Debate Now Prove your case! Is Homosexuality genetic or a choice?

[Manonthestreet]

See you have no answer for link posted........game set match

 

[Manonthestreet]

Recruitment Middle-school students hear from homosexual high schoolers

 

[Manonthestreet]

 

[Mertex]

1. When did the OP choose to be heterosexual?
2. Can the OP tell us in his own words how he felt attraction to both males and females and made the choice as to which gender he would engage in sexual relations?
3. What factors influenced the OP's choice?
4. How old was the OP when he made this choice?
5. Did the OP seek the advice and counsel of anyone when it came to making his personal choice?

None of the above is be construed as a "persona attack" on the OP. They are intended as a purely fact finding exercise. To prove that there is no malice intended towards the OP I will provide my own answers to the questions above.

1. I never made the "choice" to be heterosexual.
2. I was never attracted to males, only females.
3. I am not aware of any factors since I never made a choice.
4. Around puberty.
5. I asked no one and no one gave me any counsel, I was just naturally attracted to females.

The OP is demanding that I provide "proof" that I made a "choice" that I never made.

So isn't the onus on the OP to first provide proof that he made a "choice" first?

Isn't that the whole basis of the OP that there has to be a "choice" of some kind? So where is the OP's case that homosexuality is a "choice"?

Unless the OP can provide scientific substantiation that he made a "choice" there is nothing to discuss here.

Why would anyone choose to be part of a group that is denigrated, maligned, ostracized, rebuked, etc.? That alone should be proof enough that no one is that much of a martyr as to choose homosexuality. The fact that even families where the parents are extremely against homosexuality and preach against it, have had offspring that claim to be homosexual is also "proof" that it is not a choice.

Agreed that some may not truly be homosexual and will do it just for experimentation or perversion, but those that are truly homosexual did not choose it. There are also some homosexuals that have tried heterosexual relationships and they don't work out the majority of the time.

I did not choose to be heterosexual, I just am. I could never be attracted to another female and I don't understand a woman being attracted to another woman, so why would I think that some of us are given a choice while others are not? That doesn't even make sense.

 

[Mertex]

Your post is nothing but smoke and mirrors. Gays don't breed, homosexuality is biologically broken, it's a dead end. I can respect gays as human beings and all that, but, this hocus pocus of marriage and equal rights, that is going a bit too far.

Can you provide a link that substantiates your claim that gays don't breed? Gay men produce sperm, and that sperm is not any different from heterosexual sperm, in that it can impregnate. Lesbians are also very capable of getting pregnant. So unless you are able to provide some evidence/links to substantiate such a baseless statement, I'm going to guess that it was meaningless.

 

[Ernie S.]

Homosexuals don't breed, hence genetic homosexuality is impossible.

This fails as a post hoc fallacy.

Really? Can 2 men make a baby? How often do gay guys get it on with lesbians? If homosexuality was genetic, it would have been bred out of us thousands of years ago.

 

[Mertex]

Homosexuals don't breed, hence genetic homosexuality is impossible.

This fails as a post hoc fallacy.

Really? Can 2 men make a baby? How often do gay guys get it on with lesbians? If homosexuality was genetic, it would have been bred out of us thousands of years ago.

Where did anyone say that two men can make a baby? Are you allowed to insert your own imagination into what someone says? Gay men produce sperm....can you prove that their sperm doesn't impregnate? Didn't think so.

 

[Ernie S.]

It doesn't because gay men don't screw women. Artificial insemination is relatively new. There would have been no gays left to breed more

 

[RKMBrown]

It doesn't because gay men don't screw women. Artificial insemination is relatively new. There would have been no gays left to breed more

Incorrect. Gay men do screw women.

 

[Mertex]

It doesn't because gay men don't screw women.

Do you have a link to back you up? I have known of homosexual men that have married heterosexual women and had children only for the woman to find out later and divorce them. You are so out of touch.

Artificial insemination is relatively new. There would have been no gays left to breed more

Just post some links.....we don't need baseless opinions.

 

[Mertex]

Cases of gay men marrying straight women.

I m a gay man married to a woman... am I doing the right thing pretending to be straight - relationship advice

I married a gay man - Health - Behavior NBC News

Gay Husband Married To Straight Wife I Am Married But Gay Story Experience

Gay Husband Signs Marriage

Male sexual orientation influenced by genes study shows Science The Guardian


Wiki:
Marriage between homosexual and heterosexual partners[edit]

A study on 26 gay men (which also included research on bisexual men) found that internalized homophobia is a factor that leads such men into mixed-orientation marriages.[5] Marriages between a homosexual man and a heterosexual woman have a high probability of failure.[6]

Joe Kort, a counselor specializing in mixed-orientation marriages, said "These men genuinely love their wives. They fall in love with their wives, they have children, they're on a chemical, romantic high, and then after about seven years, the high falls away and their gay identity starts emerging. They don't mean any harm."[7] While many hide their orientation from their spouse, others tell their spouse before marriage.[4] Research indicates that some people identify as exclusively heterosexual in behavior and fantasies before marriage, but grow toward a more homosexual orientation during marriage.[8]

One study states that heterosexual women in mixed-orientation marriages may be attracted to homosexual men and proceed to marry them.[6] Kort said that "straight individuals rarely marry gay people accidentally."[9] He theorized that some heterosexual women find homosexual men less judgmental and more flexible, while others unconsciously seek partnerships that are not sexually passionate.

 

[TemplarKormac]

1. Not genetic or not genetic alone, because studies on identical twins
do not show 100% match where the twins are the same orientation.
I think the chances are slightly over 50% of being the same orientation,
something like 53% to 47%. Since this is not random either, but there
is a slightly greater chance of matching orientations than not matching,
it could be argued that genetics may predict a "tendency" but that other factors are involved.

Source: "Homosexuality: Can it be healed" by Francis MacNutt

2. In some cases homosexuality may be able to change by choice to undergo spiritual therapy. If you look at real cases of people who changed, this can either be interpreted as "changing orientation as a choice,"
or as "going back to one's original orientation that is natural and not a choice"
(where the other conditions were not natural but were not chosen either).

This is based on faith in people's reports and interpretations.

Regardless if different people look at these changes as natural or unnatural,
the fact is that there are REPORTS of both people changing and people saying they could not change.

Examples: People Can Change - An alternative healing response to unwanted homosexual desires.
De Blasio s wife Chirlane McCray talks about lesbian past - NY Daily News
How To Defeat Homosexual Activists 101 A Real Education Page 4 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

3. NOTE: Because this is faith-based, and cannot be proven either way without more scientific research, where I find people can agree to avoid arguing is that these changes or conditions are SPIRITUALLY determined.

This is also completely faith-based, but at least it covers all the cases and interpretations,
and allows for explanations either way. People still report either changing or not changing.
There is no need to argue, if we can agree it is a spiritual process that determines if people change or not.

My case is that there is no scientific reason why homosexuality need be either genetic or a choice

Among the potential options:

• Genetic
• Epigenetic
• Environmental(pre-natal)
• Environmental(post-natal)
• Conditioned(such as family environment or perhaps abuse)
  
• 'Choice'- this option I put down as a wobbler- since homosexuality is by definition 'sexual attraction to a person of the same gender- I am doubtful anyone actually ever chooses who they are attracted to- but I do believe that people have made conscious choices to live their lives as heterosexuals or homosexuals

In addition- I also believe that humans do not necessarily fall easily in A or B- is the boy who fools around with his 14 year old best male friend once, but figures out he prefers girl a homosexual or a heterosexual?

And finally- I don't think the reason why is as important as treating people fairly. Anymore than I need to know why someone is a Christian or why someone is Jew.

1. Not genetic or not genetic alone, because studies on identical twins
do not show 100% match where the twins are the same orientation.
.

This is actually a very good point- I have seen people from both sides of the situation point to twin studies- IF it was purely genetic- then the match should be closer to 100%- IF there was no genetic component, then the match should be exactly the same as non related parties- but instead twin studies show something in the middle.

Epigenetics could possible account for that- or possibly a genetic component that is only activated by a distinct environmental or social exposure.

I particularly liked this exchange, since I hold the view that homosexuality is epigenetic in nature and that could also be a choice. But given my knowledge of Mendelian genetics, the fact that there exists in the human species h.sapiens, a dominant sexual trait (heterosexuality) and a recessive sexual trait (homosexuality), suggests that it might be a genetic flaw in the human genome. By nature the species h.sapiens evolved to reproduce via one male and one female. That also suggests that it is a flaw, since two members of the same gender h.sapiens can't reproduce except through artificial means. Evolution would suggest that this flaw would be eventually excised from the human genomic structure altogether, because without these artificial means, the homosexual population would eventually die out.

All in all, I believe that this is a genetic flaw that can be fixed without selectively aborting children who display this abnormality, if not, then such compulsion can be discouraged through environmental stimuli. Genes can be reprogrammed. So can the mind.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Homosexuals don't breed, hence genetic homosexuality is impossible.

This fails as a post hoc fallacy.

Really? Can 2 men make a baby? How often do gay guys get it on with lesbians? If homosexuality was genetic, it would have been bred out of us thousands of years ago.

Yes, really.

Gay men have children, gay women have children – it's actually quite common.

Consequently your argument fails as a fallacy, as the genetic propensity for homosexuality is passed from one generation to another.

 

[TemplarKormac]

It doesn't because gay men don't screw women. Artificial insemination is relatively new. There would have been no gays left to breed more

Incorrect. Gay men do screw women.

Then one would question that homosexuality was genetic in nature given that statement; or the fact that the man was in fact "gay" as is defined by the LGBT community. If the sexual desire (or compulsion) to mate with the opposite gender still exists in the gay man, he is in fact not gay, but a heterosexual as he was designed to be--in theory.

 

[Manonthestreet]

1. When did the OP choose to be heterosexual?
2. Can the OP tell us in his own words how he felt attraction to both males and females and made the choice as to which gender he would engage in sexual relations?
3. What factors influenced the OP's choice?
4. How old was the OP when he made this choice?
5. Did the OP seek the advice and counsel of anyone when it came to making his personal choice?

None of the above is be construed as a "persona attack" on the OP. They are intended as a purely fact finding exercise. To prove that there is no malice intended towards the OP I will provide my own answers to the questions above.

1. I never made the "choice" to be heterosexual.
2. I was never attracted to males, only females.
3. I am not aware of any factors since I never made a choice.
4. Around puberty.
5. I asked no one and no one gave me any counsel, I was just naturally attracted to females.

The OP is demanding that I provide "proof" that I made a "choice" that I never made.

So isn't the onus on the OP to first provide proof that he made a "choice" first?

Isn't that the whole basis of the OP that there has to be a "choice" of some kind? So where is the OP's case that homosexuality is a "choice"?

Unless the OP can provide scientific substantiation that he made a "choice" there is nothing to discuss here.

Why would anyone choose to be part of a group that is denigrated, maligned, ostracized, rebuked, etc.? That alone should be proof enough that no one is that much of a martyr as to choose homosexuality. The fact that even families where the parents are extremely against homosexuality and preach against it, have had offspring that claim to be homosexual is also "proof" that it is not a choice.

Agreed that some may not truly be homosexual and will do it just for experimentation or perversion, but those that are truly homosexual did not choose it. There are also some homosexuals that have tried heterosexual relationships and they don't work out the majority of the time.

I did not choose to be heterosexual, I just am. I could never be attracted to another female and I don't understand a woman being attracted to another woman, so why would I think that some of us are given a choice while others are not? That doesn't even make sense.

people make bad choice all the time..........

 

[Derideo_Te]

Homosexuals don't breed, hence genetic homosexuality is impossible.

This fails as a post hoc fallacy.

Really? Can 2 men make a baby? How often do gay guys get it on with lesbians? If homosexuality was genetic, it would have been bred out of us thousands of years ago.

Why do heterosexual couples keep on having children who are gay?

Why do gay same sex parents have children who are heterosexual?

 

[Derideo_Te]

It doesn't because gay men don't screw women. Artificial insemination is relatively new. There would have been no gays left to breed more

So you have never heard of Governor Jim McGreevey?

 

[Mertex]

1. When did the OP choose to be heterosexual?
2. Can the OP tell us in his own words how he felt attraction to both males and females and made the choice as to which gender he would engage in sexual relations?
3. What factors influenced the OP's choice?
4. How old was the OP when he made this choice?
5. Did the OP seek the advice and counsel of anyone when it came to making his personal choice?

None of the above is be construed as a "persona attack" on the OP. They are intended as a purely fact finding exercise. To prove that there is no malice intended towards the OP I will provide my own answers to the questions above.

1. I never made the "choice" to be heterosexual.
2. I was never attracted to males, only females.
3. I am not aware of any factors since I never made a choice.
4. Around puberty.
5. I asked no one and no one gave me any counsel, I was just naturally attracted to females.

The OP is demanding that I provide "proof" that I made a "choice" that I never made.

So isn't the onus on the OP to first provide proof that he made a "choice" first?

Isn't that the whole basis of the OP that there has to be a "choice" of some kind? So where is the OP's case that homosexuality is a "choice"?

Unless the OP can provide scientific substantiation that he made a "choice" there is nothing to discuss here.

Why would anyone choose to be part of a group that is denigrated, maligned, ostracized, rebuked, etc.? That alone should be proof enough that no one is that much of a martyr as to choose homosexuality. The fact that even families where the parents are extremely against homosexuality and preach against it, have had offspring that claim to be homosexual is also "proof" that it is not a choice.

Agreed that some may not truly be homosexual and will do it just for experimentation or perversion, but those that are truly homosexual did not choose it. There are also some homosexuals that have tried heterosexual relationships and they don't work out the majority of the time.

I did not choose to be heterosexual, I just am. I could never be attracted to another female and I don't understand a woman being attracted to another woman, so why would I think that some of us are given a choice while others are not? That doesn't even make sense.

people make bad choice all the time..........

Was your choice to be heterosexual a bad choice?

 

[Manonthestreet]

The usual bs.....someone answer why there is a guide for people questioning their sexuality........ I mean if its not a choice there should be no confusion.........

 

[Mertex]

The usual bs.....someone answer why there is a guide for people questioning their sexuality........ I mean if its not a choice there should be no confusion.........

The confusion started when some didn't want to accept it as "normal" for some. Homosexuals are definitely not confused about how they feel, it's the uninformed that are confused and wanting homosexuals to subject to something they are not.