.no/en/yearbook/tab/tab-095.html

Notice the big drops in marriage rates about the same time when civil unions started in Norway in 1993.

first time marriage age 20-24 from 29%(1986-1990) to 17%(1991-1995)

first time marriage age 25-29 from 72%(1986-1990) to 54%(1991-1995)

 

[Shogun]

marraige rates in norway are indicative of a society that's going to implode, eh?

are you projecting much?


ill remind you that plenty of societies function while having a wide range of cultural traditions regarding marriage. I've yet to see a single culture crumble because their marriage traditions don't match a nuclear family. Perhaps you can show me where which one Im forgetting?

 

[ScreamingEagle]

marraige rates in norway are indicative of a society that's going to implode, eh?

are you projecting much?


ill remind you that plenty of societies function while having a wide range of cultural traditions regarding marriage. I've yet to see a single culture crumble because their marriage traditions don't match a nuclear family. Perhaps you can show me where which one Im forgetting?

Did I say implode? No. Quit trying to frame this as some sort of dramatic "implosion" or blowing-up of a society….although I suppose I could refer to the decline of marriage in Norway as a sort of "implosion" of marriage…lol

I'm saying that adopting gay marriage would CHANGE society and not necessarily for the better. Who the hell cares that there is a "wide range of cultural traditions" regarding marriage? Doesn't mean we have to adopt them. Why should we in America abandon OUR cultural traditions and standards for marriage and family which have historically worked very well for us? Why open ourselves to the many problems associated with this change? And all for just only 2% of the population? Ridiculous.

 

[Larkinn]

Absolutely. One of the goals of the communist left is to destroy the nuclear family.

They want the STATE to become the mother and father of our children. For the STATE to become the be-all and end-all. If that is not a radical change for the worse in America, I don't know what would be. That is why leftists are promoting the gay agenda...it tears up our established society and weakens it so that they can mold it toward their ends.

Umm, no. You are a moron if you truly believe this.

 

[Larkinn]

Absolutely. And who do they want to run the state? Of course, THEY do.
Liberals/Democrats want political power -- as much as they can get, however they can get it -- and are concerned about nothing else.

Right...the tens of millions of liberals just want political power. Paranoid much?

 

[Larkinn]

Take a look for yourself at the marriage rates in Norway.
http://www.ssb.no/en/yearbook/tab/tab-095.html

Notice the big drops in marriage rates about the same time when civil unions started in Norway in 1993.

first time marriage age 20-24 from 29%(1986-1990) to 17%(1991-1995)

first time marriage age 25-29 from 72%(1986-1990) to 54%(1991-1995)

And we all know that Norway is on the verge of imminent collapse. The revolutions there are really hitting the news lately.

 

[Shogun]

Did I say implode? No. Quit trying to frame this as some sort of dramatic "implosion" or blowing-up of a society….although I suppose I could refer to the decline of marriage in Norway as a sort of "implosion" of marriage…lol

I'm saying that adopting gay marriage would CHANGE society and not necessarily for the better. Who the hell cares that there is a "wide range of cultural traditions" regarding marriage? Doesn't mean we have to adopt them. Why should we in America abandon OUR cultural traditions and standards for marriage and family which have historically worked very well for us? Why open ourselves to the many problems associated with this change? And all for just only 2% of the population? Ridiculous.

Ill totally agree that society may CHANGE much like society CHANGED when we let women and blacks vote. There were people that thought such allowances would devestate American society then too. Im not comparing you with those people because im sure we can both agree that, looking at it from this side, letting blacks and women vote was the RIGHT thing to do. This is why I keep bringing up colonial America. What you see as the norm NOW certainly was not the norm THEN. Our society has changed because it will ALWAYS change. cultures are simply not static.

It seems to me that "not necessarily for the better" is an opinion. An opinon that is easily cancelled out by a gay American who would say quite the opposite. Sure, we are now waiting for the demographics to decide how to vote on this issue. Hell, it took 100 years for the emancipation proc to REALLY kick in. I am asking for specific examples of a society gone bad due to homosexuality because the tradition of marraige in ANY culture is not what glues that society together. It's just not. Humans didn't start to gather into civilization because of marriage practices. They gathered because of commerce and our culture will survive if we allow gays to get hitched. Now, of course, as a society we will change but that's going to happen regardelss of how much some of us fight against it. Again, culture is NEVER static. Even the Amish make modern allowances sometimes.


Why should we abandon them? For the same reason we had to abandon slavery which, ill remind you, was working out pretty damn well for America at the time too. for the same reason we let women vote even if it worked out pretty damn well for white landowning men if they didn't. for the same reason we let blacks into colleges in the south even though segregation was working pretty damn good for some. I garentee that you and your wife did not follow the same traditions as colonial Americans in your courtship down to your marriage. That, alone, should say something about the nature of an ever evolving culture where the idea of "traditionsl marriage" is relative to your own timeframe. AND, let me just say at this point... the hisotry of our marriage has not altogether been simply "what works best" for us. MANY women who enjoy their autonomy today will not have to remain in an abusive man dominated relationship for the sake of "tradition". The whole nature of the family unit is a foreign beast now to what it once was. Do you apprentice one son out to another in order to learn a trade as ole Ben Franklin lived? Times change. Culture changes. A lot of the time for the best.

These are reasons why I am proud of America. These are reasons why we may drag our feet letting gays get married but, eventually, they will get to much like EVENTUALLY the emancipation proc grew some teeth.

I guess, Im just looking for facts to support the claim that letting gays get married will be so detrimental to our society that it will stop functioning. Change will happen but wont keep us from trucking on down the ever evolving cultural superhighway. We can all have our opinons about the issue of the day; be it gay mrriage, women voting, or black liberty. Opinions also change.

If traditional marriage works for you then fucking A. I wish you the best of happiness in your traditional nuclear marriage. I guess it is just my opinion that liberty is what makes America great. Unfounded opinoins be damned when IM making a decision that huge and I can extend the same personal privacy to others. Do you think exposing a kid to the concept of gay marriage will rock their world? Try getting used to breaking the news of a stillbirth, a farming accident, a bansaw to the chest like poor Johnny Cash's brother. Allowing others to enjoy the same liberty you enjoy, especially when there is no evidence provided so far to suggest otherwise, is the AMERICAN way. No one wants to rob you of the traditions YOU want to observe. Hell, no one wants to drag heteros, kicking and screaming, into a church to get married to a guy. No one is even trying to FORCE the religioous community into performing a service they hold morally wrong. Let the church's refuse to acknowledge what they want. Shit, what does the GOVERNMENT care when soem catholic breaks a rule and gets excommunicated? It doesn't. the same consideration should be held by the government to fairly observe marraige between gays and non-gays as equal in whatever role the GOVERNMENT plays.


Any of that make sense?

 

[mattskramer]

Yes, the same stupid emotional epiphany that all liberals indulge in while reason goes flying out the window. If one were to stop and think that marriage is really about children and the structure of society, they would oppose gay "marriage" which is nothing more than an emotional aberration.

It is hard to believe that you still belive this way. Okay. I suppose that elderly people who can’t have children should not be allowed to get married. Couples who choose to not have children should not be allowed to get married.

 

[mattskramer]

Civil Unions are what I will accept. Marriage has a meaning and gay couples do not meet the criteria of that meaning.

I could even support a plan put forth by some on the left of this board. Take the Government out of the marriage business, have the Government JUST approve civil unions and let religions preform marriages with no binding legal status outside the religion.

 

[mattskramer]

What a witty answer. You miss the point entirely. Marriage should be reserved simply for two people of the opposite gender because that is what forms the structure of our society. If you can prove that gay marriage would not damage that structure, then you might have a case but so far all evidence points to the opposite. I don't see any point in disrupting an institution that has been proven a basis for a healthy society throughout history and across cultures in order to pander to only about 2% of our population. Ridiculous.

Gee. We were getting along fine when women were not allowed to vote. Slavery was pretty nice for the white man too. We should go back to the days when interracial marriage was not allowed. Those few who wanted to get married outside their race – too bad. Yes. Let’s go back to the good old days. There was really no need for change.

 

[mattskramer]

Gay marriage is allowed in Belgium, the Netherlands, South Africa, and Spain. I do not see those nations crumbling – at least not because two men want to be recognized as married.

 

[Gawdfadda1]

Marriage was originally based on the family structure. That whole thing about carrying on the family name and whatnot. From my perspective, what I see now is a bunch of hoopla over something quite simple. Men and women get married; that's how it works. As for sex, tab "C" goes into slot "P", not slot "A". Gays do not have any reason to marry as they cannot create life between themselves. That being said, if gays wish for a civil union, so be it. I could care less. Where I draw the line is when I and my family are subjected to gay rights parades and the absolutely ignorant and quite honestly, hideous outfits they expose themselves in while parading around. Being gay is about sexuality, it appears to me. It is not about morals, ethics, loyalty, or any of the other pieces which marriage is about. Queers just wanna have sex. And they flaunt this everyday. I am sick and tired of seeing rainbow stickers on cars. I am tired of hearing the same lame agenda from all of the equal rights advocates. I will not stand by and accept document changes such as birth certificates and marriage licenses. What the gay community is asking is beyond ignorant. Acceptance of gays as long as they continue to act in the manner they have chosen, will not happen.

 

[Gawdfadda1]

I saw on this thread where someone stated that the gay lifestyle has not, can not, and will not affect society. Helloooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!! Anyone ever hear of AIDS? If that hasn't affected society, then I don't what does.

 

[Shogun]

gays caused aids, eh?


funny, I was taught that aids is a virus that can affect anyone regardless of sexuality. But, perhaps you can show me an unbiased source that suggests that gays are why we have Aids...


....and marraige is not just a matter of procreation. We've covered this already.

 

[doniston]

Marriage was originally based on the family structure. That whole thing about carrying on the family name and whatnot. From my perspective, what I see now is a bunch of hoopla over something quite simple. Men and women get married; that's how it works. As for sex, tab "C" goes into slot "P", not slot "A". Gays do not have any reason to marry as they cannot create life between themselves. That being said, if gays wish for a civil union, so be it. I could care less. Where I draw the line is when I and my family are subjected to gay rights parades and the absolutely ignorant and quite honestly, hideous outfits they expose themselves in while parading around. Being gay is about sexuality, it appears to me. It is not about morals, ethics, loyalty, or any of the other pieces which marriage is about. Queers just wanna have sex. And they flaunt this everyday. I am sick and tired of seeing rainbow stickers on cars. I am tired of hearing the same lame agenda from all of the equal rights advocates. I will not stand by and accept document changes such as birth certificates and marriage licenses. What the gay community is asking is beyond ignorant. Acceptance of gays as long as they continue to act in the manner they have chosen, will not happen.

AH yes, another Holier than thou Asshole. I don't like Gay rights parades either, think they hurt their own cause. but you don't have to watch.

 

[jillian]

Marriage was originally based on the family structure. That whole thing about carrying on the family name and whatnot. From my perspective, what I see now is a bunch of hoopla over something quite simple. Men and women get married; that's how it works. As for sex, tab "C" goes into slot "P", not slot "A". Gays do not have any reason to marry as they cannot create life between themselves. That being said, if gays wish for a civil union, so be it. I could care less. Where I draw the line is when I and my family are subjected to gay rights parades and the absolutely ignorant and quite honestly, hideous outfits they expose themselves in while parading around. Being gay is about sexuality, it appears to me. It is not about morals, ethics, loyalty, or any of the other pieces which marriage is about. Queers just wanna have sex. And they flaunt this everyday. I am sick and tired of seeing rainbow stickers on cars. I am tired of hearing the same lame agenda from all of the equal rights advocates. I will not stand by and accept document changes such as birth certificates and marriage licenses. What the gay community is asking is beyond ignorant. Acceptance of gays as long as they continue to act in the manner they have chosen, will not happen.

What an absurd commentary. My experience with gays is that they want what everyone else wants. And they aren't homogeneous any more than heterosexuals are homogeneous. Some certainly just want sex. But so do some heterosexuals.

The rest of what you write just sounds like someone who never met a gay person in his life.

As for the parades... don't go. I wouldn't take my son either. But not because they're gay... because they're risque.

In terms of marriage originally being based on the "family structure'. This is partially true. But what was the purpose of the family unit? To grow and hunt food. There were multiple wives because babies died... and women died in childbirth. But it wasn't a "religious" thing. It was a survival issue. Certainly, we don't need to grow and hunt our own food any more. A "family unit" is an economic unit. Marriage being a function of "love" is a fairly recent historical development. And, given that gays have the highest per capita income of any individual group, whether the union is between two men or two women or whether it is a union between a man and a woman really doesn't matter much in terms of its success or failure.

And if you want to go back to scripture, there were many examples of polygamy... which we would not find acceptable now. So the "roots" don't really matter either.

And, please don't give me the "but gays can't have children" thing. Many heterosexual couples choose not or are unable to have children. They are no less a family unit.

Mostly, I'm not quite sure why you care who two consenting adults find happiness. It has no bearing on your life.