Question to Christians Part Two

[PostmodernProph]

This questions pertains to an interpretation of the Bible that most moderate Christians have. The interpretation that some parts of the book are literal (ie. the parts that talk about Jesus and pretty much all of the New Testament) and the parts that are metaphorical and meant to be a guideline for how to live your life as opposed to the literal and historical truth of the world. This view confuses me. Where do you draw the line between historical fact and poetic allegory? Many Old Earth Christians that embrace the general principal of evolution (which is the vast majority of Christians) say that stories like the one's in Genesis about Noah's flood and even Adam and Eve and the Creation story are metaphors. Handed down by Moses and through the generations the way people back then could understand them. But now I get to crux of my question. Which is this. Jesus certainly didn't think the story of Adam and original sin was allegory. He allowed himself to be beaten and nailed to a cross in order to forgive mankind of that original sin. Your supposed savior sure didn't think he was up there on that cross for a metaphor. So why then do you look at Old Testament stories like the creation story as metaphor? How can you justify having an interpretation of the Bible that so clearly contradicts what your savior Jesus believed and said?

If Noah, Adam & Eve & Moses are allegories then so is the Jesus story.

why?......

 

[AtheistBuddah]

This questions pertains to an interpretation of the Bible that most moderate Christians have. The interpretation that some parts of the book are literal (ie. the parts that talk about Jesus and pretty much all of the New Testament) and the parts that are metaphorical and meant to be a guideline for how to live your life as opposed to the literal and historical truth of the world. This view confuses me. Where do you draw the line between historical fact and poetic allegory? Many Old Earth Christians that embrace the general principal of evolution (which is the vast majority of Christians) say that stories like the one's in Genesis about Noah's flood and even Adam and Eve and the Creation story are metaphors. Handed down by Moses and through the generations the way people back then could understand them. But now I get to crux of my question. Which is this. Jesus certainly didn't think the story of Adam and original sin was allegory. He allowed himself to be beaten and nailed to a cross in order to forgive mankind of that original sin. Your supposed savior sure didn't think he was up there on that cross for a metaphor. So why then do you look at Old Testament stories like the creation story as metaphor? How can you justify having an interpretation of the Bible that so clearly contradicts what your savior Jesus believed and said?

If Noah, Adam & Eve & Moses are allegories then so is the Jesus story.

why?......

Because those stories are the foundation of Abrahamic religion. If they are just made up stories than it's all just based on a falsehood. Explain why you don't think that is.

 

[Smilebong]

This questions pertains to an interpretation of the Bible that most moderate Christians have. The interpretation that some parts of the book are literal (ie. the parts that talk about Jesus and pretty much all of the New Testament) and the parts that are metaphorical and meant to be a guideline for how to live your life as opposed to the literal and historical truth of the world. This view confuses me. Where do you draw the line between historical fact and poetic allegory? Many Old Earth Christians that embrace the general principal of evolution (which is the vast majority of Christians) say that stories like the one's in Genesis about Noah's flood and even Adam and Eve and the Creation story are metaphors. Handed down by Moses and through the generations the way people back then could understand them. But now I get to crux of my question. Which is this. Jesus certainly didn't think the story of Adam and original sin was allegory. He allowed himself to be beaten and nailed to a cross in order to forgive mankind of that original sin. Your supposed savior sure didn't think he was up there on that cross for a metaphor. So why then do you look at Old Testament stories like the creation story as metaphor? How can you justify having an interpretation of the Bible that so clearly contradicts what your savior Jesus believed and said?

If Noah, Adam & Eve & Moses are allegories then so is the Jesus story.

why?......

Because Jesus considered Adam a historical figure. It doesn't necessarily make Jesus allegory, but it brings the credibility of everything about him into question.

 

[PostmodernProph]

If Noah, Adam & Eve & Moses are allegories then so is the Jesus story.

why?......

Because those stories are the foundation of Abrahamic religion. If they are just made up stories than it's all just based on a falsehood. Explain why you don't think that is.

okay.....I believe in Jesus......I don't read Genesis 1:2-Genesis 3 or Genesis 6 literally.....

this proves it is still possible to believe an Abrahamic religion while believing those stories are not literal......

thus, your claim is disproved......

 

[PostmodernProph]

If Noah, Adam & Eve & Moses are allegories then so is the Jesus story.

why?......

Because Jesus considered Adam a historical figure. It doesn't necessarily make Jesus allegory, but it brings the credibility of everything about him into question.

you can believe Adam was an historical figure without believing the text of Genesis 3 is the equivalent of a court stenographer's transcript.......

 

[AtheistBuddah]

why?......

Because those stories are the foundation of Abrahamic religion. If they are just made up stories than it's all just based on a falsehood. Explain why you don't think that is.

okay.....I believe in Jesus......I don't read Genesis 1:2-Genesis 3 or Genesis 6 literally.....

this proves it is still possible to believe an Abrahamic religion while believing those stories are not literal......

thus, your claim is disproved......

Sigh*

My claim wasn't that is was impossible to hold said view, obvious it is because you and many Christians I know personally think that way. What I was asking for was for one of you to explain your logic to me because I don't understand it and am genuinely curious.

 

[AtheistBuddah]

why?......

Because Jesus considered Adam a historical figure. It doesn't necessarily make Jesus allegory, but it brings the credibility of everything about him into question.

you can believe Adam was an historical figure without believing the text of Genesis 3 is the equivalent of a court stenographer's transcript.......

That's not what I'm asking. As far as I'm concerned that isn't in question. My question is do you think Jesus viewed Genesis as literal truth and if not, if you think he viewed those stories more or less how you do, what evidence can you show for that? And again, none of my questions are meant as attacks or to poke holes in your logic they are honest questions meant to improve my understanding of your logic.

 

[PostmodernProph]

Because those stories are the foundation of Abrahamic religion. If they are just made up stories than it's all just based on a falsehood. Explain why you don't think that is.

okay.....I believe in Jesus......I don't read Genesis 1:2-Genesis 3 or Genesis 6 literally.....

this proves it is still possible to believe an Abrahamic religion while believing those stories are not literal......

thus, your claim is disproved......

Sigh*

My claim wasn't that is was impossible to hold said view, obvious it is because you and many Christians I know personally think that way. What I was asking for was for one of you to explain your logic to me because I don't understand it and am genuinely curious.

you stated that if I believed Adam and Eve to be allegorical I had to believe Jesus was as well.....I pointed out that was not true.......the logic is simply that one does not hinge on the other......I can believe the Jesus is God, that he incarnated to save me from my sins, that I will not spend eternity in heaven unless I believe in him.....yet, I can I can simultaneously believe that the Genesis account of creation is a poem and that snakes don't really speak Hebrew......

 

[PostmodernProph]

Because Jesus considered Adam a historical figure. It doesn't necessarily make Jesus allegory, but it brings the credibility of everything about him into question.

you can believe Adam was an historical figure without believing the text of Genesis 3 is the equivalent of a court stenographer's transcript.......

That's not what I'm asking. As far as I'm concerned that isn't in question. My question is do you think Jesus viewed Genesis as literal truth and if not, if you think he viewed those stories more or less how you do, what evidence can you show for that? And again, none of my questions are meant as attacks or to poke holes in your logic they are honest questions meant to improve my understanding of your logic.

I think Jesus remembers going to the Garden and asking Adam and Eve why they were wearing leaves.....he doesn't need to question whether Genesis is the literal truth or not.....he's the one who decided what's IN Genesis.....

 

[koshergrl]

What's a "Moderate" Christian? A person who is only willing to defend HALF of the Bible?

Meh.

A moderate Christian is one who doesn't believe Christ is God, who is pro-abortion, and promotes homo marriage.

According to the anti-Christian extremists, anyway...

 

[AtheistBuddah]

okay.....I believe in Jesus......I don't read Genesis 1:2-Genesis 3 or Genesis 6 literally.....

this proves it is still possible to believe an Abrahamic religion while believing those stories are not literal......

thus, your claim is disproved......

Sigh*

My claim wasn't that is was impossible to hold said view, obvious it is because you and many Christians I know personally think that way. What I was asking for was for one of you to explain your logic to me because I don't understand it and am genuinely curious.

you stated that if I believed Adam and Eve to be allegorical I had to believe Jesus was as well.....I pointed out that was not true.......the logic is simply that one does not hinge on the other......I can believe the Jesus is God, that he incarnated to save me from my sins, that I will not spend eternity in heaven unless I believe in him.....yet, I can I can simultaneously believe that the Genesis account of creation is a poem and that snakes don't really speak Hebrew......

I made no such statement.

I do however argue that one does hinge on the other.

If Genesis is a poem then is original sin real? If Adam and Eve were metaphorical then wouldn't the act of eating the apple (which is what caused original sin) be metaphorical too? But then what was Jesus saving us from? You could say that there is some kind of original sin event that the Adam and Eve story represents but if that's true then why weren't we just told that story?

 

[Steven_R]

This questions pertains to an interpretation of the Bible that most moderate Christians have. The interpretation that some parts of the book are literal (ie. the parts that talk about Jesus and pretty much all of the New Testament) and the parts that are metaphorical and meant to be a guideline for how to live your life as opposed to the literal and historical truth of the world. This view confuses me. Where do you draw the line between historical fact and poetic allegory? Many Old Earth Christians that embrace the general principal of evolution (which is the vast majority of Christians) say that stories like the one's in Genesis about Noah's flood and even Adam and Eve and the Creation story are metaphors. Handed down by Moses and through the generations the way people back then could understand them. But now I get to crux of my question. Which is this. Jesus certainly didn't think the story of Adam and original sin was allegory. He allowed himself to be beaten and nailed to a cross in order to forgive mankind of that original sin. Your supposed savior sure didn't think he was up there on that cross for a metaphor. So why then do you look at Old Testament stories like the creation story as metaphor? How can you justify having an interpretation of the Bible that so clearly contradicts what your savior Jesus believed and said?

If Noah, Adam & Eve & Moses are allegories then so is the Jesus story.

“Now, if the book of Genesis is an allegory, then sin is an allegory, the Fall is an allegory and the need for a Savior is an allegory – but if we are all descendants of an allegory, where does that leave us? It destroys the foundation of all Christian doctrine—it destroys the foundation of the gospel.” - Ken Ham

If every word of the Bible is the literal truth and inherent, ineffable, and infallible Word of God, what does that mean for contradictions and factual errors in the Bible? If none of the Bible is an allegory, and someone finds a way the Bible can't literally be correct and/or true, then what?

 

[UllysesS.Archer]

If Noah, Adam & Eve & Moses are allegories then so is the Jesus story.

why?......

Because Jesus considered Adam a historical figure. It doesn't necessarily make Jesus allegory, but it brings the credibility of everything about him into question.

Why? because science thinks the world is millions of years old?

Let me ask you a question, how long did Adam walk in the Garden of Eden? The answer is no one knows. His age is revealed as 930 years old, but that is from the time that he would be removed from the garden. How long did Adam walk with God? We just don't know, maybe a million, maybe 10 million, for without sin in the world, Adam would not have aged a day.

 

[AtheistBuddah]

why?......

Because Jesus considered Adam a historical figure. It doesn't necessarily make Jesus allegory, but it brings the credibility of everything about him into question.

Why? because science thinks the world is millions of years old?

Let me ask you a question, how long did Adam walk in the Garden of Eden? The answer is no one knows. His age is revealed as 930 years old, but that is from the time that he would be removed from the garden. How long did Adam walk with God? We just don't know, maybe a million, maybe 10 million, for without sin in the world, Adam would not have aged a day.

How convenient.

 

[UllysesS.Archer]

Because Jesus considered Adam a historical figure. It doesn't necessarily make Jesus allegory, but it brings the credibility of everything about him into question.

Why? because science thinks the world is millions of years old?

Let me ask you a question, how long did Adam walk in the Garden of Eden? The answer is no one knows. His age is revealed as 930 years old, but that is from the time that he would be removed from the garden. How long did Adam walk with God? We just don't know, maybe a million, maybe 10 million, for without sin in the world, Adam would not have aged a day.

How convenient.

It may seem that way, but I ask you to think about it. God created the world and it was good. It was perfect. There was no sin in the world, so Adam was not created just to die, but to live forever, and as long as he ate of the tree of life, he would live forever.

Until God punished Adam, people were destined to live forever. And though this verse is lost in the shuffle to some, it clearly states that people will now die.

NLT version Genesis 3:19By the sweat of your brow will you have food to eat until you return to the ground from which you were made. For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return.”

KJV Genesis 3:19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it was thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Still, this alone was not enough, because if people were to stay in the Garden of Eden, they could still live forever, because of the tree of life.

NLT version Genesis 3:22Then the Lord God said, “Look, the human beings have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!”

In their ignorance of good and evil, there was no sin in the earth, only after eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil did sin start to break down the whole earth. Plus, if you study the breakdown of the earth, from the entrance of sin to present day, you can see the progression, not only in the Bible, but throughout human history.

 

[PostmodernProph]

Sigh*

My claim wasn't that is was impossible to hold said view, obvious it is because you and many Christians I know personally think that way. What I was asking for was for one of you to explain your logic to me because I don't understand it and am genuinely curious.

you stated that if I believed Adam and Eve to be allegorical I had to believe Jesus was as well.....I pointed out that was not true.......the logic is simply that one does not hinge on the other......I can believe the Jesus is God, that he incarnated to save me from my sins, that I will not spend eternity in heaven unless I believe in him.....yet, I can I can simultaneously believe that the Genesis account of creation is a poem and that snakes don't really speak Hebrew......

I made no such statement.

I do however argue that one does hinge on the other.

If Genesis is a poem then is original sin real? If Adam and Eve were metaphorical then wouldn't the act of eating the apple (which is what caused original sin) be metaphorical too? But then what was Jesus saving us from? You could say that there is some kind of original sin event that the Adam and Eve story represents but if that's true then why weren't we just told that story?

to describe creation in a poem is not a denial of creation, any more than describing love in song lyrics is a denial of love.....to communicate the disobedience of humanity in a metaphor does not make the disobedience a lie.......

 

[PostmodernProph]

Sigh*

My claim wasn't that is was impossible to hold said view, obvious it is because you and many Christians I know personally think that way. What I was asking for was for one of you to explain your logic to me because I don't understand it and am genuinely curious.

you stated that if I believed Adam and Eve to be allegorical I had to believe Jesus was as well.....I pointed out that was not true.......the logic is simply that one does not hinge on the other......I can believe the Jesus is God, that he incarnated to save me from my sins, that I will not spend eternity in heaven unless I believe in him.....yet, I can I can simultaneously believe that the Genesis account of creation is a poem and that snakes don't really speak Hebrew......

I made no such statement.

Sealybobo made that direct statement and when I asked why you answered "because"......if you didn't agree with it, wrong answer.......

 

[PostmodernProph]

Because Jesus considered Adam a historical figure. It doesn't necessarily make Jesus allegory, but it brings the credibility of everything about him into question.

Why? because science thinks the world is millions of years old?

Let me ask you a question, how long did Adam walk in the Garden of Eden? The answer is no one knows. His age is revealed as 930 years old, but that is from the time that he would be removed from the garden. How long did Adam walk with God? We just don't know, maybe a million, maybe 10 million, for without sin in the world, Adam would not have aged a day.

How convenient.

so you can prove it wrong simply because its convenient?....oh wait.....you didn't actually mean to prove anything did you......you just wanted to insinuate....forgot.....

 

[AtheistBuddah]

Why? because science thinks the world is millions of years old?

Let me ask you a question, how long did Adam walk in the Garden of Eden? The answer is no one knows. His age is revealed as 930 years old, but that is from the time that he would be removed from the garden. How long did Adam walk with God? We just don't know, maybe a million, maybe 10 million, for without sin in the world, Adam would not have aged a day.

How convenient.

It may seem that way, but I ask you to think about it. God created the world and it was good. It was perfect. There was no sin in the world, so Adam was not created just to die, but to live forever, and as long as he ate of the tree of life, he would live forever.

Until God punished Adam, people were destined to live forever. And though this verse is lost in the shuffle to some, it clearly states that people will now die.

NLT version Genesis 3:19By the sweat of your brow will you have food to eat until you return to the ground from which you were made. For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return.”

KJV Genesis 3:19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it was thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Still, this alone was not enough, because if people were to stay in the Garden of Eden, they could still live forever, because of the tree of life.

NLT version Genesis 3:22Then the Lord God said, “Look, the human beings have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!”

In their ignorance of good and evil, there was no sin in the earth, only after eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil did sin start to break down the whole earth. Plus, if you study the breakdown of the earth, from the entrance of sin to present day, you can see the progression, not only in the Bible, but throughout human history.

I assume here you are making the common claim among Christians that the Earth is "waxing worse and worse"

I sentiment that I wholeheartedly disagree with and one that the evidence simply doesn't support.

 

[AtheistBuddah]

Why? because science thinks the world is millions of years old?

Let me ask you a question, how long did Adam walk in the Garden of Eden? The answer is no one knows. His age is revealed as 930 years old, but that is from the time that he would be removed from the garden. How long did Adam walk with God? We just don't know, maybe a million, maybe 10 million, for without sin in the world, Adam would not have aged a day.

How convenient.

so you can prove it wrong simply because its convenient?....oh wait.....you didn't actually mean to prove anything did you......you just wanted to insinuate....forgot.....

You only say that because you don't know how frustrating it is to try and debate with one of you and have the "Because God" card pulled on me. Next time one of you asks how I know there is not God I'm going to say "Because Flying Spaghetti Monster"