Pro-Christian Legislation vs. Anti-Christian Legislation

[tigerbob]

I have skimmed your OP CMM and for a start of this discussion let me ask you how you define Pro-Christian legislation?

I would not define laws against abortion, euthanasia or homosexuality as Pro-Christian. I would agree that the Christian community overwhelmingly supports these bills, but they would not be "Pro-Christian" as I would define them. Pro-Christian legislation would be the promotion of Christian ideals or churches, requiring tax dollars be given to Christian churches or the likes.

Just because legislation is backed by Christians does not make it "Pro-Christian" legislation in my point of view.

Immie

Though I do not disagree that simply because Christians support something does not mean it is pro-Christian - i.e. SEC football - I would argue that opposition to abortion, euthanasia and homosexuality are Christian ideals.

Clearly not for all of us Christians.

 

[Toro]

I have skimmed your OP CMM and for a start of this discussion let me ask you how you define Pro-Christian legislation?

I would not define laws against abortion, euthanasia or homosexuality as Pro-Christian. I would agree that the Christian community overwhelmingly supports these bills, but they would not be "Pro-Christian" as I would define them. Pro-Christian legislation would be the promotion of Christian ideals or churches, requiring tax dollars be given to Christian churches or the likes.

Just because legislation is backed by Christians does not make it "Pro-Christian" legislation in my point of view.

Immie

Though I do not disagree that simply because Christians support something does not mean it is pro-Christian - i.e. SEC football - I would argue that opposition to abortion, euthanasia and homosexuality are Christian ideals.

Clearly not for all of us Christians.

Nor for me, and I am a Christian.

 

[del]

I have skimmed your OP CMM and for a start of this discussion let me ask you how you define Pro-Christian legislation?

I would not define laws against abortion, euthanasia or homosexuality as Pro-Christian. I would agree that the Christian community overwhelmingly supports these bills, but they would not be "Pro-Christian" as I would define them. Pro-Christian legislation would be the promotion of Christian ideals or churches, requiring tax dollars be given to Christian churches or the likes.

Just because legislation is backed by Christians does not make it "Pro-Christian" legislation in my point of view.

Immie

Though I do not disagree that simply because Christians support something does not mean it is pro-Christian - i.e. SEC football - I would argue that opposition to abortion, euthanasia and homosexuality are Christian ideals.

but they are not solely christian ideals. i'm sure there are people of other faiths and people who have no faith at all who oppose at least one of the above.

 

[tigerbob]

I have skimmed your OP CMM and for a start of this discussion let me ask you how you define Pro-Christian legislation?

I would not define laws against abortion, euthanasia or homosexuality as Pro-Christian. I would agree that the Christian community overwhelmingly supports these bills, but they would not be "Pro-Christian" as I would define them. Pro-Christian legislation would be the promotion of Christian ideals or churches, requiring tax dollars be given to Christian churches or the likes.

Just because legislation is backed by Christians does not make it "Pro-Christian" legislation in my point of view.

Immie

Though I do not disagree that simply because Christians support something does not mean it is pro-Christian - i.e. SEC football - I would argue that opposition to abortion, euthanasia and homosexuality are Christian ideals.

but they are not solely christian ideals. i'm sure there are people of other faiths and people who have no faith at all who oppose at least one of the above.

Fair point.

 

[Immanuel]

I have skimmed your OP CMM and for a start of this discussion let me ask you how you define Pro-Christian legislation?

I would not define laws against abortion, euthanasia or homosexuality as Pro-Christian. I would agree that the Christian community overwhelmingly supports these bills, but they would not be "Pro-Christian" as I would define them. Pro-Christian legislation would be the promotion of Christian ideals or churches, requiring tax dollars be given to Christian churches or the likes.

Just because legislation is backed by Christians does not make it "Pro-Christian" legislation in my point of view.

Immie

Though I do not disagree that simply because Christians support something does not mean it is pro-Christian - i.e. SEC football - I would argue that opposition to abortion, euthanasia and homosexuality are Christian ideals.

Sure, they are Christian ideals. Many Christians are opposed to abortion, euthanasia and homosexuality, but by my understanding, legislation against these issues would not be "Pro-Christian" legislation. The fact that the vast majority of supporters might be Christian (even if most Americans didn't claim to be Christian) does not make the legislation "Pro-Christian".

The way I would understand "Pro-Christian" legislation would be legislation that promoted Christianity as the religion of America or legislation that made, say Southern Baptist, the official religion of America. By the way, I for one would be adamantly opposed to any such legislation. I do not want the government telling me what God I have to worship and how to worship that God even if they chose my own denomination.

Immie

 

[Toro]

I have skimmed your OP CMM and for a start of this discussion let me ask you how you define Pro-Christian legislation?

I would not define laws against abortion, euthanasia or homosexuality as Pro-Christian. I would agree that the Christian community overwhelmingly supports these bills, but they would not be "Pro-Christian" as I would define them. Pro-Christian legislation would be the promotion of Christian ideals or churches, requiring tax dollars be given to Christian churches or the likes.

Just because legislation is backed by Christians does not make it "Pro-Christian" legislation in my point of view.

Immie

Though I do not disagree that simply because Christians support something does not mean it is pro-Christian - i.e. SEC football - I would argue that opposition to abortion, euthanasia and homosexuality are Christian ideals.

Sure, they are Christian ideals. Many Christians are opposed to abortion, euthanasia and homosexuality, but by my understanding, legislation against these issues would not be "Pro-Christian" legislation. The fact that the vast majority of supporters might be Christian (even if most Americans didn't claim to be Christian) does not make the legislation "Pro-Christian".

The way I would understand "Pro-Christian" legislation would be legislation that promoted Christianity as the religion of America or legislation that made, say Southern Baptist, the official religion of America. By the way, I for one would be adamantly opposed to any such legislation. I do not want the government telling me what God I have to worship and how to worship that God even if they chose my own denomination.

Immie

I cannot think of any religion that is promoted legally by the government since that is explicitly prohibited by the Constitution.

Rather, I view it as issues strongly supported by Christian Churches, those who donate money to support or oppose, those which are actively discussed at the pulpit, those whose leaders actively support or oppose, and those which the churches organize to support or oppose. I would define as pro-Christian policies as those the Churches actively and officially support rather than Christians supporting those policies outside of church involvement.

 

[Toro]

but they are not solely christian ideals. i'm sure there are people of other faiths and people who have no faith at all who oppose at least one of the above.

I would agree. But what idea is solely the province of one group?

For example, free trade is opposed by the isolationist Right of the Republican party and by the protectionist Left of the Democratic Party. To isolationists and protectionists, opposition to free trade is both actively promoted and a core tenant of their belief systems, even though they disagree on most things.

Opposition to homosexuality, abortion and euthanasia are core tenants of Christian faith. That makes them Christian ideals.

 

[del]

but they are not solely christian ideals. i'm sure there are people of other faiths and people who have no faith at all who oppose at least one of the above.

I would agree. But what idea is solely the province of one group?

For example, free trade is opposed by the isolationist Right of the Republican party and by the protectionist Left of the Democratic Party. To isolationists and protectionists, opposition to free trade is both actively promoted and a core tenant of their belief systems, even though they disagree on most things.

Opposition to homosexuality, abortion and euthanasia are core tenants of Christian faith. That makes them Christian ideals.

i'm not saying they are not, i just don't agree that they are uniquely christian.
reasonable people can disagree about this; i'll see if i can find one for you.

 

[Immanuel]

I cannot think of any religion that is promoted legally by the government since that is explicitly prohibited by the Constitution.

Rather, I view it as issues strongly supported by Christian Churches, those who donate money to support or oppose, those which are actively discussed at the pulpit, those whose leaders actively support or oppose, and those which the churches organize to support or oppose. I would define as pro-Christian policies as those the Churches actively and officially support rather than Christians supporting those policies outside of church involvement.

Fair enough we simply have slightly different ideas on what would constitute Pro-Christian.

For the record, I didn't say there was any relgion promoted by the government, but rather that is what I would view as Pro-Christian.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

but they are not solely christian ideals. i'm sure there are people of other faiths and people who have no faith at all who oppose at least one of the above.

I would agree. But what idea is solely the province of one group?

For example, free trade is opposed by the isolationist Right of the Republican party and by the protectionist Left of the Democratic Party. To isolationists and protectionists, opposition to free trade is both actively promoted and a core tenant of their belief systems, even though they disagree on most things.

Opposition to homosexuality, abortion and euthanasia are core tenants of Christian faith. That makes them Christian ideals.

i'm not saying they are not, i just don't agree that they are uniquely christian.
reasonable people can disagree about this; i'll see if i can find one for you.

A reasonable person? Good luck!

Immie

 

[Newby]

CMM - you PMd me and asked for my views. It's an awful lot to respond to and I'm short on time today. However, let me summarize as follows.

I'm British. I have never made a big study of the constitution and base my views purely on what I consider is right and wrong. In deciding what I believe is right, I lean on my faith and the central tenet of 'Do unto others'.

I believe that no religion should have undue influence on politics. That does not mean that no religion should have a voice, but does mean that the views of those who have faith should not be imposed upon those who do not. As such, for example, I am pro choice. That said, I believe that life begins at the first heartbeat. Abortion after that point troubles me deeply, but I understand that my view will likely be very different to others.

I have no problem with gay marriage, so long as that does not mean that churches are forced to carry out same sex marriage ceremonies. I think gays should have exactly the same rights under law as everyone else. It's not my place to judge them.

I believe that religious pressure groups who represent the rights of the unborn have every right to do so. I believe that any activists who do something illegal to advance their agenda should go to prison.

I feel that there is a place for the teachings of Christ in a civilized society. Indeed, I believe that the teachings of Christ have had a hugely positive influence on the development of 'western' society. That said, I also believe that many Christians do things that Christ would have considered appalling, both in the past (i.e. the Inquisition, the Crusades) and in the present (threatening or even harming doctors). I believe that on judgement day I will get more credit for 'loving my neighbor' than I will for having lived my life dogmatically.

I think there is a lot of good in the Bible, but that (a) it was written as a political document which was of its time (b) there is a huge amount in it that is contradictory or open to interpretation. Some people choose to ignore the new testament and beat their enemies about the head with the old testament. To me, this reveals nothing about Christianity, and everything about the character of the individual.
I believe that America is not a Christian country, but it is overwhelmingly a country of Christians.

Sorry I could deal with the specific issues but, you know what? So long as people are able to discuss these things reasonably I thnk we are headed in the right direction.

Churchill once said "So long as you are kind, and generous, and true, you cannot harm the world, or even seriously distress her". That, in a nutshell, is my position.

Good post. He's discussed this topic numerous times under other 'religious' threads that he's started. He's very elitist when it comes to anyone with any religious beliefs (he has none from what he says), and judges others based on that fact more than any Christian I know.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Though I do not disagree that simply because Christians support something does not mean it is pro-Christian - i.e. SEC football - I would argue that opposition to abortion, euthanasia and homosexuality are Christian ideals.

but they are not solely christian ideals. i'm sure there are people of other faiths and people who have no faith at all who oppose at least one of the above.

Fair point.

I'm sure there are opinions that go both ways for individuals of every group, but I would say, generally speaking, that overwhelmingly:

Christians are pro-life, against euthanasia, and against same-sex marrage.

The same for Jews, and Muslims. I don't know enough about Hinduism or other religions to have an idea what the adherents for those religions think about those three topics or much else.

Agnostics, atheists, pagans, Wiccans, Buddhists, etc. are pro-choice, support humane euthanasia for the terminally ill who are suffering or living at a very low quality of life, and support same-sex marriages (aka equal rights for homosexuals).

Were it not that Christians make up the majority of the population in the US, abortion, euthanasia, and same-sex marriages would all be legal. The US is not a Christian nation, but is a nation made up overwelmingly of Christians. But, since not everyone is a Christian, we, who do not believe, should not be made to live by Christian ideals.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

To leave room for doubt is the denial of one's faith. How can one say, "I believe God completely... but maybe"?Immie

Well, but do you believe the Bible is the perfect transcription of God's Word? There's where your doubt could be appropriate.

 

[Immanuel]

To leave room for doubt is the denial of one's faith. How can one say, "I believe God completely... but maybe"?

Immie

Well, but do you believe the Bible is the perfect transcription of God's Word? There's where your doubt could be appropriate.

Well, you must have caught on to something I said in another thread.

I do believe that man can misinterpret what God has said, and in that case I suppose there could be some room for doubt.

Immie

 

[del]

but they are not solely christian ideals. i'm sure there are people of other faiths and people who have no faith at all who oppose at least one of the above.

Fair point.

I'm sure there are opinions that go both ways for individuals of every group, but I would say, generally speaking, that overwhelmingly:

Christians are pro-life, against euthanasia, and against same-sex marrage.

The same for Jews, and Muslims. I don't know enough about Hinduism or other religions to have an idea what the adherents for those religions think about those three topics or much else.

Agnostics, atheists, pagans, Wiccans, Buddhists, etc. are pro-choice, support humane euthanasia for the terminally ill who are suffering or living at a very low quality of life, and support same-sex marriages (aka equal rights for homosexuals).

Were it not that Christians make up the majority of the population in the US, abortion, euthanasia, and same-sex marriages would all be legal. The US is not a Christian nation, but is a nation made up overwelmingly of Christians. But, since not everyone is a Christian, we, who do not believe, should not be made to live by Christian ideals.

abortion is legal. gay marriage is legal where i live. i very much doubt that euthenasia will ever be legal.

 

[AllieBaba]

Euthanasia is legal in Oregon.

 

[AllieBaba]

The Bible is perfect because it is by nature holy. God told us it was perfect, he imbued it with the Holy Spirit...which dwells within the bible just as he indwells in faithful humans.

People make mistakes, but God is master of the plan, and he told us the Word is inviolate. So whatever mistakes men make in interpretation, the bible itself is still inviolate. Anything in there was meant to be in there.

 

[Toro]

The Bible is perfect because it is by nature holy.

What about the stoning part?

 

[Evangelical]

Wait a second, why should we discuss with a person who cannot find an anti-religious interest group or political group? I can name a couple. These two have done a LOT of damage to Christian America.

Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

ACLU.

 

[Evangelical]

The Bible is perfect because it is by nature holy.

What about the stoning part?

What about it? When the Allies hit Normandy they didn't say "well we're going to reason with the Nazis". They killed them. Israel was God's beachhead, they weren't given orders to be nice with the pagans, they were given explicit instructions to obey the laws of God, and ensure their survival at all costs.