Ruling puts prayers under renewed scrutiny

[DKSuddeth]

Since the topic was of a religious nature, I thought it would be obvious my point. What does Rush Limbaugh have to do with the religious nature of this discussino? I was saying that in "religious" cases, unless there is an anti-Christian tilt to the case, the ACLU typically will not take the case.

gotcha, thanks for clarifying.

 

[acludem]

That's patently false - a little research will prove you wrong. I will post a list of cases later tonight where the ACLU defended the rights of Christians.

acludem

 

[freeandfun1]

That's patently false - a little research will prove you wrong. I will post a list of cases later tonight where the ACLU defended the rights of Christians.

acludem

I want to see cases where you have gone after Muslims or Jews or any other religious group. Not who you have defended.

 

[Bonnie]

Since the topic was of a religious nature, I thought it would be obvious my point. What does Rush Limbaugh have to do with the religious nature of this discussino? I was saying that in "religious" cases, unless there is an anti-Christian tilt to the case, the ACLU typically will not take the case.

There have been a few and I mean a very few supportive christain cases that the ACLU have taken, for the most part they have made it their mission to do away with all traces of public christianity based on this fabricated seperation of church and state that never existed in the first place, it was an interpretation by a few judges that put "that "spin on what the founders originally intended, and so the pandoras box was opened.........The American Center For Law and Justice does very great work in countering the ACLU wherever need be.

Bottom line is; when you secularize a country you create an atmosphere by which people's intellect gets darkened, and the line between good and bad gets blurred just a little more, thus creating a submissive, confused, and apathetic society just ripe to be steamroled over.......A lot of communists nations have done it very effectively.

 

[acludem]

The ACLU doesn't "go after" people. The ACLU is contacted by groups or individuals seeking assistance in defending their civil liberties. The ACLU has defended Christians on many occassions, the problem is the primary religious group attempting to subvert the Constitutionally guaranteed freedom of religion in this country are fundamentalist Christians. Here are two recent cases in which the ACLU defended Christians:

ACLU defends a Christian student's right to quote the bible in his yearbook passage:
http://www.aclu.org/StudentsRights/StudentsRights.cfm?ID=15680&c=159
ACLU defends the right of Christians to use a public park for baptisms:
http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=15897&c=141

If you continue back in ACLU's history, you will find many cases where we defended the rights of Christians.

acludem

 

[musicman]

acludem:

"...the primary religious group attempting to subvert the Constitutionally guaranteed freedom of religion in this country are fundamentalist Christians."


That's an exraordinary statement. It explains a lot about you, and the selectively hateful mindset of the ACLU. It is, of course, a complete falsehood. Please don't misunderstand me - I'm not implying that you're dishonest. I believe that YOU believe what you just said. I'd just like to know why. I'd like for you to cite one example, or offer one shred of proof. This is important, because, your protestations notwithstanding, the principal mission of the ACLU is the removal of every vestige of Christianity - and only Christianity - from public view, public thought, and public discourse. This offensive religion will be blasted off the scene, if it takes every liberal lawer in America - and common sense be damned, common courtesy be damned, the will of the people be damned, and the U.S. Constitution be damned.

 

[acludem]

Actually if you go the ACLU's website, you will find that the organization is involved in many different issues, not just issues of religious liberty.

I stand by my statement. You don't see Muslims or Jews trying to put their versions of the Ten Commandments in every school and courthouse. When was the last time a Buddhist Monk spoke out in favor of forcing school children to pray in public schools? Fundamentalist Christians are the single greatest internal threat to freedom of religion in the United States today. That's not to say all Christians are fundamentalist or even that all fundamentalist Christians try to subvert the Constitution.

acludem

 

[musicman]

acludem:

"Actually, if you go to the ACLU's website, you will find that the organization is involved in many different issues, not just issues of religious liberty."

If Charles Manson had a website, we'd learn that he is a singer-songwriter and has a great reverence for the lives of helpless animals, too. However, as a wise man once wrote, "By their DEEDS shall you know them". And, in every lawyer-driven assault upon individual freedom in it's most practical sense - the right of the individuals who make up a community to determine what's best for them - you'll find the ACLU. In every matter that the founding fathers judged to be the business of the people, you'll find these liberal, America-hating barristers trying to drag an all-too-willing, power-mad federal government into the fray. All the smoke and mirrors in the world cannot conceal the ACLU's true agenda from anyone with eyes to see. They are trying to twist the Constitution in upon itself in order to destroy it.

"You don't see Muslims or Jews trying to put up their versions of the Ten Commandments in every school and courthouse."

And what, pray tell, is the Jews' version of the Ten Commandments? As for Muslims, I vaguely remember them splattering their commandments all over New York City. A lot of people had their civil liberties violated THAT day,I'll tell you. But, I digress. You don't see Christians doing that either, and you know it. There have been communities which have decided, as is their RIGHT, to erect statues or monuments which have (horror of horrors) a religious theme. So what? It's their community. Hateful little pricks who wanted to make an ostentatious display of their contempt for their hometowns used to throw rocks, or spray-paint graffiti. Now, they can go to the ACLU, and render the wishes of their entire community irrelevant. The federal government was never designed to engage in this kind of interference, and the ACLU knows it.

"When was the last time a Buddhist Monk spoke out in favor of forcing school children to pray in public schools?"

When was the last time you saw a Christian trying to force ANYBODY to do ANYTHING? For someone who attacks Christianity so passionately, you have completely failed to understand it. Man's free will is it's bedrock principle - quite unlike the ACLU. It is the secularists who are doing the forcing. Teachers are forbidden to allow voluntary prayer in school. Another way of saying, "forbidden to allow" is "forced to forbid".

"Fundamental Christians are the single greatest internal threat to freedom of religion in the United States today."

That's a grand, sweeping statement - worthy of the socialist, Christian-hating organization whose name you wear so proudly. I defy you to prove it.

 

[Bonnie]

acludem:

"...the primary religious group attempting to subvert the Constitutionally guaranteed freedom of religion in this country are fundamentalist Christians."


That's an exraordinary statement. It explains a lot about you, and the selectively hateful mindset of the ACLU. It is, of course, a complete falsehood. Please don't misunderstand me - I'm not implying that you're dishonest. I believe that YOU believe what you just said. I'd just like to know why. I'd like for you to cite one example, or offer one shred of proof. This is important, because, your protestations notwithstanding, the principal mission of the ACLU is the removal of every vestige of Christianity - and only Christianity - from public view, public thought, and public discourse. This offensive religion will be blasted off the scene, if it takes every liberal lawer in America - and common sense be damned, common courtesy be damned, the will of the people be damned, and the U.S. Constitution be damned.

Bravo musicman, well put!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bonnie]

Doesn't it just boggle the mind how an organization claims to be for free speech, and at the same time constantly decides what is worthy of free speech and what isn't. Now all the sudden the ACLU is the guardian of good taste?? What elitist crap

 

[5stringJeff]

Fundamentalist Christians are the single greatest internal threat to freedom of religion in the United States today. That's not to say all Christians are fundamentalist or even that all fundamentalist Christians try to subvert the Constitution.

Of course, Fundamentalist Christians would say that the ACLU is the single greatest internal threat to freedom of religion in teh US today.

And I would llike to know how fundamentalist Christians try to "subvert" the Constitution. Is it by insisting that religion is not something that should stay behind closed doors?

 

[musicman]

Doesn't it just boggle the mind how an organization claims to be for free speech, and at the same time constantly decides what is worthy of free speech and what isn't. Now all the sudden the ACLU is the guardian of good taste?? What elitist crap

Right back at ya, Bonnie - beautifully put! The name of the game is "selective free speech". Some are freer than others.

 

[acludem]

The ACLU has defended speech of all kinds against censorship. From the KKK, to the NAACP, to Rush Limbaugh the ACLU is steadfast in support of freedom of speech, so long as the primary objective isn't to threaten or itimidate an individual or group of individuals. For example, a fundamentalist Christian could ask the ACLU for help, and would likely receive it, if the government attempted to censor their speech supporting making Protestant Christianity the official state religion of the United States. However, should this same fundamentalist then seek to threaten and/or intimidate people of other religions then the ACLU would not defend them. It's not a difficult thought process.

Also, I want to point out again, the ACLU is NOT an economic organization, so it cannot, therefore, be called socialist. Socialism is an economic theory.

acludem

acludem

 

[musicman]

Socialism is the political blueprint for godless secular humanism, beginning with the foolish, arrogant belief that human nature is somehow perfectible. Communism, and all the other tyrannical isms that must spring from socialism, are the practical, economic implementations of the oldest lie ever told: "We can be as Gods". Sorry - the ACLU gets no pass on this one. Socialism is an ideology; the ACLU - it's rapt pupil and fearless foot soldier.

"By their DEEDS shall you know them".

 

[acludem]

You are so totally and completely wrong. Socialism is an ECONOMIC theory, just like capitalism. Both Socialism and Communism are offspring of the Marxist political/economic theory espoused in the Communist manifesto. Read any book on economics you want, including books written by William F. Buckley and other conservatives and I will be proven correct.

acludem

 

[Hobbit]

You are so totally and completely wrong. Socialism is an ECONOMIC theory, just like capitalism. Both Socialism and Communism are offspring of the Marxist political/economic theory espoused in the Communist manifesto. Read any book on economics you want, including books written by William F. Buckley and other conservatives and I will be proven correct.

acludem

Yes, but many of the things the ACLU fights for lay the groundwork for socialism, especially since they join with the left in attempts at income redistribution, which is a fancy word for socialism. Also, the ACLU refused to support Christians' cries for freedom of religion when an elementary class on Islam went extremely interactive, from wearing the shoufa to playing jihad. If they'd had a Christianity class with people wearing monk robes and playing inquisition, I guarantee the ACLU would've pounced on them before you coud even say "1st ammendment." Even if the ACLU offered its help to Christians (which it does on rare occasions), they refuse to accept it, as it would be construed as supporting and accepting the ACLU, which supports many causes directly contradictory to Christian doctrine.

The thing that gets me the most is that the ACLU is portrayed as good because they defend (mainly their interpretation of) the 1st ammendement while the NRA is portrayed as bad because they defend the 2nd ammendment.

 

[Bonnie]

Yes, but many of the things the ACLU fights for lay the groundwork for socialism, especially since they join with the left in attempts at income redistribution, which is a fancy word for socialism. Also, the ACLU refused to support Christians' cries for freedom of religion when an elementary class on Islam went extremely interactive, from wearing the shoufa to playing jihad. If they'd had a Christianity class with people wearing monk robes and playing inquisition, I guarantee the ACLU would've pounced on them before you coud even say "1st ammendment." Even if the ACLU offered its help to Christians (which it does on rare occasions), they refuse to accept it, as it would be construed as supporting and accepting the ACLU, which supports many causes directly contradictory to Christian doctrine.

The thing that gets me the most is that the ACLU is portrayed as good because they defend (mainly their interpretation of) the 1st ammendement while the NRA is portrayed as bad because they defend the 2nd ammendment.

Thats because morality has been redifined to secular humainism.........Translation Christians bad, they force their evil ways on everyone, they want nativity scenes in public....AHHHH the horror. And the great secular humanists never judge anything as being wrong except what christians do, they are the champions of the downtrodden, and castigated ones among us, and they are so brave for being that way HOOOORAY!!!

 

[musicman]

You are so totally and completely wrong. Socialism is an ECONOMIC theory, just like capitalism. Both Socialism and Communism are offspring of the Marxist political/economic theory espoused in the Communist manifesto. Read any book on economics you want, including books written by William F. Buckley and other conservatives and I will be proven correct.

acludem

Wrong.

According to The Merriam Webster Dictionary:

Capitalism - an ECONOMIC system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods...

Socialism - any of various SOCIAL systems based on shared or government ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.

Answer me truthfully, if you dare:

Which side are you on?

 

[musicman]

acludem:

"...a fundamentalist Christian could ask the ACLU for help, and would likely receive it, if the government attempted to censor their speech supporting making Protestant Christianity the official state religion...".


You need to get the idea of a Christian theocracy out of your head. I know it fits in nicely with your fearmongering tactics, but it's a socialist-manufactured boogey man. Since man's free will is it's bedrock principle, Christianity could never become a theocracy (it would be self-defeating), and a theocracy would cease to be Christian. You're trying to put a square peg into a round hole.