Debate Now Prove your case! Is Homosexuality genetic or a choice?

Now I this is what I'm about to do. I am about to bring up a study that was done to attempt to find the actual genetic cause. The findings and opinions in the links and references do not necessarily reflect my opinion on this subject and should not be construed as such.
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A study was done by Dean Hamer, a researcher at the National Cancer Institute, in 1993, which purportedly identified a region of the X Chromosome, Xq28 as a possible cause or precursor to homosexuality, this study pertained the the male side only:

Study On Gay Gene Challenged - Chicago Tribune

In 1995 however, Dean Hamer, was accused of scientific misconduct, and of selective reporting of findings by a junior researcher. In March of the previous year, a 38 year old post-doctoral fellow in the NCI's Laboratory of Biochemistry had earlier called Hamer's data into question. She was later dismissed from the laboratory and was later reinstated by the Office of Research Integrity.

The junior researcher brought the issue to the attention of National Institute of Health, (of which the NCI comprises) who then referred it to the Office of Research Integrity, which found in a preliminary inquiry sufficient evidence to launch an investigation via a panel of experts in the same field Hamer was part of. The results of the inquiry were never published.

Hamer's study was then challenged when between 1993 and 1998, George Ebers, a neurogeneticist from the University of Western Ontario, tried to replicate the experiment and failed. In 1998, another group of geneticists (Sanders, et al.) did so with the same result. In fact multiple studies as recently as 2010 which after using this method failed to successfully replicate Hamer's conclusion (Bailey & Pillard, 1991; Hamer, 1993; Hu et al, 1995; McGuire, 1995; Mcknight, 1997; Sanders et al. 1998; Bailey et al., 1999; Rice et al. in 1999; McKnight & Malcolm, 2000; Hershberger, 2001; Bearman & Brückner, 2002; Mustanski et al. 2005; Långström, et al 2010).

Hamer then conceded in the April 28th 1995 edition of the Salt Lake Tribune titled "Science of Desire Is Topic for ‘Gay Gene’ Finder" that he had basically misrepresented his findings. He stated that homosexuality is:

"culturally transmitted, not inherited" and that "there is not a single master gene that makes people gay." I don't think we will ever be able to predict who will be gay" he said.

Another study, using 409 pairs of brothers, was conducted in 2014, which attempted to expound on the Hamer study:

Cambridge Journals Online - Psychological Medicine - Abstract - Genome-wide scan demonstrates significant linkage for male sexual orientation

But as was the case in previous studies, it used an outmoded method of testing, called a "genetic linkage scan" or GWA (Genome Wide Association). However, scientists have noted that "the GWA approach can be problematic because the massive number of statistical tests performed presents an unprecedented potential for false-positive results." Such a statement tells me that some of these "gay gene" studies are flawed.

How to interpret a genome-wide association study. - PubMed - NCBI

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Hamer is just one study. I have read that a scientific study will carry with it the risk that it can be influenced by the biases those conducting the research.

My contention is this: There is no clear cut cause for homosexuality. I have spent the past few hours scouring over studies and research dealing with the "gay gene." What I learned is that it is neither a disease or an abnormality, since throughout recorded history there have been small populations of individuals exhibiting homosexual tendencies. It can be the result of abuse or subpar sexual ability or performance involving a heterosexual partner, spousal abuse, or other negative factors. Another thing is that there is no single gene responsible for homosexuality, and that from the studies I've read, that the nature of the genes and the nurturing environment play a co-role.

I am left with no definitive opinion on the causes of homosexuality and I am therefore unable to take a "side" in this debate.
 
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Now I this is what I'm about to do. I am about to bring up a study that was done to attempt to find the actual genetic cause. The findings and opinions in the links and references do not necessarily reflect my opinion on this subject and should not be construed as such.
--------------------------------

A study was done by Dean Hamer, a researcher at the National Cancer Institute, in 1993, which purportedly identified a region of the X Chromosome, Xq28 as a possible cause or precursor to homosexuality, this study pertained the the male side only:

Study On Gay Gene Challenged - Chicago Tribune

In 1995 however, Dean Hamer, was accused of scientific misconduct, and of selective reporting of findings by a junior researcher. In March of the previous year, a 38 year old post-doctoral fellow in the NCI's Laboratory of Biochemistry had earlier called Hamer's data into question. She was later dismissed from the laboratory and was later reinstated by the Office of Research Integrity.

The junior researcher brought the issue to the attention of National Institute of Health, (of which the NCI comprises) who then referred it to the Office of Research Integrity, which found in a preliminary inquiry sufficient evidence to launch an investigation via a panel of experts in the same field Hamer was part of. The results of the inquiry were never published.

Hamer's study was then challenged when between 1993 and 1998, George Ebers, a neurogeneticist from the University of Western Ontario, tried to replicate the experiment and failed. In 1998, another group of geneticists (Sanders, et al.) did so with the same result. In fact multiple studies as recently as 2010 which after using this method failed to successfully replicate Hamer's conclusion (Bailey & Pillard, 1991; Hamer, 1993; Hu et al, 1995; McGuire, 1995; Mcknight, 1997; Sanders et al. 1998; Bailey et al., 1999; Rice et al. in 1999; McKnight & Malcolm, 2000; Hershberger, 2001; Bearman & Brückner, 2002; Mustanski et al. 2005; Långström, et al 2010).

Hamer then conceded in the April 28th 1995 edition of the Salt Lake Tribune titled "Science of Desire Is Topic for ‘Gay Gene’ Finder" that he had basically misrepresented his findings. He stated that homosexuality is:

"culturally transmitted, not inherited" and that "there is not a single master gene that makes people gay." I don't think we will ever be able to predict who will be gay" he said.

-------------------------------

That's just one study. I have read that a scientific study will carry with it the risk that it can be influenced by the biases those conducting the research.

My contention is this: There is no clear cut cause for homosexuality. I have spent the past few hours scouring over studies and research dealing with the "gay gene." What I learned is that it is neither a disease or an abnormality, since throughout recorded history there have been small populations of individuals exhibiting homosexual tendencies. It can be the result of abuse or subpar sexual ability or performance involving a heterosexual partner, spousal abuse, or other negative factors. Another thing is that there is no single gene responsible for homosexuality, and that from the studies I've read, that the nature of the genes and the nurturing environment play a co-role.

I am left with no definitive opinion on the causes of homosexuality and I am therefore unable to take a "side" in this debate.
It's like wargames... the only way to win is not to play.
 
Now I this is what I'm about to do. I am about to bring up a study that was done to attempt to find the actual genetic cause. The findings and opinions in the links and references do not necessarily reflect my opinion on this subject and should not be construed as such.
--------------------------------

A study was done by Dean Hamer, a researcher at the National Cancer Institute, in 1993, which purportedly identified a region of the X Chromosome, Xq28 as a possible cause or precursor to homosexuality, this study pertained the the male side only:

Study On Gay Gene Challenged - Chicago Tribune

In 1995 however, Dean Hamer, was accused of scientific misconduct, and of selective reporting of findings by a junior researcher. In March of the previous year, a 38 year old post-doctoral fellow in the NCI's Laboratory of Biochemistry had earlier called Hamer's data into question. She was later dismissed from the laboratory and was later reinstated by the Office of Research Integrity.

The junior researcher brought the issue to the attention of National Institute of Health, (of which the NCI comprises) who then referred it to the Office of Research Integrity, which found in a preliminary inquiry sufficient evidence to launch an investigation via a panel of experts in the same field Hamer was part of. The results of the inquiry were never published.

Hamer's study was then challenged when between 1993 and 1998, George Ebers, a neurogeneticist from the University of Western Ontario, tried to replicate the experiment and failed. In 1998, another group of geneticists (Sanders, et al.) did so with the same result. In fact multiple studies as recently as 2010 which after using this method failed to successfully replicate Hamer's conclusion (Bailey & Pillard, 1991; Hamer, 1993; Hu et al, 1995; McGuire, 1995; Mcknight, 1997; Sanders et al. 1998; Bailey et al., 1999; Rice et al. in 1999; McKnight & Malcolm, 2000; Hershberger, 2001; Bearman & Brückner, 2002; Mustanski et al. 2005; Långström, et al 2010).

Hamer then conceded in the April 28th 1995 edition of the Salt Lake Tribune titled "Science of Desire Is Topic for ‘Gay Gene’ Finder" that he had basically misrepresented his findings. He stated that homosexuality is:

"culturally transmitted, not inherited" and that "there is not a single master gene that makes people gay." I don't think we will ever be able to predict who will be gay" he said.

Another study, using 409 pairs of brothers, was conducted in 2014, which attempted to expound on the Hamer study:

Cambridge Journals Online - Psychological Medicine - Abstract - Genome-wide scan demonstrates significant linkage for male sexual orientation

But as was the case in previous studies, it used an outmoded method of testing, called a "genetic linkage scan." or GWA (Genome Wide Association) However, scientists have noted that "the GWA approach can be problematic because the massive number of statistical tests performed presents an unprecedented potential for false-positive results." Such a statement tells me that some of these "gay gene" studies are flawed.

How to interpret a genome-wide association study. - PubMed - NCBI

-------------------------------

Hamer is just one study. I have read that a scientific study will carry with it the risk that it can be influenced by the biases those conducting the research.

My contention is this: There is no clear cut cause for homosexuality. I have spent the past few hours scouring over studies and research dealing with the "gay gene." What I learned is that it is neither a disease or an abnormality, since throughout recorded history there have been small populations of individuals exhibiting homosexual tendencies. It can be the result of abuse or subpar sexual ability or performance involving a heterosexual partner, spousal abuse, or other negative factors. Another thing is that there is no single gene responsible for homosexuality, and that from the studies I've read, that the nature of the genes and the nurturing environment play a co-role.

I am left with no definitive opinion on the causes of homosexuality and I am therefore unable to take a "side" in this debate.
There are many things that cause cancer. Likewise, there are likely many things that causes a person to be homosexual. And no, I am not saying that homosexuality is a cancer.
 
There are many things that cause cancer. Likewise, there are likely many things that causes a person to be homosexual.

That's what I keep reading... so the possibility exists that homosexuality is a choice as well as a genetic factor. It is a matter of which one overrides the other.
 
It's like wargames... the only way to win is not to play.

I have decided to play a neutral role in this discussion. But even after all of the digging and researching, I am no closer to a finite conclusion than I was three hours ago.
Pretty sure I nailed the argument back on post #45.

The origin of homosexuality is clearly based on human / animal desires for "sex, courtship, affection, pair bonding, or parenting."

Thus it's natural.. all of these things, sex, desire, courtship, affection, pair bonding, parenting... these are all genetic traits exhibited by all / most animals, humans included.

The only argument against that is the one I mentioned back on post #45... that being gay has been identified as taboo because supposedly it's un-natural. Yet... see my proof. It is natural. Thus the un-natural thing is to call it out as taboo and ban it. Sort of like saying women should not be naked... even though it's natural.
 
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There are many things that cause cancer. Likewise, there are likely many things that causes a person to be homosexual.

That's what I keep reading... so the possibility exists that homosexuality is a choice as well as a genetic factor. It is a matter of which one overrides the other.
The very question presumes there's a problem, that it's not natural. Thus because it's not natural why is it there, is it a genetic problem or a choice problem. Yet, as I've proven it's natural. Thus the question is "wrong" on premise. It's a valid question to ask but it's the same as asking did you stop beating your wife, yes or no? Both answers are incorrect because the premise of the question is wrong.
 
Let's be real here. Homosexuality is an anomaly. Heterosexuality, as biology dictates, is the norm.My proof? Your mother and father were heterosexuals. Gays call straights "breeders". Wow. What do gays actualy add to the gene pool?

Off topic for this thread.
 
If the Obomanation calls it a "LIFESTYLE CHOICE" who are WE to argue with the president?:badgrin::badgrin::badgrin::badgrin:
:badgrin:]

Also off topic.

Really people- its not that hard- I disagree with the OP but he started this thread as a debate and its really not that hard to address the topic.
 
There are many things that cause cancer. Likewise, there are likely many things that causes a person to be homosexual.

That's what I keep reading... so the possibility exists that homosexuality is a choice as well as a genetic factor. It is a matter of which one overrides the other.
The very question presumes there's a problem, that it's not natural. Thus because it's not natural why is it there, is it a genetic problem or a choice problem. Yet, as I've proven it's natural. Thus the question is "wrong" on premise. It's a valid question to ask but it's the same as asking did you stop beating your wife, yes or no? Both answers are incorrect because the premise of the question is wrong.
No, the very question does not in and of its self presume there's a problem. However, you may presume it implies a problem due to the historical stimatism of homosexuality.
 
Gays have always had the same rights as anyone else, period. But since they can't reproduce, the right to get married is shallow and superficial.
 
Gays have always had the same rights as anyone else, period. But since they can't reproduce, the right to get married is shallow and superficial.
Why can't gays reproduce. Please provide your evidence that gay women can't get pregnant and that gay men can't get women pregnant.
 
If the Obomanation calls it a "LIFESTYLE CHOICE" who are WE to argue with the president?:badgrin::badgrin::badgrin::badgrin:
:badgrin:]

Also off topic.

Really people- its not that hard- I disagree with the OP but he started this thread as a debate and its really not that hard to address the topic.

God, YOU are truly an :ahole-1:... when you can't refute what's pointed out ABOUT THE TOPIC!

And that is both off topic and breaking the rules of the forum for this thread.

Good job!
 
The very question presumes there's a problem, that it's not natural.

It isn't, in the sense it is a flaw in the human genome. Natural as it exists in the genome yes, but unnatural in the sense that it is not a normal occurrence in the species. So no, it isn't natural.

Yet, as I've proven it's natural.

Sigh, I said I was going to stay neutral, but as with all attempts at neutrality, one winds up taking a side. Just because your argument went unchallenged for a period of time does not constitute proof of anything. It is an argument of false declaration at this juncture.

Thus, to your question the origin of homosexuality is clearly based on human / animal desires for "sex, courtship, affection, pair bonding, or parenting." Yeah that last one sounds odd, note: it was not my list.

In fact, the assertion "animals do it too" is deceptive. Animals act on instinct, not emotion. Therefore they have no perception of homosexuality as humans do. We are in fact, as you said, intelligent and unique. I find the idea of attributing human behavior to animals to be a flawed line of reasoning, as such:

"Although homosexual behavior is very common in the animal world (notice how he stresses behavior), it seems to be very uncommon that individual animals have a long-lasting predisposition to engage in such behavior to the exclusion of heterosexual activities. Thus, a homosexual orientation, if one can speak of such thing in animals, seems to be a rarity."

-LeVay, Simon (1996). Queer Science: The Use and Abuse of Research into Homosexuality. Cambridge, Massachusetts: MIT Press. p. 207.

"Properly speaking, homosexuality does not exist among animals.... For reasons of survival, the reproductive instinct among animals is always directed towards an individual of the opposite sex. Therefore, an animal can never be homosexual as such. Nevertheless, the interaction of other instincts (particularly dominance) can result in behavior that appears to be homosexual. Such behavior cannot be equated with an animal homosexuality. All it means is that animal sexual behavior encompasses aspects beyond that of reproduction."

Dr. Antonio Pardo, "Aspectos medicos de la homosexualidad," Nuestro Tiempo, Jul.-Aug. 1995, pp. 82-89.

Animal species akin to mammalia (excluding humans, which are intelligent mammals) have an overwhelming instinct to propagate their species. They don't have enough intelligence to override that instinct. We do. There's human nature and animal nature. Neither can be equated with the other.

In nature "there is documented evidence of homosexual behavior of one or more of the following kinds: sex, courtship, affection, pair bonding, or parenting." (Bruce Bagemihl's 1999 book Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity. )

Speaking of Bruce Bagemihl: in that very same book, he made this assertion on page 262:

"Ultimately, the synthesis of scientific views represented by Biological Exuberance brings us full circle--back to the way of looking at the world that is in accordance with some of the most ancient indigenous conceptions of animal (and human) sexual and gender variability. This perspective dissolves binary oppositions....Biological Exuberance is...a worldview that is at once primordial and futuristic, in which gender is kaleidoscopic, sexualities are multiple, and the categories of male and female are fluid and transmutable."

Ibid, p. 262

That has no scientific backing whilst resorting to a supernatural, spiritual basis to anchor his assertion. He hinges this part of his argument solely on the mythical conceptions of ancient Indian and aboriginal peoples. I take his argument with a grain of salt, and rightly so. It is an androgynous myth. Mythology is not science.

Then, he shows his dissatisfaction with empirical science and suggests that the aboriginal cultural perspective is superior. That immediately discredits any perspective he has on the subject:

"Western science has a lot to learn from aboriginal cultures about systems of gender and sexuality..."

Ibid, p. 5

Once again, we are discussing empirical science, not mythology.

Another instance of this conflationary argument comes here:

"To Western science, homosexuality (both animal and human) is an anomaly, an unexpected behavior that above all requires some sort of "explanation" or "cause" or "rationale." In contrast, to many indigenous cultures around the world, homosexuality and transgender are a routine and expected occurrence in both the human and animal worlds.."

Ibid, p. 215

"Most Native American tribes formally recognize--and honor--human homosexuality and transgender in the role of the 'two-spirit' person (sometimes formerly known as berdache). The 'two-spirit' is a sacred man or woman who mixes gender categories by wearing clothes of opposite or both sexes .... And often engaging in same -sex relations. ... In many Native American cultures, certain animals are also symbolically associated with two-spiritedness, often in the form of creation myths and origin legends relating to the first or "supernatural" two-spirit(s)....A Zuni creation story relates how the first two spirits--creatures that were neither male nor female, yet both at the same time--were the twelve offspring of a mythical brother-sister pair. Some of these creatures were human, but one was a bat and another an old buck Deer."

Ibid, p. 216

He is using the religious beliefs of aboriginal cultures to define homosexual behavior in animals, in another attempt to equate it with human behavior. That is not a scientific argument. I am told by many people that in some cases science and religious belief are incompatible, in this case I agree. With all due respect, RKM, this source is dubious at best.

I will contend that human behavior is completely dissimilar to the instinctual behavior of other mammals. I am also calling you on the grounds you based your argument on an unreliable source.
 
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Gays have always had the same rights as anyone else, period. But since they can't reproduce, the right to get married is shallow and superficial.
Why can't gays reproduce. Please provide your evidence that gay women can't get pregnant and that gay men can't get women pregnant.

Because without surrogacy or IVF, they would simply become extinct due to the lack of reproductive capability. It's written in all of nature.
 
Homosexuals don't breed, hence genetic homosexuality is impossible.
Straight couples have gay kids. Like left handers you would think the gay gene would eventually die out but it doesnt. Maybe like with evolution its a genetic mutation.

Super gays you can tell were born that way. And most people are straight. But there are a lot of people who go both ways. For them its a choice. But not for heteros or super gays.
 
I will say it again, pedophiles or psychopaths are just as well founded in biology as homosexuality. I don't accept any of them as alternative though. But that is just me. A normal person, whatever that is.
 
Homosexuals don't breed, hence genetic homosexuality is impossible.
Straight couples have gay kids. Like left handers you would think the gay gene would eventually die out but it doesnt. Maybe like with evolution its a genetic mutation.

Super gays you can tell were born that way. And most people are straight. But there are a lot of people who go both ways. For them its a choice. But not for heteros or super gays.
Hell, my brother in law is a transsexual now. Like House said, people LIE. Bigtime.
 

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