Q for Followers of Jesus

[musicman]

ajwps:

I'm a little slow on the uptake, but I think I've finally got you figured out.

You loathe Christianity. It's one thing to dismiss or disregard a particular belief, but, no - you hate Christianity on a deeply personal level. That's why the movie, "The Passion" burned your ass so badly.

You don't hate Christians, though. You don't consider us worth the effort. Rather, you despise us. We are contemptible little sheep who posess neither your capacity for reason nor your unique insight into the truth. That's why it's up to you, as our intellectual superior, to disabuse us of our pathetic little fantasies.

You are blinded by hatred and arrogance. I honestly don't know what to tell you.

 

[musicman]

Modu$OperanDi:

Your entirely FAITH-BASED belief assumes the existence of intelligent life in what you assume to be a 12 billion year old universe. I'm saying that that seems as preposterous and unprovable to me as Christianity must seem to you.

I don't know how else to say it. I couldn't be any clearer if I was a buttonhook in the well-water.

 

[Joz]

Originally posted by ajwps
[BMark 3:31-35, Matthew 12:46-50, Luke 8:19-21.) (John 7:5) (Mark 6:4)

I'm surprised that as intelligent as you are, you've stooped to taking texts out of context. Shame on you. I tho't you were better than that.

 

[Modu$OperanDi]

Originally posted by musicman
Your entirely FAITH-BASED belief assumes the existence of intelligent life in what you assume to be a 12 billion year old universe. I'm saying that that seems as preposterous and unprovable to me as Christianity must seem to you.

Right...entirely faith based. Actually it's 13.7 Billion years, but that's beside the point.

Preposterous and unprovable...What do you think happens when we shine a telescope into the sky for month-long exposures? The light is just creating a mirage? We live in a galaxy, maybe you can't even force yourself to believe that. Have you ever seen pictures of other galaxies? Well, they aren't fake. But maybe those other galaxies are just there for show, with no intelligent life. THAT'S the part that is faith, but it really doesn't take too much faith, because what would be preposterous is a trillion gallaxies, only one of which (ours), holds life.

 

[musicman]

Then why the f**k didn't you SAY 13.7 billion years? It's your story - tell it right!

As for your viewpoint not taking much faith, that's really a value judgement, isn't it? it doesn't take much faith for me to believe in the Bible. I have all things as proof. Didn't this wondrous world, this galaxy, this universe have to START somehow? Doesn't denying the existence of a Supreme Being, a Creator, an all-wise guiding force, seem just a bit obtuse?

While I've got you on the line, what are your feelings on the nature of man's existence? Does it possess a duality? Is there a spiritual, eternal realm? If so, what do you make of it?

 

[Modu$OperanDi]

Originally posted by musicman
Then why the f**k didn't you SAY 13.7 billion years? It's your story - tell it right!

As for your viewpoint not taking much faith, that's really a value judgement, isn't it? it doesn't take much faith for me to believe in the Bible. I have all things as proof. Didn't this wondrous world, this galaxy, this universe have to START somehow? Doesn't denying the existence of a Supreme Being, a Creator, an all-wise guiding force, seem just a bit obtuse?

While I've got you on the line, what are your feelings on the nature of man's existence? Does it possess a duality? Is there a spiritual, eternal realm? If so, what do you make of it?

You are completely playing coy with my point on extrterrestrial life and it's apparent existence, which is essential to my original question, and which you said you find preposterous.

13.7 billion years is the scientific age of the universe, found using microwave light. 'Life' did not occur immediately after the big bang. That's why I said 12 or so billion, we don't know how long it took for the first galaxy and solar system and terrestrial planet to form. So next time refrain from lashing out, because it makes you sound stupid.

I do not deny a divine cause for this universe, in fact, that is why science intrigues my religious curiosity so much, so I can observe the way this universe works, and let my mind wander about what the fuck is going on on the levels higher than us. I believe there MUST be a purpose to our lives becasue our whole planet will be destroyed one day without us seemingly accomplishing anything. And I think it is foolhardy to believe our accomplishment is to follow 'god's word'. That is just dumb on so many levels.

I believe in evolution. And I think anyone who doesn't is absolutely wrong. I do not discount the possibility that we are somehow being 'moniterod' by a larger entity. But I very much lash out at the concept that we are being judged by having a sexual relationship before you are married or any other stupid 'stipulation' for 'being saved. Or I could just apologize for it all at the end of the week - and then I'll be saved. I also lash out at the concept of heaven and hell - honestly - that is fucking retarded. Things are more complicated than good and evil.



You don't sound like a fundamentalist, like our president, and if you aren't, then why not? What do you disagree with that prevents you from being one?

 

[musicman]

Modu$OperanDi:

Actually I'm not playing coy with your point at all. In order to answer your question, I would have to accept your assumptions on extraterrestrial life as fact. This I cannot do.

As for lashing out, I'm afraid that that's part and parcel of participating on a message board sometimes - particularly when the topic is as "hot" as this one. You and I are discussing our core beliefs, and I'm sure each of us is prepared to defend his viewpoint passionately.

But, the fact is, you do a lot of lashing out yourself. When you say things like, "I can't close my mind enough to be a Christian", you are displaying a marked prejudice. It's hard for a Christian to discuss things rationaally with you when you've as much as called him a closed-minded jackass at the outset of the conversation.

Man has made spectacular scientific and technological advances in a very short time. I just don't happen to think that this explosion of understanding negates the teachings of the Bible. Has the fact that man now knows many more things necessarily made him wiser? The Bible is essentially a record of the foibles and frailties of men - their weakness, stubbornness, and arrogance before a loving, merciful God. You and I - at our respective cores - are not a hell of a lot different from the men who lived two, four, or six thousand years ago. We just know more stuff, which doesn't always translate into "life smarts'.

I honestly don't know what kind of Christian to call myself. I was raised Catholic, but tossed that overboard pretty quickly - in my twenties - in favor of a reckless, angry kind of hedonism. I didn't know - or really give a shit - whether there was a God or not.

But life just sort of happens to you, you know? And my aching and longing brought me to Jesus. And guess what I found? Not some scowling forbidding entity waiting to whack my knuckles with a ruler every time I ate meat on Fridays, but a friend who sticks closer than a brother, who doesn't want me to do stupid shit because doing stupid shit ultimately makes ME unhappy.

You have a wonderful, inquisitive mind, Modu$operanDi. I hope that your search for truth brings you the kind of peace and happiness I have found.

'

 

[Modu$OperanDi]

Well, first off, what irritates my most about Christianity is its power to distort minds, and serve more of a destructive purpose than a constructive one - as do our technological advancements.

What is wisdom? I for one know that had I lived in a time when this globe was flat, my wisdom would be massacred. 'Life smarts' - people were just as fucked up then as they always will be. Evolutional advancement completely alienates life, and there isn't a thing in the world that can stop it. The bible gives no answers for man - only for the individual. The truth is, the beauty of this universe is that all this trouble we are facing in the world today, and the worst of it is still to come, is because of our minds relentless atatchment to life, and our obsession with death. I hate spiders, I kill them all the time, but we both came from this Earth, which came from this universe, which came from whatever, so we are all on the same playing field. It's just that we're a lot more interesting. Evolution never stops, and just because we are closer to the pinnacle of the cycle than anything else, doesn't mean it took a magic week to create us.

Another thing that bothers me, is that I get a lot of that "I hope you find what you're looking for" line from Christians. I have found everything divine I will ever need to move through my life with an eased mind. All I am looking for in life is to be the best I can be, and hopefully help others.

Christianity distorts nature. Science can distort nature. There is no right and wrong. Only nature. And that's why we're here. We are not here to fight for the good against the evil like we are Luke Skywalker.

I love talking about this shit, and I obviously like arguing, so you're a good sport for sticking with it.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Modu$OperanDi
Well, first off, what irritates my most about Christianity is its power to distort minds, and serve more of a destructive purpose than a constructive one - as do our technological advancements.

-Those technological advancements which you so readily discard are your entire basis for your belief system when you date the universe.

What is wisdom? I for one know that had I lived in a time when this globe was flat, my wisdom would be massacred. 'Life smarts' - people were just as fucked up then as they always will be. Evolutional advancement completely alienates life, and there isn't a thing in the world that can stop it. The bible gives no answers for man - only for the individual.

That is because you have not read it in its entirety. -Nor understood it. The savation of the individual and proper behavior of the individual on a mass scale IS good for man.

The truth is, the beauty of this universe is that all this trouble we are facing in the world today, and the worst of it is still to come, is because of our minds relentless atatchment to life, and our obsession with death.

Which the "life" can be defined as material Earthly circumstances and "death" can be defined as running from Christ and turning toward sin.

I hate spiders, I kill them all the time, but we both came from this Earth, which came from this universe, which came from whatever, so we are all on the same playing field. It's just that we're a lot more interesting. Evolution never stops, and just because we are closer to the pinnacle of the cycle than anything else, doesn't mean it took a magic week to create us.

You cannot scientifically prove evolution. This takes a BELIEF. IT is a religion.

Another thing that bothers me, is that I get a lot of that "I hope you find what you're looking for" line from Christians. I have found everything divine I will ever need to move through my life with an eased mind. All I am looking for in life is to be the best I can be, and hopefully help others.

Are you satisfied you are RIGHT by PROOF?

Eternity is a long time. I hope you have proven beyond all doubt that you are right. The consequences suck.

Christianity distorts nature. Science can distort nature.

Ummm....if both distort nature, you have proven your own point invalid.

There is no right and wrong. Only nature. And that's why we're here. We are not here to fight for the good against the evil like we are Luke Skywalker.

Prove the "no right and wrong" stance, then.

I love talking about this shit, and I obviously like arguing, so you're a good sport for sticking with it.

It is apparent you do. Try proving it instead of just talking about it.

 

[Modu$OperanDi]

JESUS CHRIST!!!

lol.

Your religion holds water... at the bottom of the ocean.

Science distorts nature as in changing it physically, not completely misrepsenting it and ignoring it.

I guess all of the different stages of galaxies I see through my telescope at night are just lies. The light is lieing to me. The galaxy isn't spiraling - it is stagnant. The Universe is expanding - FACTTT. Which is in itself - evolution.

You will always be able to counter what I say - THAT'S THE BEAUTY OF CHRISTIANITY. I will not exaqsperate myself talking with you. I cannot prove anything to YOU, and I wouldn't speak of proof - the one thing Christianity is based least upon.



What of those who have NO ACCESS to 'God's words'. I guess they just get a free pass cause they don't know any better, they never were given the opportunity to save themselves.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Modu$OperanDi
JESUS CHRIST!!!

Science distorts nature as in changing it physically, not completely misrepsenting it and ignoring it.

I think there are plenty of examples of the contrary.

I guess all of the different stages of galaxies I see through my telescope at night are just lies. The light is lieing to me. The galaxy isn't spiraling - it is stagnant. The Universe is expanding - FACTTT.

True. The Bible claims this as well.

Which is in itself - evolution.

Hardly, it is all in a state of flux from a point of origin and at the same time decaying, as all matter does.

Light is always in motion.

Evolution is currently used as an example of "From goo to you, by way of the zoo". -Explaining how we got here.

You will always be able to counter what I say - THAT'S THE BEAUTY OF CHRISTIANITY. I will not exaqsperate myself talking with you. I cannot prove anything to YOU, and I wouldn't speak of proof - the one thing Christianity is based least upon.

If the beauty of "Christianity" is that I can always counter you, how does that make you correct or the Bible less than the divine word of God as it claims?

That then proves it IS based in fact.

What of those who have NO ACCESS to 'God's words'. I guess they just get a free pass cause they don't know any better, they never were given the opportunity to save themselves.

Nope. Impossible. The Bible clearly states all will have heard before Christ's return. Hearing is not necessarily reading.

You too have heard, although you may not have read.

 

[musicman]

Modu$OperanDi:

Thank you for the kind words. This is fun, isn't it? I'd like to address two of your comments:

"Another thing that bothers me is that I get a lot of that *Ihope you find what you're looking for* line from Christians".


I do hope you find what you're looking for, and it's not a line. I wish you no ill whatsoever.

"Christianity distorts nature. Science can distort nature. There is no right or wrong. Only nature. And that's why we're here. We are not here to fight for the good against the evil like we are Luke Skywalker."

Well I guess we'll see, won't we? The Bible tells us about the last days' with good and evil locked in a titanic struggle. I see the two sides squaring off against each other right now. It's a fascinating time to be alive. So, remember this day, my friend, and remember this conversation.

 

[Bart]

All Christians are Catholics. Catholic means univerial chruch of the Christ. Many when they say "Catholic" mean a member of the Roman Chruch.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Bart
All Christians are Catholics. Catholic means univerial chruch of the Christ. Many when they say "Catholic" mean a member of the Roman Chruch.

When the pope and associating clergy consider "catholic" to mean THEIR affiliation exclusively, you are flat out wrong.

Definition or no, your idea is NOT the meaning by today's standard.

As such, all Christians are NOT catholic.