Reaching out to the Occupy People

[PredFan]

Occupied here may be the only occupier who actually has a rational thought, and yet even he cannot defend the rediculous claims and demands that his group espouces.

 

[code1211]

To be clear, Wall Street is regulated.

The Housing bubble was caused because the lending industry was not regulated. I recall that when I refined my house to get a lower interest rate in the 90's, it was done in the rented offices of a loan originator, not a bank.

That loan was made and then sold, 3 times before it was paid off, and that is what created the housing bubble.

The loans made created a risk, but that risk was not born by the original lender. The loans were bundled and sold and a large enough percent were bad and became the now famous "Toxic Assets" that TARP was supposed to clear up, but that are still in existence and still a ticking time bomb thanks to the ill directed and probably corrupt Obama administration dupes.

Banking and Wall Street are both pretty regulated. The Loan originators were not in such rigid constraints and the Congress of the USA passed laws to push lenders into lending to this who could not repay and should never have been given the loans in the first place.

Do you want to know who is responsible? I'll tell you. It is the people and the government of the USA. We all had a hand in it and trying to deflect blame to others is pointless and Liberal.

Glass-Steagall would have prevented the mortgage back derivative bonanza from happening.

But let me get this straight. Because of lax regulation, people exploited and got rich off, knowing they were doing something extremely risky (So much so..they hedged their bets by taking out insurance)..it's the "government's fault".

Really?

At what point is it the "Greedy Unethical Bastard's" Fault?

These people hire autistic math savants to design investment schemes that defy regulation or even understanding by our regulators, they know they are being devious.

It's not too difficult to regulate if that is the goal. That was not the goal.

 

[code1211]

If we had really intelligent people, they would also understand a corporation cannot have an individual thought, therefore should not be allowed to contribute to political individuals directly or indirectly.

If that is true of corporations, it is true of any group of people organized for any reason.

 

[code1211]

Corporations are legal personages so they can pay taxes. They are legal personages so they can be sued. They are legal people for the protection of the public not the protection of the corporations. Without corporations being legal people, there would be no multimillion dollar lawsuits against corporations.

Thankfully intelligent people will be in charge for the foreseeable future and we won't ever see corporations lose their legal personhood. Some might whine and cry for it, but that's because they don't know any better.

Corporate personhood has given us too big to fail and a 100 to 1 ratio of lobbyists to congressman, it's great. How long does it take to sue a bank? The only accountability measure real persons have against big corporations is a joke.

If there was nobody willing to accept a bribe, those offering the bribes would be out of business.

Money, like water, often flows to the lowest point and that point is the Congress of the United States.

 

[Katzndogz]

The right always reaches out with fixed bayonets and no desire for understanding.

I have to agree with that for myself personally. I can't answer for the entire right, but I have no desire whatsoever to understand the motivation of the thief, whether its a mugger in an alley or a man in suit here from the government.

I heard the perfect description of OWS this morning. It's Wayne's World living in the basement of the Golden Girls.

There is no perfect glib definition for such a diverse group of people with differing and often contradictory goals. Democracy is messy, fascism is clean and simple.

The occupiers have liberty. They can absolutely vote for themselves the right to take what others have worked for. There is nothing stopping them, then they can face the fixed bayonets of those who are protecting their property. That's what makes democracy messy. It really isn't as complicated as the way you want to make it out to be.

There is a group of people with diverse and contradictory goals that all involve taking what they want from someone who has worked for it. The occupiers themselves are too cowardly to take what they want themselves. They want the government to do it for them. They want people to give them what they refuse to work for themselves. Give us free food and free condoms.

The occupy movement is dying. It has one hope left, just one, to become relevant and that is to step it up. They will not democratically get others to vote to support them. They must go to the next level and physically wrest another's property away. As long as they are beggars they will be refused.

 

[miami_thomas]

Oh..and money is not speech.

Money is a multi-functional tool. It buys ink, paper, air time. What is your point? Let me guess. People and Organizations that are like minded with you can't do anything wrong, and People and Organizations that are not, can't do anything right. Got Ya.

Naw.

Corporations are not people.
Money is not speech.

Simple.

people run the corporation. People work for the corporation. People own the corporation. You sir are an idiot.

 

[code1211]

If a corporation was an actual person and he lived next door you would hate his guts. Playing his stadium sized stereo system in the middle of the night and dumping his garbage over your fence.

And paying the incomes of all of your neighbors, paying enough tax through payroll taxes to support SS and creating and supporting the products and communities that comprise our world.

Think of the world without corporations. What's left?

 

[The T]

If we had really intelligent people, they would also understand a corporation cannot have an individual thought, therefore should not be allowed to contribute to political individuals directly or indirectly.

Corporations are people. They are all the people who work there, and all of the consumers who buy the product. That isn't a hard concept.

A corporation is not held to the same standards of justice as an individual. It cannot be sentenced to the death penalty for instance.

Corporations are made up of unique individuals.

Your problem is that you won't SHED the 'groupthink' mentality.

 

[code1211]

If we had really intelligent people, they would also understand a corporation cannot have an individual thought, therefore should not be allowed to contribute to political individuals directly or indirectly.

So corporations would not be allowed to support social programs? There would not be such a thing as being a good corporate citizen? No corporate gay friendly policies. No corporate foundations or charities. What liberals want is corporate personhood, but only in very select areas. They can't oppose any liberal ideals, but can support all liberal ideals.

If corporations cannot support political candidates neither should unions.

There is a difference between supporting a candidate and having undue influence over that candidate.

If a man cannot be bribed, the bribe will not occur.

 

[code1211]

If a corporation was an actual person and he lived next door you would hate his guts. Playing his stadium sized stereo system in the middle of the night and dumping his garbage over your fence.

Corporations do live next door to people and they do play the stereo in the middle of the night and throw garbage over the fence. Then they get sued. If they weren't legal personages they couldn't be sued. You would be required to identify the one person turning up the stereo and thowing the garbage and be limited to that person only.

No, your corporate neighbor already bought the cops and judges, no remedy there.

Are you against the practice of giving or taking in the topic of bribes?

 

[code1211]

No, your corporate neighbor already bought the cops and judges, no remedy there.

Is that better or worse than liberals who own the cops and judges? Eliminating impartial justice has been a liberal goal for decades.

Instead of a corporate neighbor who kept the stero at max and threw garbage around, suppose it was an occupy site with 24/7 drum circles and shitting on your front lawn. Stopping that would be a denial of free speech wouldn't it? Who can you complain to? Not the police. They won't clear the space. You might be able to clean up the garbage the corporation throws, try pepper spraying occupiers keeping you from going to work.

Pretty crappy comparison as private property rights trump 1st amendment rights.

Without property rights, there are no rights.

 

[PredFan]

Look people, it isn't hard to understand.

If I work for a company that makes widgets, my livelyhood depends upon a healthy company and the sales of widgets. It is in my best interest, as a person, for my company to have people in washington who can persuade politicians to make the market and the business climate favorable to widgets and widget-making.

I'm a person, I make widgets for a living, my company's efforts in Washington benefit me, and represent me, the widget-making PERSON.

 

[saveliberty]

It takes a great deal of money to win a seat in Congress. Your either incredibly rich to begin with or need big donors. Doesn't have to be a bribe.

 

[code1211]

This fellow and those of you are trying to reach out to the occupy crowd?
Well your doing it all wrong.

The right always reaches out with fixed bayonets and no desire for understanding.

Not so. What I want is for you to leave me the Hell alone.

What you want is to have me support you.

The bayonet is not to force you to do anything but leave me the hell alone.

Understand?

 

[code1211]

The right always reaches out with fixed bayonets and no desire for understanding.

I have to agree with that for myself personally. I can't answer for the entire right, but I have no desire whatsoever to understand the motivation of the thief, whether its a mugger in an alley or a man in suit here from the government.

I heard the perfect description of OWS this morning. It's Wayne's World living in the basement of the Golden Girls.

There is no perfect glib definition for such a diverse group of people with differing and often contradictory goals. Democracy is messy, fascism is clean and simple.

Fascism is evolved Liberalism.

 

[miami_thomas]

With the money they've been siphoning off from the the middle class for the last 30 years.

In this context, define siphoning and give examples.

"Trickle down" tax cuts. Leveraged corporate buyouts. Banking transaction fees. Tax breaks for outsourcers.

so not taxing is stealing. How do you come to that. It is their money and taxes is taking it away. In your mind everything belongs to the government and that is not America.

 

[miami_thomas]

If we had really intelligent people, they would also understand a corporation cannot have an individual thought, therefore should not be allowed to contribute to political individuals directly or indirectly.

So corporations would not be allowed to support social programs? There would not be such a thing as being a good corporate citizen? No corporate gay friendly policies. No corporate foundations or charities. What liberals want is corporate personhood, but only in very select areas. They can't oppose any liberal ideals, but can support all liberal ideals.

If corporations cannot support political candidates neither should unions.

There is a difference between supporting a candidate and having undue influence over that candidate.

the tea party is proving money doesn't matter. See Indiana.

 

[miami_thomas]

If a corporation was an actual person and he lived next door you would hate his guts. Playing his stadium sized stereo system in the middle of the night and dumping his garbage over your fence.

Corporations do live next door to people and they do play the stereo in the middle of the night and throw garbage over the fence. Then they get sued. If they weren't legal personages they couldn't be sued. You would be required to identify the one person turning up the stereo and thowing the garbage and be limited to that person only.

No, your corporate neighbor already bought the cops and judges, no remedy there.

that is why corporations are sued for millions all the time. Please provide proof. I can provide tons proving you wrong.

 

[code1211]

It takes a great deal of money to win a seat in Congress. Your either incredibly rich to begin with or need big donors. Doesn't have to be a bribe.

It doesn't have to be, but it is.

The majority party controls the committee membership and chairs. The really powerful committees like Ways and Means get huge amounts of money flowing through them to themselves and other other members and the political parties.

How to correct it? Good question.

Maybe do a deal like the NFL with the TV revenues. Give them all equally to all members for campaigns and anyone with their hand or collective hand in the kitty gets it cut off.

If a "donation" is made, it goes to all equally and nobody has the chance to get a bribe.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

.....being a liberal in the south sucks balls.

Everything's temporary!