Practicing religion without force

[Dr.Drock]

Since the majority of american women are christian I'll likely marry one and am ok with that.

However I'll never marry someone who forces a kid to go to church or any other religious building. If you ask him/her and he says yes, fine, but I don't want my kid making a choice on his religion until he's old enough to be able to think of the choices.

I find it laughable that people deny forcing kids to think these things is possible. You think those babies born into KKK robes and hoods have the same chance of loving all humanity equally as someone who doesn't?

Amazing that people STILL chalk up kids being the same religion as their parents as mere coincidence.

 

[konradv]

Since God has a Plan as most all of you believe, doesn't it seem funny why he would have old women get raped, or 1000 get killed by a tsunami, or a volcano burns up 1000's or a war gets started and 100,000 get killed by bombs. How does he decide who wins and who loses and why?
Were all those people bad people or do you think it was just a lesson.

I certainly don't believe God has a plan for my life. He has rules. It's up to me to make the plan for my life within that framework. Saying God has a plan for us seems to negate free will, which to me is the core of the whole exercise. When people say "God has a plan" or "Everything happens for a reason", it drives me crazy. NO, he doesn't and NO, it doesn't. I believe in an "hands off" God and what happens to us is chance and our life is what we make of those chances.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Monkey see monkey do. That is all you need to know.


There are different kinds of force to apply in introduction. The kids in your buddhist community are indoctrinating the children who watch. Just as the atheists when they take them to churches to have exposer.

If you don't want to force religion onto children don't show them anything...don't take them anywhere...don't allow them to participate...don't allow them to watch.

I went to Catholic school. I was indoctrinated into many concepts that I was not allowed to question. People didn't practice what was preached.

I see my Buddhist friends not teaching their children directly but modeling love, compassion, and equanimity. This is more useful.

It is all still all indoctrination. Whether you accept or reject what you are being shown, coerced, or indoctrinated into, it is still force. Some "force" is more subtle then others. some "force" is more insidious then others.

Teaching in and of itself is force.

I disagree that teaching is in and of itself force. I'm a teacher. Force is not necessary.

 

[Anachronism]

I really don't have an issue with children being taken to church by their parents. For the most part I think that the majority of churches provide at least as much good teaching as they do bad teaching, and they do much better in general than the schools and the society the kids are seeing on a daily basis. What I do have a problem with is those families where there is force exerted to maintain a certain set of beliefs after the individual has moved out and become their own person.

I grew up in a DEVOUTLY Lutheran home. Heck, you can't swing a stick in my family without hitting someone who works for a church or who has been associated with church leadership in one form or another over the years, including myself. However, once I moved out on my own I stopped regularly attending church and after my father's death in 2001 I left the church body entirely. I know that has made several people in my family unhappy. I don't make a big deal out of it and neither do they. However, I am well aware of families that would have thrown me out on my butt for leaving the church and even considering other religious/spiritual options after my father's death.

 

[Sky Dancer]

There's a big difference between taking a child to Church and enrolling them in Jesus Camp. "There are two kinds of people in the world. People who love Jesus and people who don't."

 

[Anachronism]

I disagree that teaching is in and of itself force. I'm a teacher. Force is not necessary.

I think what syrenn is saying is that whenever a person of authority instructs a child they need to be very careful as to how they approach topics.

For example.... Many of us learned in school that the cause of the American Civil War was..... SLAVERY. In fact that's wrong, but that is what the general curriculum at least was, and I would guess probably still is. As something of a history afficianado I know that's not true, but I run into people all the time who will argue the point with me simply because that's what a teacher taught them in their ninth grade American History class....

THE TEACHER SAID IT, SO IT MUST BE RIGHT. MY PARENTS TOLD ME, SO IT MUST BE RIGHT. These are concepts that in certain circumstances are very good ideas and in others have an exceptionally large potential to be misused.

 

[Anachronism]

There's a big difference between taking a child to Church and enrolling them in Jesus Camp. "There are two kinds of people in the world. People who love Jesus and people who don't."

Sky, my maternal grandfather was a Lutheran Minister for more than 60 years. My mother will finally retire from playing the organ at a church (several different ones) after 52 years (she's 65) this fall. My mother's education is as a Lutheran teacher. My aunt was a Lutheran teacher. One of my uncles was a Minister for the deaf. Jesus Camp has nothing on living the lifestyle 24/7/365 because it's what your entire family does. I spent more time at church than anywhere other than home and school as a kid.

 

[Sky Dancer]

There's a big difference between taking a child to Church and enrolling them in Jesus Camp. "There are two kinds of people in the world. People who love Jesus and people who don't."

Sky, my maternal grandfather was a Lutheran Minister for more than 60 years. My mother will finally retire from playing the organ at a church (several different ones) after 52 years (she's 65) this fall. My mother's education is as a Lutheran teacher. My aunt was a Lutheran teacher. One of my uncles was a Minister for the deaf. Jesus Camp has nothing on living the lifestyle 24/7/365 because it's what your entire family does. I spent more time at church than anywhere other than home and school as a kid.

I was indoctrinated by the RCC. I went to Catholic school. I went to Catholic summer camp. I lived in a Catholic neighborhood. All my relatives are Catholic.

It's a testament to my spirit of wholeness that I was able to choose my own path as an adult.

 

[R.D.]

I think you've started another thread to bash Christianity.

Prove me wrong.

Catholics to be more specific.

I went to Catholic school. I was indoctrinated into many concepts that I was not allowed to question.

I see my Buddhist friends not teaching their children directly but modeling love, compassion, and equanimity. This is more useful.

 

[Sky Dancer]

How is mentioning my Catholic upbringing a bash of Christianity? Is Anachronisms mention of being Lutheran a bash of Lutherans?

The truth is I had many questions as a child and a strong interest in religion and spirituality and I was NOT encouraged to ask questions. Questioning was not a part of my family or religious culture growing up. Corporal punishment was practiced by the nuns who taught me and the people who parented me. Force was present. That doesn't mean I think Catholicism is inherently bad or wrong. If I said that, it would be bashing Catholics.

Not everyone had the traumatic experience being Catholic that I did. Mine was heavy handed a good amount of time. It wasn't all bad for me. Catholicism instilled ethics and the Catholic school I went to was academically advanced. What was difficult for me was that the person who parented me went to mass every day. She also beat the shit out of me, shouted at me, humiliated me and abused me every day. We had the priests over for dinner. She was a pillar of the religious community and a reknowned terror in the neighborhood.

Just my personal experience. For others, it was different.

 

[R.D.]

How is mentioning my Catholic upbringing a bash of Christianity?

I was indoctrinated by the RCC. I went to Catholic school. I went to Catholic summer camp. I lived in a Catholic neighborhood. All my relatives are Catholic.

It's a testament to my spirit of wholeness that I was able to choose my own path as an adult.

You're kinda clueless aren't you?

 

[Sky Dancer]

How is mentioning my Catholic upbringing a bash of Christianity?

I was indoctrinated by the RCC. I went to Catholic school. I went to Catholic summer camp. I lived in a Catholic neighborhood. All my relatives are Catholic.

It's a testament to my spirit of wholeness that I was able to choose my own path as an adult.

You're kinda clueless aren't you?

Leaving the religion of my family is bashing it? You didn't walk in my shoes.

I'm indicating the reasons why a religion that uses force doesn't help everyone using my own experience and emphasizing that it doesn't apply to ALL or even MOST Christians. Sometimes it's too much for a child. It wasn't good for me alot of the time. I did get some good from it, but it was matched for me with abuse. The problem for me was never the Catholic practices or teachings themselves it was the way that my step parent misused the teachings to justify her abuse.

My grandmother was in a Magdalene home in Ireland.

None of these revelations of mine say that my experience was universal in Catholicism. It merely gives background to why making a change to a different path for me was so liberating. I found my own way to Buddhism. No one forced me.

 

[Sky Dancer]

This case of forced indoctrination was lethal to a child:


Dale and Leilani Neumann have been sentenced to second-degree reckless homicide, and face up to 25 years in prison. Their daughter died of a treatable case of diabetes. Dale Neumann told the state of Wisconsin that he believed god could heal his daughter. Read more: Answers.com - Does religious indoctrination of children endanger their mental health

We have areas of the world where forced conversion is happening. Islam comes to mind. The miltary dictator in Burma forced the conversion of ethnic citizens to convert to Buddhism as a type of ethnic cleansing. It's wrong no matter who does it.

 

[syrenn]

I went to Catholic school. I was indoctrinated into many concepts that I was not allowed to question. People didn't practice what was preached.

I see my Buddhist friends not teaching their children directly but modeling love, compassion, and equanimity. This is more useful.

It is all still all indoctrination. Whether you accept or reject what you are being shown, coerced, or indoctrinated into, it is still force. Some "force" is more subtle then others. some "force" is more insidious then others.

Teaching in and of itself is force.

I disagree that teaching is in and of itself force. I'm a teacher. Force is not necessary.

As i have said before, indoctrination to a religion is insidious and takes many forms.

Imparting any knowledge is YOU putting what you want onto someone else. Teaching in force no matter how you want to spin it. Subtle, but force none the less.

 

[Sky Dancer]

It is all still all indoctrination. Whether you accept or reject what you are being shown, coerced, or indoctrinated into, it is still force. Some "force" is more subtle then others. some "force" is more insidious then others.

Teaching in and of itself is force.

I disagree that teaching is in and of itself force. I'm a teacher. Force is not necessary.

As i have said before, indoctrination to a religion is insidious and takes many forms.

Imparting any knowledge is YOU putting what you want onto someone else. Teaching in force no matter how you want to spin it. Subtle, but force none the less.

NO, it's not ALWAYS force in education. There can be support, setting up the conditions for children to learn a topic. Children are all about learning in formal and informal ways. It's natural. There is a big difference in teaching a child how to calm themselves down and forcing them to shut up or using harsh words and violence.

There are natural ways of learning. Force is not necessary.

 

[syrenn]

How is mentioning my Catholic upbringing a bash of Christianity?

I was indoctrinated by the RCC. I went to Catholic school. I went to Catholic summer camp. I lived in a Catholic neighborhood. All my relatives are Catholic.

It's a testament to my spirit of wholeness that I was able to choose my own path as an adult.

You're kinda clueless aren't you?

Leaving the religion of my family is bashing it? You didn't walk in my shoes.

I'm indicating the reasons why a religion that uses force doesn't help everyone using my own experience and emphasizing that it doesn't apply to ALL or even MOST Christians. Sometimes it's too much for a child. It wasn't good for me alot of the time. I did get some good from it, but it was matched for me with abuse. The problem for me was never the Catholic practices or teachings themselves it was the way that my step parent misused the teachings to justify her abuse.

My grandmother was in a Magdalene home in Ireland.

None of these revelations of mine say that my experience was universal in Catholicism. It merely gives background to why making a change to a different path for me was so liberating. I found my own way to Buddhism. No one forced me.

Which is good. Others don't feel any need to change.

Force is force, indoctrination is force, teaching is force. If you don't feel that children should be forced into religion they you should also agree that any exposure to religion...is and of itself...force.

 

[Sky Dancer]

You're kinda clueless aren't you?

Leaving the religion of my family is bashing it? You didn't walk in my shoes.

I'm indicating the reasons why a religion that uses force doesn't help everyone using my own experience and emphasizing that it doesn't apply to ALL or even MOST Christians. Sometimes it's too much for a child. It wasn't good for me alot of the time. I did get some good from it, but it was matched for me with abuse. The problem for me was never the Catholic practices or teachings themselves it was the way that my step parent misused the teachings to justify her abuse.

My grandmother was in a Magdalene home in Ireland.

None of these revelations of mine say that my experience was universal in Catholicism. It merely gives background to why making a change to a different path for me was so liberating. I found my own way to Buddhism. No one forced me.

Which is good. Others don't feel any need to change.

Force is force, indoctrination is force, teaching is force. If you don't feel that children should be forced into religion they you should also agree that any exposure to religion...is and of itself...force.

No, I do not consider any exposure to religion force. If a child wanders into a temple and asks questions no one is forcing them in anything.

Are you a Catholic, syrenn? I hope I haven't offended you.

 

[syrenn]

I disagree that teaching is in and of itself force. I'm a teacher. Force is not necessary.

As i have said before, indoctrination to a religion is insidious and takes many forms.

Imparting any knowledge is YOU putting what you want onto someone else. Teaching in force no matter how you want to spin it. Subtle, but force none the less.

NO, it's not ALWAYS force in education. There can be support, setting up the conditions for children to learn a topic. Children are all about learning in formal and informal ways. It's natural. There is a big difference in teaching a child how to calm themselves down and forcing them to shut up or using harsh words and violence.

There are natural ways of learning. Force is not necessary.

You seem to have a problem with all of the uses of the term, concepts and ideas of force. Some forms of force are more pleasurable then others. Persuasion is a from of force, it is making someone do what YOU want then to do with them knowing it.

Teaching a child to calm themselves down and forcing them to shut up or using harsh words is all the same thing...the outcome is the same. YOU are getting them to do what you WANT them to do. The force you applied no matter what it is is making them behave in a certain manner.

 

[syrenn]

Leaving the religion of my family is bashing it? You didn't walk in my shoes.

I'm indicating the reasons why a religion that uses force doesn't help everyone using my own experience and emphasizing that it doesn't apply to ALL or even MOST Christians. Sometimes it's too much for a child. It wasn't good for me alot of the time. I did get some good from it, but it was matched for me with abuse. The problem for me was never the Catholic practices or teachings themselves it was the way that my step parent misused the teachings to justify her abuse.

My grandmother was in a Magdalene home in Ireland.

None of these revelations of mine say that my experience was universal in Catholicism. It merely gives background to why making a change to a different path for me was so liberating. I found my own way to Buddhism. No one forced me.

Which is good. Others don't feel any need to change.

Force is force, indoctrination is force, teaching is force. If you don't feel that children should be forced into religion they you should also agree that any exposure to religion...is and of itself...force.

No, I do not consider any exposure to religion force. If a child wanders into a temple and asks questions no one is forcing them in anything.

Are you a Catholic, syrenn? I hope I haven't offended you.

No, you have not offended me in the least

Having a temple available to a child...is force. Anyone answering questions within that temple or religion is applying force.

 

[Anachronism]

Having a temple available to a child...is force. Anyone answering questions within that temple or religion is applying force.

Now, does this apply ONLY to children or does it apply to adults who come seeking information as well?

After my father's death in 2001, I went on an almost two year search for "answers". I walked into at least one church/temple/mosque/synagogue of just about every single organized religious group that I could find in that period of time. I will tell you honestly that I was pretty much emotionally open to anyone who I thought could give me an "answer" to the questions that I was asking. IF any one of them had been able to come up with a reasonable, comprehensive answer they probably would have had a convert for life. Not a single one of them could come up with an "answer" that I felt was suitable. More than a few didn't even bother to try.

I was probably even more "open" than a child would have been walking into those places. Should they have been restrained from attempting to answer MY questions as well?