Roosevelt's Greatest Blunder

[PoliticalChic]

How could Germany surrender if Hitler didn't surrender? Is there evidence somewhere to indicate there was a force in Germany that could rebel against Hitler and his doctrine of no surrender under any conditions and go against him without being lined up in front of a wall and shot or strung up with piano wire?

The magical "anti-Nazis" of Frau Brauns fantasies did not even have enough power in May 1945 to arrange terms of surrender. This with the Nazi army crumbling and manned by little boys and old men

THe anti-Nazis of 1945 knew that there was no chance of any "terms of surrender". Allied policy had been very clear for a long time.

5 years might be the very best case scenario.

2 years? A border in the COld War that does not run right down the middle of Germany? Perhaps a setup that defuses that Cold War?

One does have to judge historical figures based on what they knew at the time.

But FDR signed an agreement with Stalin, where Stalin promised to have free elections in Soviet occupied Europe.

Did FDR believe that?

Did he have any plans to follow up on that?

Did he just write off Eastern Europe?

Did he give any consideration for the Balance of Power in the Post War world?

"Did he just write off Eastern Europe?"

1. By agreeing to Stalin's demands that the 'second front' be via Western Europe, rather than the Italy-Adriatic, Franklin Roosevelt was agreeing to turn Central and Eastern Europe over to occupation by the Red Army....and its 'tender mercies.'

Harry Hopkins and George Marshall were fully behind handing all of Eastern Europe over to Stalin's tender mercies.


Remember...they knew of the Terror Famine, the Katyn Forest Massacre, and other blood purges. by Stalin.


Evidence can be seen in a document which Hopkins took with him to the Quebec conference in August, 1943, entitled "Russia's Position," quoted as follows in Robert Sherwood's book, "Roosevelt and Hopkins: An Intimate History,":
"Russia's post-war position in Europe will be a dominant one. With Germany crushed, there is no power in Europe to oppose her tremendous military forces."



2. Along came President Roosevelt, with the typical progressive blind eye to human suffering and slaughter. He ignored the 3-5 million starved to death in the Ukraine by the regime of the USSR, and rushed to embrace it, offering recognition in November of 1933.




The saddest of all is the moron, Camp, claiming that Roosevelt had 'a moral compass.'

 

[haissem123]

1. In his tireless and unending efforts to placate, favor, win the approval of homicidal maniac Joseph Stalin, Franklin Roosevelt offered up the lives of 150,000 American soldiers in said endeavor.



Lend lease was a mistake in that it prioritized materials for Russia that were sorely needed by American troops.

Allowing Stalin to determine the location of a 'second front' over the objections of American generals, and of Winston Churchill, was a mistake.

But the worst blunderwas bowing to Stalin's demands that Germany be pulverized, reduced to ashes, rather than be allowed to surrender.....the doctrine of 'unconditional surrender'....was the very worst.



2. Franklin Roosevelt was known to fabricate all sorts of things...that he wrote Haiti's constitution, that his cabinet would be made to swear to a balanced budget, that he came up with the idea of 'Lend Lease,'....none of which are true.
He also put out the idea that 'unconditional surrender' of Germany originated with him.

Robert Sherwood, Harry Hopkins official biographer, quotes Roosevelt as saying "The thought popped into my mind...and the next thing I knew I had said it."
Sherwood, "The White House Papers of Harry L. Hopkins; Vol II," p. 693



Actually, the policy was first mentioned in January of 1943, at the Casablanca Conference.

a. The State Department Casablanca Conference records explains that this controversial surrender policy came from a meeting of a State Department and Council on Foreign Relations panel.

BTW....that was the same panel with "...working alongside him in the Council was Alger Hiss, a newly elected member sympathetic to the left wing of the Democratic Party,..."
The group functioned via this mantra: "Cooperation between the United States and the Soviet Union is as essential as almost anything in the world today, and unless and until it becomes entirely evident that the U.S.S.R. is not interested in achieving cooperation, we must redouble, not abandon, our efforts, when the task proves difficult." http://www.cfr.org/about/history/cfr/first_transformation.html


Since the group briefed Roosevelt prior to January 1943, clearly the idea of 'unconditional surrender did not originate with Roosevelt.
Churchill knew nothing of the plan.


3. Actually, the very first use of the phrase 'unconditional surrender" at Casablanca was by Harry Hopkins. One day earlier, January 23, before the President announced it, Hopkins told the grand vizier of Morocco, "The war will be pursued until Germany, Italy, and Japan agree to unconditional surrender."
"Harry Hopkins: Ally of the Poor and Defender of Democracy," by George McJimsey, p.277
and FRUS: Washington and Casablanca, p. 703.



4. When, on January 24, 1943, Roosevelt read several pages of notes discussing the doctrine to reporters, according to Sherwood, "carefully prepared in advance,"...one might ask who regularly prepared and edited said notes.

a. Harry Hopkins,- FDR's alter ego, co-president, or Rasputin, "...the closest and most influential adviser to President Franklin D. Roosevelt during World War II, was a Soviet agent." and “the most important of all Soviet wartime agents in the United States.”The Treachery Of Harry Hopkins
The Treachery Of Harry Hopkins


b. Life magazine ran a spread on Hopkins on September 22, 1941, calling his a one-man cabinet to Roosevelt. In fact, he lived at the White House, in the Lincoln Bedroom, from May 1940 to December 1943.
LIFE - Google Books, p. 93.

c. Elliott [Roosevelt, FDR's son] attributes this comment to his father: "Of course, it's just the thing for the Russians. They couldn't want anything better. Unconditional surrender! Uncle Joe might have made it up himself."
Manly, "The Twenty Year Revolution," p.122




And so was born Allied doctrine.
And the policy that ensured Soviet domination over half of Europe....at the cost of American lives and treasure....

Any guess as to where the policy actually originated?

After what Germany did to the work it shouldn't have been pulverize as a lesson it and the world to come would never forget? Shut the fuck up you fucking jerk off. They got off light compared to the hundreds of millions killed and put through hell because of their stupid national pride.

 

[Camp]

How could Germany surrender if Hitler didn't surrender? Is there evidence somewhere to indicate there was a force in Germany that could rebel against Hitler and his doctrine of no surrender under any conditions and go against him without being lined up in front of a wall and shot or strung up with piano wire?

"How could Germany surrender if Hitler didn't surrender?"

Answered in detail with links and sources in posts #194 and #195.....you dope.


See if you can challenge any of it.
Double-dog dare ya.'

You are basing your assessments on Canaris and the Abwehr. Many of the the leaders of that military intelligence group were not even Nazi party members and under constant investigation and harassment of the SS. The Abwehr was subservient to the SS. If compared to US military intelligence of today it would be like comparing the DIA to the CIA. It had limited and well defined tasks and duties that were mostly restricted to purely military duties. Canaris failed in his assignment to reach agreement with Franco in 1940, and Germany and Spain had working relationships and diplomatic agreements during the time frame you think he could have negotiated some kind of terms with GB and the USA. You are making your silly case by simply overstating the authority of Canaris and the Abwehr. Your lack of understanding of the German power structure allows you to live in the fantasy world you have created.

 

[Marxist]

How could Germany surrender if Hitler didn't surrender? Is there evidence somewhere to indicate there was a force in Germany that could rebel against Hitler and his doctrine of no surrender under any conditions and go against him without being lined up in front of a wall and shot or strung up with piano wire?

The magical "anti-Nazis" of Frau Brauns fantasies did not even have enough power in May 1945 to arrange terms of surrender. This with the Nazi army crumbling and manned by little boys and old men

THe anti-Nazis of 1945 knew that there was no chance of any "terms of surrender". Allied policy had been very clear for a long time.

5 years might be the very best case scenario.

2 years? A border in the COld War that does not run right down the middle of Germany? Perhaps a setup that defuses that Cold War?

One does have to judge historical figures based on what they knew at the time.

But FDR signed an agreement with Stalin, where Stalin promised to have free elections in Soviet occupied Europe.

Did FDR believe that?

Did he have any plans to follow up on that?

Did he just write off Eastern Europe?

Did he give any consideration for the Balance of Power in the Post War world?

"Did he just write off Eastern Europe?"

1. By agreeing to Stalin's demands that the 'second front' be via Western Europe, rather than the Italy-Adriatic, Franklin Roosevelt was agreeing to turn Central and Eastern Europe over to occupation by the Red Army....and its 'tender mercies.'

Harry Hopkins and George Marshall were fully behind handing all of Eastern Europe over to Stalin's tender mercies.


Remember...they knew of the Terror Famine, the Katyn Forest Massacre, and other blood purges. by Stalin.


Evidence can be seen in a document which Hopkins took with him to the Quebec conference in August, 1943, entitled "Russia's Position," quoted as follows in Robert Sherwood's book, "Roosevelt and Hopkins: An Intimate History,":
"Russia's post-war position in Europe will be a dominant one. With Germany crushed, there is no power in Europe to oppose her tremendous military forces."



2. Along came President Roosevelt, with the typical progressive blind eye to human suffering and slaughter. He ignored the 3-5 million starved to death in the Ukraine by the regime of the USSR, and rushed to embrace it, offering recognition in November of 1933.




The saddest of all is the moron, Camp, claiming that Roosevelt had 'a moral compass.'

Roosevelt obviously had a "moral compass," and if you want to talk about the USSR...

 

[PoliticalChic]

1. In his tireless and unending efforts to placate, favor, win the approval of homicidal maniac Joseph Stalin, Franklin Roosevelt offered up the lives of 150,000 American soldiers in said endeavor.



Lend lease was a mistake in that it prioritized materials for Russia that were sorely needed by American troops.

Allowing Stalin to determine the location of a 'second front' over the objections of American generals, and of Winston Churchill, was a mistake.

But the worst blunderwas bowing to Stalin's demands that Germany be pulverized, reduced to ashes, rather than be allowed to surrender.....the doctrine of 'unconditional surrender'....was the very worst.



2. Franklin Roosevelt was known to fabricate all sorts of things...that he wrote Haiti's constitution, that his cabinet would be made to swear to a balanced budget, that he came up with the idea of 'Lend Lease,'....none of which are true.
He also put out the idea that 'unconditional surrender' of Germany originated with him.

Robert Sherwood, Harry Hopkins official biographer, quotes Roosevelt as saying "The thought popped into my mind...and the next thing I knew I had said it."
Sherwood, "The White House Papers of Harry L. Hopkins; Vol II," p. 693



Actually, the policy was first mentioned in January of 1943, at the Casablanca Conference.

a. The State Department Casablanca Conference records explains that this controversial surrender policy came from a meeting of a State Department and Council on Foreign Relations panel.

BTW....that was the same panel with "...working alongside him in the Council was Alger Hiss, a newly elected member sympathetic to the left wing of the Democratic Party,..."
The group functioned via this mantra: "Cooperation between the United States and the Soviet Union is as essential as almost anything in the world today, and unless and until it becomes entirely evident that the U.S.S.R. is not interested in achieving cooperation, we must redouble, not abandon, our efforts, when the task proves difficult." http://www.cfr.org/about/history/cfr/first_transformation.html


Since the group briefed Roosevelt prior to January 1943, clearly the idea of 'unconditional surrender did not originate with Roosevelt.
Churchill knew nothing of the plan.


3. Actually, the very first use of the phrase 'unconditional surrender" at Casablanca was by Harry Hopkins. One day earlier, January 23, before the President announced it, Hopkins told the grand vizier of Morocco, "The war will be pursued until Germany, Italy, and Japan agree to unconditional surrender."
"Harry Hopkins: Ally of the Poor and Defender of Democracy," by George McJimsey, p.277
and FRUS: Washington and Casablanca, p. 703.



4. When, on January 24, 1943, Roosevelt read several pages of notes discussing the doctrine to reporters, according to Sherwood, "carefully prepared in advance,"...one might ask who regularly prepared and edited said notes.

a. Harry Hopkins,- FDR's alter ego, co-president, or Rasputin, "...the closest and most influential adviser to President Franklin D. Roosevelt during World War II, was a Soviet agent." and “the most important of all Soviet wartime agents in the United States.”The Treachery Of Harry Hopkins
The Treachery Of Harry Hopkins


b. Life magazine ran a spread on Hopkins on September 22, 1941, calling his a one-man cabinet to Roosevelt. In fact, he lived at the White House, in the Lincoln Bedroom, from May 1940 to December 1943.
LIFE - Google Books, p. 93.

c. Elliott [Roosevelt, FDR's son] attributes this comment to his father: "Of course, it's just the thing for the Russians. They couldn't want anything better. Unconditional surrender! Uncle Joe might have made it up himself."
Manly, "The Twenty Year Revolution," p.122




And so was born Allied doctrine.
And the policy that ensured Soviet domination over half of Europe....at the cost of American lives and treasure....

Any guess as to where the policy actually originated?

After what Germany did to the work it shouldn't have been pulverize as a lesson it and the world to come would never forget? Shut the fuck up you fucking jerk off. They got off light compared to the hundreds of millions killed and put through hell because of their stupid national pride.

There was nothing that the Nazis did that they didn't, either learn from Stalin....or that Stalin didn't do worse.

"...to the hundreds of millions killed..."
You're truly a moron, aren't you.

Now watch your language or I'll have to give you the beating you deserve.

 

[Marxist]

1. In his tireless and unending efforts to placate, favor, win the approval of homicidal maniac Joseph Stalin, Franklin Roosevelt offered up the lives of 150,000 American soldiers in said endeavor.



Lend lease was a mistake in that it prioritized materials for Russia that were sorely needed by American troops.

Allowing Stalin to determine the location of a 'second front' over the objections of American generals, and of Winston Churchill, was a mistake.

But the worst blunderwas bowing to Stalin's demands that Germany be pulverized, reduced to ashes, rather than be allowed to surrender.....the doctrine of 'unconditional surrender'....was the very worst.



2. Franklin Roosevelt was known to fabricate all sorts of things...that he wrote Haiti's constitution, that his cabinet would be made to swear to a balanced budget, that he came up with the idea of 'Lend Lease,'....none of which are true.
He also put out the idea that 'unconditional surrender' of Germany originated with him.

Robert Sherwood, Harry Hopkins official biographer, quotes Roosevelt as saying "The thought popped into my mind...and the next thing I knew I had said it."
Sherwood, "The White House Papers of Harry L. Hopkins; Vol II," p. 693



Actually, the policy was first mentioned in January of 1943, at the Casablanca Conference.

a. The State Department Casablanca Conference records explains that this controversial surrender policy came from a meeting of a State Department and Council on Foreign Relations panel.

BTW....that was the same panel with "...working alongside him in the Council was Alger Hiss, a newly elected member sympathetic to the left wing of the Democratic Party,..."
The group functioned via this mantra: "Cooperation between the United States and the Soviet Union is as essential as almost anything in the world today, and unless and until it becomes entirely evident that the U.S.S.R. is not interested in achieving cooperation, we must redouble, not abandon, our efforts, when the task proves difficult." http://www.cfr.org/about/history/cfr/first_transformation.html


Since the group briefed Roosevelt prior to January 1943, clearly the idea of 'unconditional surrender did not originate with Roosevelt.
Churchill knew nothing of the plan.


3. Actually, the very first use of the phrase 'unconditional surrender" at Casablanca was by Harry Hopkins. One day earlier, January 23, before the President announced it, Hopkins told the grand vizier of Morocco, "The war will be pursued until Germany, Italy, and Japan agree to unconditional surrender."
"Harry Hopkins: Ally of the Poor and Defender of Democracy," by George McJimsey, p.277
and FRUS: Washington and Casablanca, p. 703.



4. When, on January 24, 1943, Roosevelt read several pages of notes discussing the doctrine to reporters, according to Sherwood, "carefully prepared in advance,"...one might ask who regularly prepared and edited said notes.

a. Harry Hopkins,- FDR's alter ego, co-president, or Rasputin, "...the closest and most influential adviser to President Franklin D. Roosevelt during World War II, was a Soviet agent." and “the most important of all Soviet wartime agents in the United States.”The Treachery Of Harry Hopkins
The Treachery Of Harry Hopkins


b. Life magazine ran a spread on Hopkins on September 22, 1941, calling his a one-man cabinet to Roosevelt. In fact, he lived at the White House, in the Lincoln Bedroom, from May 1940 to December 1943.
LIFE - Google Books, p. 93.

c. Elliott [Roosevelt, FDR's son] attributes this comment to his father: "Of course, it's just the thing for the Russians. They couldn't want anything better. Unconditional surrender! Uncle Joe might have made it up himself."
Manly, "The Twenty Year Revolution," p.122




And so was born Allied doctrine.
And the policy that ensured Soviet domination over half of Europe....at the cost of American lives and treasure....

Any guess as to where the policy actually originated?

After what Germany did to the work it shouldn't have been pulverize as a lesson it and the world to come would never forget? Shut the fuck up you fucking jerk off. They got off light compared to the hundreds of millions killed and put through hell because of their stupid national pride.

There was nothing that the Nazis did that they didn't, either learn from Stalin....or that Stalin didn't do worse.

"...to the hundreds of millions killed..."
You're truly a moron, aren't you.

Now watch your language or I'll have to give you the beating you deserve.

Jesus christ.

 

[rightwinger]

Frau Brauns "military and diplomatic strategy"

I'm not making this up

2. "Ending the war in May 1940 (before we were even in it) would have left Hitler in control of most of Western Europe and Hitler marching into the USSR."
a. No it wouldn't...it would have ended Hitler's reign...and turned over Germany to anti-Nazis who would have surrendered to the Allies.

May 1940, Hitler controls France, Netherlands, Belgium, Norway....Operation Barbarossa is just beginning

Frau Braun seems to think FDR could have magically turned Germany over to the anti-Nazis who would quickly surrender

You can't make this shit up

But you make up stuff all the time.

I've asked you to support several of your statements in just the last few posts....and you haven't been able to...

You simply lie,


"[The real American] seems to think FDR could have magically turned Germany over to the anti-Nazis who would quickly surrender."

Exactly what would have happened.


I can back up everything I post.


Roosevelt's fear of "offending" Stalin resulted inhis administration ordering that the German anti-Nazi resistance be totally disregarded.



1. One of the highest anti-Nazi Germans was thechief of Nazi Germany's intelligence division, the Abwehr, Admiral Wm. Canaris. Try as he might, the Allies would not open communications channels with Canaris .

Britain's intelligence chief said this about Canaris:'It is said that had it not been for the Foreign Office's fear of offending Russia that he might have established direct contact with the admiral [Canaris] in 1942 on the removal of Hitler as a means of shortening the war."
“Gen. Menzies, Ex-British Intelligence Chief, Dies,” New York Times, May 31, 1968.


Did you see the date: 1942.When did the war with Germany finally end?

"May 7, 1945: Germany surrenders unconditionally to the Allies at Reims"Germany surrenders unconditionally to the Allies at Reims ? History.com This Day in History ? 5/7/1945

What prevented an earlier conclusion to the war?
"... fear of offending Russia..."

Fear of offending, it seems to me, suggests a relationship with one's superiors....
i.e., Roosevelt considered Stalin his superior.



Again?

"...on the removal of Hitler as a means of shortening the war."

Get it, you lying sack of sewage???

Canaris would have been quickly executed, just like everyone else who tried to broker a peace.
Hitler was funny that way

 

[PoliticalChic]

How could Germany surrender if Hitler didn't surrender? Is there evidence somewhere to indicate there was a force in Germany that could rebel against Hitler and his doctrine of no surrender under any conditions and go against him without being lined up in front of a wall and shot or strung up with piano wire?

"How could Germany surrender if Hitler didn't surrender?"

Answered in detail with links and sources in posts #194 and #195.....you dope.


See if you can challenge any of it.
Double-dog dare ya.'

You are basing your assessments on Canaris and the Abwehr. Many of the the leaders of that military intelligence group were not even Nazi party members and under constant investigation and harassment of the SS. The Abwehr was subservient to the SS. If compared to US military intelligence of today it would be like comparing the DIA to the CIA. It had limited and well defined tasks and duties that were mostly restricted to purely military duties. Canaris failed in his assignment to reach agreement with Franco in 1940, and Germany and Spain had working relationships and diplomatic agreements during the time frame you think he could have negotiated some kind of terms with GB and the USA. You are making your silly case by simply overstating the authority of Canaris and the Abwehr. Your lack of understanding of the German power structure allows you to live in the fantasy world you have created.

Just admit I've destroyed you.
That's why you can't quote my documentation to show any thing untrue about it.

How, someone with the advanced education that I have has to put up with the nipping at my heels from a history-challenged imbecile like you is a sign of the deterioration of America.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Frau Brauns "military and diplomatic strategy"

I'm not making this up

2. "Ending the war in May 1940 (before we were even in it) would have left Hitler in control of most of Western Europe and Hitler marching into the USSR."
a. No it wouldn't...it would have ended Hitler's reign...and turned over Germany to anti-Nazis who would have surrendered to the Allies.

May 1940, Hitler controls France, Netherlands, Belgium, Norway....Operation Barbarossa is just beginning

Frau Braun seems to think FDR could have magically turned Germany over to the anti-Nazis who would quickly surrender

You can't make this shit up

But you make up stuff all the time.

I've asked you to support several of your statements in just the last few posts....and you haven't been able to...

You simply lie,


"[The real American] seems to think FDR could have magically turned Germany over to the anti-Nazis who would quickly surrender."

Exactly what would have happened.


I can back up everything I post.


Roosevelt's fear of "offending" Stalin resulted inhis administration ordering that the German anti-Nazi resistance be totally disregarded.



1. One of the highest anti-Nazi Germans was thechief of Nazi Germany's intelligence division, the Abwehr, Admiral Wm. Canaris. Try as he might, the Allies would not open communications channels with Canaris .

Britain's intelligence chief said this about Canaris:'It is said that had it not been for the Foreign Office's fear of offending Russia that he might have established direct contact with the admiral [Canaris] in 1942 on the removal of Hitler as a means of shortening the war."
“Gen. Menzies, Ex-British Intelligence Chief, Dies,” New York Times, May 31, 1968.


Did you see the date: 1942.When did the war with Germany finally end?

"May 7, 1945: Germany surrenders unconditionally to the Allies at Reims"Germany surrenders unconditionally to the Allies at Reims ? History.com This Day in History ? 5/7/1945

What prevented an earlier conclusion to the war?
"... fear of offending Russia..."

Fear of offending, it seems to me, suggests a relationship with one's superiors....
i.e., Roosevelt considered Stalin his superior.



Again?

"...on the removal of Hitler as a means of shortening the war."

Get it, you lying sack of sewage???

Canaris would have been quickly executed, just like everyone else who tried to broker a peace.
Hitler was funny that way

Just as I thought.
You get your education from 'the Magic 8-Ball"

 

[Marxist]

How could Germany surrender if Hitler didn't surrender? Is there evidence somewhere to indicate there was a force in Germany that could rebel against Hitler and his doctrine of no surrender under any conditions and go against him without being lined up in front of a wall and shot or strung up with piano wire?

"How could Germany surrender if Hitler didn't surrender?"

Answered in detail with links and sources in posts #194 and #195.....you dope.


See if you can challenge any of it.
Double-dog dare ya.'

You are basing your assessments on Canaris and the Abwehr. Many of the the leaders of that military intelligence group were not even Nazi party members and under constant investigation and harassment of the SS. The Abwehr was subservient to the SS. If compared to US military intelligence of today it would be like comparing the DIA to the CIA. It had limited and well defined tasks and duties that were mostly restricted to purely military duties. Canaris failed in his assignment to reach agreement with Franco in 1940, and Germany and Spain had working relationships and diplomatic agreements during the time frame you think he could have negotiated some kind of terms with GB and the USA. You are making your silly case by simply overstating the authority of Canaris and the Abwehr. Your lack of understanding of the German power structure allows you to live in the fantasy world you have created.

Just admit I've destroyed you.
That's why you can't quote my documentation to show any thing untrue about it.

How, someone with the advanced education that I have has to put up with the nipping at my heels from a history-challenged imbecile like you is a sign of the deterioration of America.

I've lost all hope, you should drink some bleach, hitler would appreciate that.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

FDR was the greatest enabler of history's two greatest Progressive mass murderers: Stalin and Mao

Ah yes, enter the echo chamber...

"Uncle" Joe, beloved by Americans biggest scumbag President FDR immediately AFTER starving 6 to 7 million people to death in the Ukraine

You people are truly sick fucks

Uncle Joe beat Hitler for FDR

You meant to say Patton instead of Progressive founding father josrf

Frau Brauns "military and diplomatic strategy"

I'm not making this up

2. "Ending the war in May 1940 (before we were even in it) would have left Hitler in control of most of Western Europe and Hitler marching into the USSR."
a. No it wouldn't...it would have ended Hitler's reign...and turned over Germany to anti-Nazis who would have surrendered to the Allies.

May 1940, Hitler controls France, Netherlands, Belgium, Norway....Operation Barbarossa is just beginning

Frau Braun seems to think FDR could have magically turned Germany over to the anti-Nazis who would quickly surrender

You can't make this shit up

But you make up stuff all the time.

I've asked you to support several of your statements in just the last few posts....and you haven't been able to...

You simply lie,


"[The real American] seems to think FDR could have magically turned Germany over to the anti-Nazis who would quickly surrender."

Exactly what would have happened.


I can back up everything I post.


Roosevelt's fear of "offending" Stalin resulted inhis administration ordering that the German anti-Nazi resistance be totally disregarded.



1. One of the highest anti-Nazi Germans was thechief of Nazi Germany's intelligence division, the Abwehr, Admiral Wm. Canaris. Try as he might, the Allies would not open communications channels with Canaris .

Britain's intelligence chief said this about Canaris:'It is said that had it not been for the Foreign Office's fear of offending Russia that he might have established direct contact with the admiral [Canaris] in 1942 on the removal of Hitler as a means of shortening the war."
“Gen. Menzies, Ex-British Intelligence Chief, Dies,” New York Times, May 31, 1968.


Did you see the date: 1942.When did the war with Germany finally end?

"May 7, 1945: Germany surrenders unconditionally to the Allies at Reims"Germany surrenders unconditionally to the Allies at Reims ? History.com This Day in History ? 5/7/1945

What prevented an earlier conclusion to the war?
"... fear of offending Russia..."

Fear of offending, it seems to me, suggests a relationship with one's superiors....
i.e., Roosevelt considered Stalin his superior.



Again?

"...on the removal of Hitler as a means of shortening the war."

Get it, you lying sack of sewage???

Canaris would have been quickly executed, just like everyone else who tried to broker a peace.
Hitler was funny that way

There was at least one attempt on his life. No doubt a real peace would have lead to others

 

[rightwinger]

How could Germany surrender if Hitler didn't surrender? Is there evidence somewhere to indicate there was a force in Germany that could rebel against Hitler and his doctrine of no surrender under any conditions and go against him without being lined up in front of a wall and shot or strung up with piano wire?

The magical "anti-Nazis" of Frau Brauns fantasies did not even have enough power in May 1945 to arrange terms of surrender. This with the Nazi army crumbling and manned by little boys and old men

THe anti-Nazis of 1945 knew that there was no chance of any "terms of surrender". Allied policy had been very clear for a long time.

5 years might be the very best case scenario.

2 years? A border in the COld War that does not run right down the middle of Germany? Perhaps a setup that defuses that Cold War?

One does have to judge historical figures based on what they knew at the time.

But FDR signed an agreement with Stalin, where Stalin promised to have free elections in Soviet occupied Europe.

Did FDR believe that?

Did he have any plans to follow up on that?

Did he just write off Eastern Europe?

Did he give any consideration for the Balance of Power in the Post War world?

He had little choice

Possession is nine tenths of the law and the Soviets were unwilling to give up conquered territory after losing 20 million people

 

[CrusaderFrank]

How could Germany surrender if Hitler didn't surrender? Is there evidence somewhere to indicate there was a force in Germany that could rebel against Hitler and his doctrine of no surrender under any conditions and go against him without being lined up in front of a wall and shot or strung up with piano wire?

"How could Germany surrender if Hitler didn't surrender?"

Answered in detail with links and sources in posts #194 and #195.....you dope.


See if you can challenge any of it.
Double-dog dare ya.'

You are basing your assessments on Canaris and the Abwehr. Many of the the leaders of that military intelligence group were not even Nazi party members and under constant investigation and harassment of the SS. The Abwehr was subservient to the SS. If compared to US military intelligence of today it would be like comparing the DIA to the CIA. It had limited and well defined tasks and duties that were mostly restricted to purely military duties. Canaris failed in his assignment to reach agreement with Franco in 1940, and Germany and Spain had working relationships and diplomatic agreements during the time frame you think he could have negotiated some kind of terms with GB and the USA. You are making your silly case by simply overstating the authority of Canaris and the Abwehr. Your lack of understanding of the German power structure allows you to live in the fantasy world you have created.

Just admit I've destroyed you.
That's why you can't quote my documentation to show any thing untrue about it.

How, someone with the advanced education that I have has to put up with the nipping at my heels from a history-challenged imbecile like you is a sign of the deterioration of America.

I've lost all hope, you should drink some bleach, hitler would appreciate that.

Since you lost all hope, maybe there's a bottle of Clorox in your future

 

[Marxist]

How could Germany surrender if Hitler didn't surrender? Is there evidence somewhere to indicate there was a force in Germany that could rebel against Hitler and his doctrine of no surrender under any conditions and go against him without being lined up in front of a wall and shot or strung up with piano wire?

The magical "anti-Nazis" of Frau Brauns fantasies did not even have enough power in May 1945 to arrange terms of surrender. This with the Nazi army crumbling and manned by little boys and old men

THe anti-Nazis of 1945 knew that there was no chance of any "terms of surrender". Allied policy had been very clear for a long time.

5 years might be the very best case scenario.

2 years? A border in the COld War that does not run right down the middle of Germany? Perhaps a setup that defuses that Cold War?

One does have to judge historical figures based on what they knew at the time.

But FDR signed an agreement with Stalin, where Stalin promised to have free elections in Soviet occupied Europe.

Did FDR believe that?

Did he have any plans to follow up on that?

Did he just write off Eastern Europe?

Did he give any consideration for the Balance of Power in the Post War world?

He had little choice

Possession is nine tenths of the law and the Soviets were unwilling to give up conquered territory after losing 20 million people

Good for the soviets.

 

[rightwinger]

FDR was the greatest enabler of history's two greatest Progressive mass murderers: Stalin and Mao

Ah yes, enter the echo chamber...

"Uncle" Joe, beloved by Americans biggest scumbag President FDR immediately AFTER starving 6 to 7 million people to death in the Ukraine

You people are truly sick fucks

Uncle Joe beat Hitler for FDR

You meant to say Patton instead of Progressive founding father josrf

Frau Brauns "military and diplomatic strategy"

I'm not making this up

2. "Ending the war in May 1940 (before we were even in it) would have left Hitler in control of most of Western Europe and Hitler marching into the USSR."
a. No it wouldn't...it would have ended Hitler's reign...and turned over Germany to anti-Nazis who would have surrendered to the Allies.

May 1940, Hitler controls France, Netherlands, Belgium, Norway....Operation Barbarossa is just beginning

Frau Braun seems to think FDR could have magically turned Germany over to the anti-Nazis who would quickly surrender

You can't make this shit up

But you make up stuff all the time.

I've asked you to support several of your statements in just the last few posts....and you haven't been able to...

You simply lie,


"[The real American] seems to think FDR could have magically turned Germany over to the anti-Nazis who would quickly surrender."

Exactly what would have happened.


I can back up everything I post.


Roosevelt's fear of "offending" Stalin resulted inhis administration ordering that the German anti-Nazi resistance be totally disregarded.



1. One of the highest anti-Nazi Germans was thechief of Nazi Germany's intelligence division, the Abwehr, Admiral Wm. Canaris. Try as he might, the Allies would not open communications channels with Canaris .

Britain's intelligence chief said this about Canaris:'It is said that had it not been for the Foreign Office's fear of offending Russia that he might have established direct contact with the admiral [Canaris] in 1942 on the removal of Hitler as a means of shortening the war."
“Gen. Menzies, Ex-British Intelligence Chief, Dies,” New York Times, May 31, 1968.


Did you see the date: 1942.When did the war with Germany finally end?

"May 7, 1945: Germany surrenders unconditionally to the Allies at Reims"Germany surrenders unconditionally to the Allies at Reims ? History.com This Day in History ? 5/7/1945

What prevented an earlier conclusion to the war?
"... fear of offending Russia..."

Fear of offending, it seems to me, suggests a relationship with one's superiors....
i.e., Roosevelt considered Stalin his superior.



Again?

"...on the removal of Hitler as a means of shortening the war."

Get it, you lying sack of sewage???

Canaris would have been quickly executed, just like everyone else who tried to broker a peace.
Hitler was funny that way

There was at least one attempt on his life. No doubt a real peace would have lead to others

Patton?

Patton may have killed 20,000 Germans
Uncle Joe killed 8 million

 

[Marxist]

How could Germany surrender if Hitler didn't surrender? Is there evidence somewhere to indicate there was a force in Germany that could rebel against Hitler and his doctrine of no surrender under any conditions and go against him without being lined up in front of a wall and shot or strung up with piano wire?

"How could Germany surrender if Hitler didn't surrender?"

Answered in detail with links and sources in posts #194 and #195.....you dope.


See if you can challenge any of it.
Double-dog dare ya.'

You are basing your assessments on Canaris and the Abwehr. Many of the the leaders of that military intelligence group were not even Nazi party members and under constant investigation and harassment of the SS. The Abwehr was subservient to the SS. If compared to US military intelligence of today it would be like comparing the DIA to the CIA. It had limited and well defined tasks and duties that were mostly restricted to purely military duties. Canaris failed in his assignment to reach agreement with Franco in 1940, and Germany and Spain had working relationships and diplomatic agreements during the time frame you think he could have negotiated some kind of terms with GB and the USA. You are making your silly case by simply overstating the authority of Canaris and the Abwehr. Your lack of understanding of the German power structure allows you to live in the fantasy world you have created.

Just admit I've destroyed you.
That's why you can't quote my documentation to show any thing untrue about it
How, someone with the advanced education that I have has to put up with the nipping at my heels from a history-challenged imbecile like you is a sign of the deterioration of America.

I've lost all hope, you should drink some bleach, hitler would appreciate that.

Since you lost all hope, maybe there's a bottle of Clorox in your future

 

[CrusaderFrank]

FDR was the greatest enabler of history's two greatest Progressive mass murderers: Stalin and Mao

Ah yes, enter the echo chamber...

"Uncle" Joe, beloved by Americans biggest scumbag President FDR immediately AFTER starving 6 to 7 million people to death in the Ukraine

You people are truly sick fucks

Uncle Joe beat Hitler for FDR

You meant to say Patton instead of Progressive founding father josrf

Frau Brauns "military and diplomatic strategy"

I'm not making this up

2. "Ending the war in May 1940 (before we were even in it) would have left Hitler in control of most of Western Europe and Hitler marching into the USSR."
a. No it wouldn't...it would have ended Hitler's reign...and turned over Germany to anti-Nazis who would have surrendered to the Allies.

May 1940, Hitler controls France, Netherlands, Belgium, Norway....Operation Barbarossa is just beginning

Frau Braun seems to think FDR could have magically turned Germany over to the anti-Nazis who would quickly surrender

You can't make this shit up

But you make up stuff all the time.

I've asked you to support several of your statements in just the last few posts....and you haven't been able to...

You simply lie,


"[The real American] seems to think FDR could have magically turned Germany over to the anti-Nazis who would quickly surrender."

Exactly what would have happened.


I can back up everything I post.


Roosevelt's fear of "offending" Stalin resulted inhis administration ordering that the German anti-Nazi resistance be totally disregarded.



1. One of the highest anti-Nazi Germans was thechief of Nazi Germany's intelligence division, the Abwehr, Admiral Wm. Canaris. Try as he might, the Allies would not open communications channels with Canaris .

Britain's intelligence chief said this about Canaris:'It is said that had it not been for the Foreign Office's fear of offending Russia that he might have established direct contact with the admiral [Canaris] in 1942 on the removal of Hitler as a means of shortening the war."
“Gen. Menzies, Ex-British Intelligence Chief, Dies,” New York Times, May 31, 1968.


Did you see the date: 1942.When did the war with Germany finally end?

"May 7, 1945: Germany surrenders unconditionally to the Allies at Reims"Germany surrenders unconditionally to the Allies at Reims ? History.com This Day in History ? 5/7/1945

What prevented an earlier conclusion to the war?
"... fear of offending Russia..."

Fear of offending, it seems to me, suggests a relationship with one's superiors....
i.e., Roosevelt considered Stalin his superior.



Again?

"...on the removal of Hitler as a means of shortening the war."

Get it, you lying sack of sewage???

Canaris would have been quickly executed, just like everyone else who tried to broker a peace.
Hitler was funny that way

There was at least one attempt on his life. No doubt a real peace would have lead to others

Patton?

Patton may have killed 20,000 Germans
Uncle Joe killed 10 million

Uncle Joe killed more Soviets

 

[Moonglow]

FDR was the greatest enabler of history's two greatest Progressive mass murderers: Stalin and Mao

Ah yes, enter the echo chamber...

"Uncle" Joe, beloved by Americans biggest scumbag President FDR immediately AFTER starving 6 to 7 million people to death in the Ukraine

You people are truly sick fucks

Uncle Joe beat Hitler for FDR

You meant to say Patton instead of Progressive founding father josrf

Frau Brauns "military and diplomatic strategy"

I'm not making this up

2. "Ending the war in May 1940 (before we were even in it) would have left Hitler in control of most of Western Europe and Hitler marching into the USSR."
a. No it wouldn't...it would have ended Hitler's reign...and turned over Germany to anti-Nazis who would have surrendered to the Allies.

May 1940, Hitler controls France, Netherlands, Belgium, Norway....Operation Barbarossa is just beginning

Frau Braun seems to think FDR could have magically turned Germany over to the anti-Nazis who would quickly surrender

You can't make this shit up

But you make up stuff all the time.

I've asked you to support several of your statements in just the last few posts....and you haven't been able to...

You simply lie,


"[The real American] seems to think FDR could have magically turned Germany over to the anti-Nazis who would quickly surrender."

Exactly what would have happened.


I can back up everything I post.


Roosevelt's fear of "offending" Stalin resulted inhis administration ordering that the German anti-Nazi resistance be totally disregarded.



1. One of the highest anti-Nazi Germans was thechief of Nazi Germany's intelligence division, the Abwehr, Admiral Wm. Canaris. Try as he might, the Allies would not open communications channels with Canaris .

Britain's intelligence chief said this about Canaris:'It is said that had it not been for the Foreign Office's fear of offending Russia that he might have established direct contact with the admiral [Canaris] in 1942 on the removal of Hitler as a means of shortening the war."
“Gen. Menzies, Ex-British Intelligence Chief, Dies,” New York Times, May 31, 1968.


Did you see the date: 1942.When did the war with Germany finally end?

"May 7, 1945: Germany surrenders unconditionally to the Allies at Reims"Germany surrenders unconditionally to the Allies at Reims ? History.com This Day in History ? 5/7/1945

What prevented an earlier conclusion to the war?
"... fear of offending Russia..."

Fear of offending, it seems to me, suggests a relationship with one's superiors....
i.e., Roosevelt considered Stalin his superior.



Again?

"...on the removal of Hitler as a means of shortening the war."

Get it, you lying sack of sewage???

Canaris would have been quickly executed, just like everyone else who tried to broker a peace.
Hitler was funny that way

There was at least one attempt on his life. No doubt a real peace would have lead to others

There was around 32 attempts on Hitlers life...

 

[PoliticalChic]

Frau Brauns "military and diplomatic strategy"

I'm not making this up

2. "Ending the war in May 1940 (before we were even in it) would have left Hitler in control of most of Western Europe and Hitler marching into the USSR."
a. No it wouldn't...it would have ended Hitler's reign...and turned over Germany to anti-Nazis who would have surrendered to the Allies.

May 1940, Hitler controls France, Netherlands, Belgium, Norway....Operation Barbarossa is just beginning

Frau Braun seems to think FDR could have magically turned Germany over to the anti-Nazis who would quickly surrender

You can't make this shit up

But you make up stuff all the time.

I've asked you to support several of your statements in just the last few posts....and you haven't been able to...

You simply lie,


"[The real American] seems to think FDR could have magically turned Germany over to the anti-Nazis who would quickly surrender."

Exactly what would have happened.


I can back up everything I post.


Roosevelt's fear of "offending" Stalin resulted inhis administration ordering that the German anti-Nazi resistance be totally disregarded.



1. One of the highest anti-Nazi Germans was thechief of Nazi Germany's intelligence division, the Abwehr, Admiral Wm. Canaris. Try as he might, the Allies would not open communications channels with Canaris .

Britain's intelligence chief said this about Canaris:'It is said that had it not been for the Foreign Office's fear of offending Russia that he might have established direct contact with the admiral [Canaris] in 1942 on the removal of Hitler as a means of shortening the war."
“Gen. Menzies, Ex-British Intelligence Chief, Dies,” New York Times, May 31, 1968.


Did you see the date: 1942.When did the war with Germany finally end?

"May 7, 1945: Germany surrenders unconditionally to the Allies at Reims"Germany surrenders unconditionally to the Allies at Reims ? History.com This Day in History ? 5/7/1945

What prevented an earlier conclusion to the war?
"... fear of offending Russia..."

Fear of offending, it seems to me, suggests a relationship with one's superiors....
i.e., Roosevelt considered Stalin his superior.



Again?

"...on the removal of Hitler as a means of shortening the war."

Get it, you lying sack of sewage???

Canaris would have been quickly executed, just like everyone else who tried to broker a peace.
Hitler was funny that way

Good to see you've given up your previous lies re: that I claimed surrender would have been via Hitler.

I love beating liars like you into submission.

 

[Camp]

How could Germany surrender if Hitler didn't surrender? Is there evidence somewhere to indicate there was a force in Germany that could rebel against Hitler and his doctrine of no surrender under any conditions and go against him without being lined up in front of a wall and shot or strung up with piano wire?

"How could Germany surrender if Hitler didn't surrender?"

Answered in detail with links and sources in posts #194 and #195.....you dope.


See if you can challenge any of it.
Double-dog dare ya.'

You are basing your assessments on Canaris and the Abwehr. Many of the the leaders of that military intelligence group were not even Nazi party members and under constant investigation and harassment of the SS. The Abwehr was subservient to the SS. If compared to US military intelligence of today it would be like comparing the DIA to the CIA. It had limited and well defined tasks and duties that were mostly restricted to purely military duties. Canaris failed in his assignment to reach agreement with Franco in 1940, and Germany and Spain had working relationships and diplomatic agreements during the time frame you think he could have negotiated some kind of terms with GB and the USA. You are making your silly case by simply overstating the authority of Canaris and the Abwehr. Your lack of understanding of the German power structure allows you to live in the fantasy world you have created.

Just admit I've destroyed you.
That's why you can't quote my documentation to show any thing untrue about it.

How, someone with the advanced education that I have has to put up with the nipping at my heels from a history-challenged imbecile like you is a sign of the deterioration of America.

I just refuted your documentation by explaining how you have misused and misrepresented your analysis of the importance and authority of Canaris and the Abwehr. You use a method of misrepresentation by quoting real quotes, but distorting them and misrepresenting them. The actual quotes may be accurate, but the meanings you give to them are inaccurate and manipulated to conform to your agenda. Point of fact is that your analysis of Canaris and the Abwehr is distorted and misrepresented and you can not show my analysis of your distortion is inaccurate. My analysis is factually spot on.
You are arguing that Canaris should have been or could have been discussing surrender terms with the west at a time that he was discussing an alliance between Spain and Germany with Franco. It shows your lack of knowledge and expertise in the diplomatic activities during the time frame you are claiming to be expert about.