CDZ Police Use of Lethal Force

[Montrovant]

I don't believe in public enforcers, so I do not even accept the existence of police.

And yet it is an objective fact that police exist.

 

[Onyx]

And yet it is an objective fact that police exist.

Sure, but that is open to change.

 

[pismoe]

This may have been brought up before, but why do police have to resort to a "shoot to kill" response if they perceive a threat of great bodily harm to themselves or others? Aren't there other means to subdue dangerous suspects?

I am not criticizing all police shooting deaths, especially if a suspect is pointing a loaded gun at someone, but I am wondering if there are alternate means of immobilizing these suspects. Any thoughts?

What other means? Taser, mace? These don't always immobilize people, and are not necessarily long lasting. If a guy is coming after me with a gun or even a knife, I'd feel much safer shooting him with a gun than a temporary electric shock.

------------------------------------------- cops have a hard job , if an armed person attacks with gun or knife he should be shot same as a guy with a gun would shoot an attacking criminal or intruder in his private home. End the second guessing on police that are attacked by an armed criminal . imo !!

 

[Montrovant]

And yet it is an objective fact that police exist.

Sure, but that is open to change.

True. I find it unlikely to change any time soon. I doubt it will change in our lifetimes.

 

[Onyx]

True. I find it unlikely to change any time soon. I doubt it will change in our lifetimes.

It wont change in our childrens lifetimes. The world has a very short fuse left.

 

[pismoe]

in the old days they were better , they had discretion and less things were illegal and there was no computer . As one example cops would just make kids pour out their beer on the ground and or take you home to Mom and Dad . Hey , i acknowledge that cops have a hard job but ALL jobs are hard at some times .

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

in the old days they were better , they had discretion and less things were illegal and there was no computer . As one example cops would just make kids pour out their beer on the ground and or take you home to Mom and Dad . Hey , i acknowledge that cops have a hard job but ALL jobs are hard at some times .

Back in the day they were much more lenient.
I remember watching the cops out at Bear Creek park outside of Houston making some underage drinkers take turns pumping and holding the keg nozzle till it was empty.
In turn I remember the day in the same park when a cop made me dump my bag of weed on the gravel and stomp on it repeatedly until it was ground to a fine powder.

 

[OnePercenter]

libs are, and they always want to let criminals off. Imagine if we locked them all up how much crime would decrease?

----------------------------------------------------------------- might be so many criminals because there are too many laws . Make enough laws and EVERYONE is a criminal law breaker . I do think though that violent criminals should never get out of lockup Mike .

Which law is 'too many?'

 

[pismoe]

libs are, and they always want to let criminals off. Imagine if we locked them all up how much crime would decrease?

----------------------------------------------------------------- might be so many criminals because there are too many laws . Make enough laws and EVERYONE is a criminal law breaker . I do think though that violent criminals should never get out of lockup Mike .

Which law is 'too many?'

----------------------------------------------- many many gun laws , motorcycle helmet laws , seatbelt laws . Some would say anti prostitution laws and drug laws . Course when it becomes advantageous to the state everything becomes legal , see Nevada for prostitution and a buncha states for legal weed 1%ER .

 

[Montrovant]

libs are, and they always want to let criminals off. Imagine if we locked them all up how much crime would decrease?

----------------------------------------------------------------- might be so many criminals because there are too many laws . Make enough laws and EVERYONE is a criminal law breaker . I do think though that violent criminals should never get out of lockup Mike .

Which law is 'too many?'

----------------------------------------------- many many gun laws , motorcycle helmet laws , seatbelt laws . Some would say anti prostitution laws and drug laws . Course when it becomes advantageous to the state everything becomes legal , see Nevada for prostitution and a buncha states for legal weed 1%ER .

Aren't helmet and seatbelt laws usually civil, rather than criminal, matters?

 

[pismoe]

YEAH might be , I just know that you get a ticket and have to pay money . So then , maybe its laws , rules , regulations and there are too many of them Monte !!

 

[Picaro]

Here is a sampling of one of the biggest demographics involved in both being shot by police and murders of police.

An investigation by the Portland Press Herald and Maine Sunday Telegram has found that a disturbingly high percentage of individuals shot by police suffer from mental health problems. There are no federal statistics on police shootings of mentally ill people, but according to the investigation published this week, “a review of available reports indicates that at least half of the estimated 375 to 500 people shot and killed by police each year in this country have mental health problems.”

The newspapers analyzed in detail the incidents of police deploying deadly force in Maine — a state with a comparatively low crime rate — since 2000. The report noted:

42 percent of people shot by police since 2000 — and 58 percent of those who died from their injuries — had mental health problems, according to reports from the Maine Attorney General’s Office. In many cases, the officers knew that the subjects were disturbed, and they were dead in a matter of moments.

Half of people shot by police are mentally ill, investigation finds

Of course these idiots 'solution' is to keep on making it all a police problem and scapegoat them for a problem they didn't create, not anything remotely sane, like a real plan.

Weak treatment laws contribute to the problem

Part of the problem is ineffective treatment laws that require someone to be dangerous to themself or others before they can be treated over objection. Such laws force law enforcement officers to become involved when a person deteriorates to a dangerous condition. Police are also necessarily called in when a person with mental illness is symptomatic but the mental health system cannot respond because the person does not yet qualify as dangerous.

Eight states still have no mechanism to mandate treatment in a community setting – Connecticut, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, and Tennessee. As inpatient beds continue to dwindle and hospitals continue to close, this often means that people who are in crisis end up in the streets or in jails instead of in treatment. That means more interactions with law enforcement instead of medical personnel.

Police trying to protect people with severe mental illnesses often use "mercy bookings" to get them off of the streets. This is especially true for women, who are easily victimized, and often raped, on the streets.

Pennsylvania changed its mental illness treatment law in 1974 to require dangerousness. Consequently, Philadelphia's police chief issued a directive that nondangerous people who could no longer be taken into custody under the Mental Health Act could be arrested for disorderly conduct. That practice continues today when officers and deputies find there is no alternative way to get psychiatric help for a person who is psychotic but not yet obviously dangerous.20

Managing the risks

Innovative programs designed to manage the risk of encounters with people with untreated mental illnesses have been implemented in some communities.

Crisis intervention training. After a tragic altercation between police and a person with severe mental illness, Memphis, Tennessee developed Crisis Intervention Teams (CIT). CIT officers are "generalist-specialist" law enforcement officers who have 40 hours of training and experience in a special duty assignment (responding to emotional disturbance crisis calls), in addition to making regular police services calls. This approach fosters a partnership between law enforcement and the community. CIT officers learn to interact with people with mental illness who are in crisis in a way that de-escalates, rather than inflames, a tense situation. CIT officers can also divert a person to a mental health treatment facility rather then jail when appropriate. CIT has been shown to reduce officer injury rates five-fold. More and more cities are beginning to make use of such training, including Portland, Oregon; Albuquerque, New Mexico; Seattle, Washington; Houston, Texas, San Jose, California; Salt Lake City, Utah; and Akron, Ohio.21

Mental health officers. Some places make use of a similar program on a smaller scale. In Florence, Alabama, Melissa Beasley is the designated mental health officer. She is called to the scene whenever a suspect is believed to have a mental illness. She is trained to assess whether the person is mentally ill, if the person is dangerous to himself and/or others, whether the person can make a reasonable decision about treatment, and if the person is currently undergoing treatment. Lt. Beasley then takes the individual to the hospital to be evaluated. If the mental health facility determines that the person is mentally ill and should be admitted for treatment, a petition is filed to keep the person in the facility until a court hearing seven days later. The petition is filed by a family member or, if none is available, by Lt. Beasley.22

Mental health courts. According to a collaborative survey conducted by NAMI, The GAINS Center, and the Council of State Governments, at least 94 communities across the United States have established mental health courts as of June 2004.23

Portland State researcher Heidi Herinckx followed 368 people who were diverted to the Clark County Mental Health Court from regular court. She found:

• In the year before being diverted, those in the group were arrested a total of 713 times. • One year after completing the mental health court program, 199 of the group (54 percent) had no new arrests. • For that same period, there were only 178 arrests for the entire group – a 75 percent reduction at a time when there was no longer court oversight. • Probation violations dropped by 62 percent. • The percentage of those in the group with three or more arrests dropped from 26 percent to 3 percent (an 88 percent decline).24 Eighteen months after introducing a mental health court, Oklahoma County officials assert that the county saves as much as $15,000 per year by putting an offender in treatment, rather than jail.25

Assisted outpatient treatment. Police officers and sheriff's deputies are often called in to intervene with homeless people who are delusional, transport people with severe mental illnesses who need emergency evaluations to the hospital, and manage domestic disturbances, incidents of violence, and threats of suicide. Studies and data from states using assisted outpatient treatment (AOT) prove that AOT is effective in reducing incidents of hospitalization, homelessness, arrests and incarcerations, victimization, and violent episodes. AOT also increases treatment compliance and promotes long-term voluntary compliance for people with mental illnesses. These outcomes reduce law enforcement contact with people with severe mental illnesses. See the Treatment Advocacy Center's briefing paper on assisted outpatient treatment for more information.

Law Enforcement interactions with mentally ill

Separated this from the above, for the Millenials and stoners who need shorter blurbs.

Portland State researcher Heidi Herinckx followed 368 people who were diverted to the Clark County Mental Health Court from regular court. She found:

• In the year before being diverted, those in the group were arrested a total of 713 times. • One year after completing the mental health court program, 199 of the group (54 percent) had no new arrests. • For that same period, there were only 178 arrests for the entire group – a 75 percent reduction at a time when there was no longer court oversight. • Probation violations dropped by 62 percent. • The percentage of those in the group with three or more arrests dropped from 26 percent to 3 percent (an 88 percent decline).24 Eighteen months after introducing a mental health court, Oklahoma County officials assert that the county saves as much as $15,000 per year by putting an offender in treatment, rather than jail.25

 

[sakinago]

This may have been brought up before, but why do police have to resort to a "shoot to kill" response if they perceive a threat of great bodily harm to themselves or others? Aren't there other means to subdue dangerous suspects?

I am not criticizing all police shooting deaths, especially if a suspect is pointing a loaded gun at someone, but I am wondering if there are alternate means of immobilizing these suspects. Any thoughts?

There are other ways, just not when a gun is necassary. And techniqly, they don't shoot to kill, they shoot to stop. That just so happens to be aim for center mass. You cannot garuntee that shooting a threat to life in the arm or leg is going to stop the threat to life. Too many variables like, arms and legs are much harder to shoot, even when hit the threat to life still can still shoot back, especially if threat to life is drugged up or having an adrenaline rush and doesn't really feel the shot that much (why the 1911 was created), and mainly almost all shootings don't go the way they do in action movies. In action movies, all heros are crack shots, cars and wood tables offer fine protection, and they're making jokes throughout. This is not reality, in reality most people have never been in a fire fight, when they are, there's a huge adrenaline rush that will cause a loss in disciplined accurate shooting unless very well trained...even though well trained, people find training to be pretty different from the real thing, and there's a lot more to think about like "this drywall isn't going to stop a bullet", or "I have to be careful not to shoot at this angle because there are civilians in the house directly behind the perp.

If you want to discuss are the police justified in drawing their sidearm in a lot of these situations, then that is certainly a different issue. But if the situation calls for the use of a sidearm, the threats to life are probably not going to survive the encounter.

 

[TipOfTheIceberg]

Blunt force trauma is my favorite. Just so long as someone else goes over to disarm them, right?

I've disarmed people with a broomstick. It ain't rocket science. It's training. I have more than a little in that respect but if it was your relative who was LEGALLY carrying a gun, and was complying with the cops orders, who then shot and killed your relative.....how stupid would you feel for allowing untrained LEO's to be out on the street?

Broomstick vs. Glock......Yeah, that's going to end well! LOL

I see you've changed your location again.

It was broomstick vs machete, and I've never changed my location once since I joined, silly boy.

"Machete" that was a great movie.

 

[TipOfTheIceberg]

in the old days they were better , they had discretion and less things were illegal and there was no computer . As one example cops would just make kids pour out their beer on the ground and or take you home to Mom and Dad . Hey , i acknowledge that cops have a hard job but ALL jobs are hard at some times .

In 1959 in Youngstown, Ohio ["Murder City] I was shot at by a park ranger while playing on the swings. I was with a friend and we both ran when he came charging us with a big gun.
Previously, there had been vandalism in "Rocky Ridge Park" and I guess he thought we were vandals.

Anyway, we ran. When he fired his weapon at me I frooze.

Later they caught the vandals who were guilty [turns out they were sons of mafia members].

Also I would like to point out that there was no such thing as Miranda warning.

You did not dare give them any lip or they would beat the shit out of you.

Another time in Freeport tesas I was picked up by the police, interrogated about being a military deserter.

They were baptists, btw.

They forced me into a false confession. I confessed.

the next day I woke up in jail. When they came to release me they were really pissed.

They ordered me to leave town, immediately.

Just saying.