Poland: WW II was caused by the two totalitarian powers : Stalinist Soviet Union and Nazi Germany

[Bleipriester]

Good OP. Until the atomic bomb, the US and UK could not have defeated Germany without the Soviet Union. That being said, Stalin was as (or more) murderous a dictator than Hitler. Regarding Poland, both Germany and the Soviet Union wanted to recover territories they had lost due to WW1. The Poles' recalcitrance on giving Germany territorial access to its East Prussia province gave Hitler an historical argument for invading Poland. Just as with Belgium before WW1, the Brits made empty promises to defend Poland and then used that as an excuse to declare war on Germany. Hitler subsequently sealed his (and Eastern Europe's) fate by attacking the Soviet Union and then declaring war on the United States.

"More murderous" - it's because Stalin defended Russia and didn't let to "civilized countries" to plunder and destroy it? )

Yes, USSR wanted to recover some territories and did it. But talking about "USSR invasion in Poland" is ridiculous, because:

1. USSR forces crossed the border at 17th of September, right after Poland government officially capitulated. Are they invaded in Poland? I'm not sure - Poland didn't existed at this moment. It was an operation at potencially German territory and against German, what's the matter?
2. USSR forced returned territories at the east of Curzon Line - recognized by all world society and Antanta/Britain in particular as ethnically Russian territories.

So, USSR just ratified the solution of world society and started the war with "less murderous dictator", murdered to that moment a several million jews in Holocaust... Where I could be wrong, heh?

Soviet and Nazis in occupied Poland, socializing after joint victory parade.

German–Soviet military parade in Brest-Litovsk - Axis History Forum

Well, no more interventionism.

 

[rightwinger]

Without the Eastern Front occupying most of the German Army, D-Day would have been impossible.

its a stalinists myth, USA had 50% world GDP and 95% of world high tech GDP in 1945. Germany had 0 chance much like Koba´s ussr

Without USSR occupying most of Germany’s army, the D Day invasion would have been a massacre costing hundreds of thousands more US lives
I don’t know if the US would have tolerated it

 

[Correll]

Without the Eastern Front occupying most of the German Army, D-Day would have been impossible.

its a stalinists myth, USA had 50% world GDP and 95% of world high tech GDP in 1945. Germany had 0 chance much like Koba´s ussr

Without USSR occupying most of Germany’s army, the D Day invasion would have been a massacre costing hundreds of thousands more US lives
I don’t know if the US would have tolerated it

Without the Eastern Front, the US would not have launched D-Day, at that time, at least.

 

[Litwin]

Without the Eastern Front occupying most of the German Army, D-Day would have been impossible.

its a stalinists myth, USA had 50% world GDP and 95% of world high tech GDP in 1945. Germany had 0 chance much like Koba´s ussr

Without USSR occupying most of Germany’s army, the D Day invasion would have been a massacre costing hundreds of thousands more US lives
I don’t know if the US would have tolerated it

without koba´s ussr USA did not need to fight at all in Europe

US ambassador in Poland says Soviet Union helped start WWII

https://www.dw.com › us-ambassador-in-poland-say...
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30 dec. 2019 - Germany and Russia colluded to invade Poland, US envoy to Warsaw Georgette Mosbacher said in a tweet. Her comments follow claims by ...

 

[Litwin]

Without the Eastern Front occupying most of the German Army, D-Day would have been impossible.

its a stalinists myth, USA had 50% world GDP and 95% of world high tech GDP in 1945. Germany had 0 chance much like Koba´s ussr

Without USSR occupying most of Germany’s army, the D Day invasion would have been a massacre costing hundreds of thousands more US lives
I don’t know if the US would have tolerated it

Without the Eastern Front, the US would not have launched D-Day, at that time, at least.

in 1945 Nazis time d be over , do you agree on this? much like Nazis´s ally USSR

 

[jwoodie]

The number of military forces at the disposal of Nazi Germany reached its peak during 1944. Tanks on the east front peaked at 5,202 in November 1944, while total aircraft in the Luftwaffe inventory peaked at 5,041 in December 1944. By D-Day 157 German divisions were stationed in the Soviet Union, 6 in Finland, 12 in Norway, 6 in Denmark, 9 in Germany, 21 in the Balkans, 26 in Italy and 59 in France, Belgium and the Netherlands. However, these statistics are somewhat misleading since a significant number of the divisions in the east were depleted; German records indicate that the average personnel complement was at about 50% in the spring of 1944. -Wikipedia D-Day

 

[Sbiker]

Without the Eastern Front occupying most of the German Army, D-Day would have been impossible.

its a stalinists myth, USA had 50% world GDP and 95% of world high tech GDP in 1945. Germany had 0 chance much like Koba´s ussr

Without USSR occupying most of Germany’s army, the D Day invasion would have been a massacre costing hundreds of thousands more US lives
I don’t know if the US would have tolerated it

without koba´s ussr USA did not need to fight at all in Europe

US ambassador in Poland says Soviet Union helped start WWII

https://www.dw.com › us-ambassador-in-poland-say...
Översätt den här sidan
30 dec. 2019 - Germany and Russia colluded to invade Poland, US envoy to Warsaw Georgette Mosbacher said in a tweet. Her comments follow claims by ...

Without Coba it just could be "Man in High Castle" scenario... Do you think, you're more clever than Franklin Roosevelt?

 

[Sbiker]

Good OP. Until the atomic bomb, the US and UK could not have defeated Germany without the Soviet Union. That being said, Stalin was as (or more) murderous a dictator than Hitler. Regarding Poland, both Germany and the Soviet Union wanted to recover territories they had lost due to WW1. The Poles' recalcitrance on giving Germany territorial access to its East Prussia province gave Hitler an historical argument for invading Poland. Just as with Belgium before WW1, the Brits made empty promises to defend Poland and then used that as an excuse to declare war on Germany. Hitler subsequently sealed his (and Eastern Europe's) fate by attacking the Soviet Union and then declaring war on the United States.

"More murderous" - it's because Stalin defended Russia and didn't let to "civilized countries" to plunder and destroy it? )

Yes, USSR wanted to recover some territories and did it. But talking about "USSR invasion in Poland" is ridiculous, because:

1. USSR forces crossed the border at 17th of September, right after Poland government officially capitulated. Are they invaded in Poland? I'm not sure - Poland didn't existed at this moment. It was an operation at potencially German territory and against German, what's the matter?
2. USSR forced returned territories at the east of Curzon Line - recognized by all world society and Antanta/Britain in particular as ethnically Russian territories.

So, USSR just ratified the solution of world society and started the war with "less murderous dictator", murdered to that moment a several million jews in Holocaust... Where I could be wrong, heh?

Soviet and Nazis in occupied Poland, socializing after joint victory parade.

German–Soviet military parade in Brest-Litovsk - Axis History Forum

maps

Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact - Wikipedia

Just a fantasies... Let's begin from fact, that document, named "Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact" never existed ) It had name "Deutsch-sowjetischer Nichtangriffspakt" - the same non-aggression agreement Nazi Germany already had... for example, with Lithuania. Offcourse, you want to "forget" it.... ))))

 

[Correll]

Without the Eastern Front occupying most of the German Army, D-Day would have been impossible.

its a stalinists myth, USA had 50% world GDP and 95% of world high tech GDP in 1945. Germany had 0 chance much like Koba´s ussr

Without USSR occupying most of Germany’s army, the D Day invasion would have been a massacre costing hundreds of thousands more US lives
I don’t know if the US would have tolerated it

Without the Eastern Front, the US would not have launched D-Day, at that time, at least.

in 1945 Nazis time d be over , do you agree on this? much like Nazis´s ally USSR

Sure. Once nukes are developed, there is no hope for the Nazis.

 

[Syriusly]

Stalin murdered millions of Soviet citizens-

How many millions? Which documents could prove it?

along with millions of Poles

How many millions? Poland loss about 60 thousands soldiers in 1939 year, mostly at west front... Where the millions, killed by Stalin?

and other nationalities.

Which else nationalities we have to discuss?
It's interesting, but I never find any photo of "JOINT" parade of Soviet and Nazi armies in Brest-Litovsk. Yes - there are a lot of photo of marching Wiermacht and Soviet and Nazi soldiers, standing together.. Where the photo, where they _marching_ together at parade??? With a lot photo of other types of interaction?

Fascinating how much in denial you are.
https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin
The Ukrainian famine—known as the Holodomor, a combination of the Ukrainian words for “starvation” and “to inflict death”—by one estimate claimed the lives of 3.9 million people, about 13 percent of the population. And, unlike other famines in history caused by blight or drought, this was caused when a dictator wanted both to replace Ukraine’s small farms with state-run collectives and punish independence-minded Ukrainians who posed a threat to his totalitarian authority.

“The Ukrainian famine was a clear case of a man-made famine,” explains Alex de Waal, executive director of the World Peace Foundation at Tufts University and author of the 2018 book, Mass Starvation: The History and Future of Famine. He describes it as “a hybrid…of a famine caused by calamitous social-economic policies and one aimed at a particular population for repression or punishment.”

https://www.history.com/topics/russia/great-purge
The Great Purge, also known as the “Great Terror,” was a brutal political campaign led by Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin to eliminate dissenting members of the Communist Party and anyone else he considered a threat. Although estimates vary, most experts believe at least 750,000 people were executed during the Great Purge, which took place between about 1936 and 1938. More than a million other people were sent to forced labor camps, known as Gulags.


On 24 September, the Soviets killed 42 staff and patients of a Polish military hospital in the village of Grabowiec, near Zamość.[102] The Soviets also executed all the Polish officers they captured after the Battle of Szack, on 28 September 1939.[86] The NKVD killed 22,000 Polish military personnel and civilians in the Katyn massacre.[1][84] Torture was used by the NKVD on a wide scale in various prisons, especially those in small towns.[103]

The Soviet NKVD executed about 65,000 imprisoned Poles after kangaroo trials.[12]

The number of Poles who died due to Soviet repressions in the period 1939-1941 is estimated as at least 150,000.[3][5]

Altogether the Soviets sent roughly a million people from Poland to Siberia.[31] According to Norman Davies,[32] almost half had died by the time the Sikorski-Mayski Agreement had been signed in 1941.[12] Around 55% of the deportees to Siberia and Soviet Central Asia were Polish women.[33]

In 1940 and the first half of 1941, the Soviets deported a total of more than 1,200,000 Poles in four waves of mass deportations from the Soviet-occupied Polish territories. The first major operation took place on February 10, 1940, with more than 220,000 people sent primarily to far north and east Russia, including Siberia and Khabarovsk Krai. The second wave of 13 April 1940, consisted of 320,000 people sent primarily to Kazakhstan. The third wave of June–July 1940 totaled more than 240,000. The fourth and final wave occurred in June 1941, deporting 300,000.

 

[jwoodie]

Once nukes are developed, there is no hope for the Nazis.

But what if the Nazis had taken over all of Europe (including the UK)? Even the B-29s couldn't reach Germany from North America, and there was growing opposition to the terror bombing of German cities. If Hitler hadn't declared war on the U.S., a negotiated peace might have ensued.

 

[Syriusly]

Once nukes are developed, there is no hope for the Nazis.

But what if the Nazis had taken over all of Europe (including the UK)? Even the B-29s couldn't reach Germany from North America, and there was growing opposition to the terror bombing of German cities. If Hitler hadn't declared war on the U.S., a negotiated peace might have ensued.

I think you have a valid point. If Germany had conquered the UK, leaving no Allied country available in Europe- which was conceivable if Germany had not attacked the Soviet Union- and Germany had not declared war on the U.S., I think the U.S. would have defeated Japan, and by the time that was done- would have been too war weary to go to war with Germany- even with nukes.

Besides by that time Germany and the Soviets would certainly have been at war- and I don't think the U.S. would have been real eager to take sides at that point.

 

[Litwin]

"Without Coba it just could be "Man in High Castle" scenario... Do you think, you're more clever than Franklin Roosevelt? "

yes i am , it was the worst USA president surrounded by koba´s spies, stalinists and Marxist useful idiots . even maskal like must know it

 

[Litwin]

Without the Eastern Front occupying most of the German Army, D-Day would have been impossible.

its a stalinists myth, USA had 50% world GDP and 95% of world high tech GDP in 1945. Germany had 0 chance much like Koba´s ussr

Without USSR occupying most of Germany’s army, the D Day invasion would have been a massacre costing hundreds of thousands more US lives
I don’t know if the US would have tolerated it

Without the Eastern Front, the US would not have launched D-Day, at that time, at least.

in 1945 Nazis time d be over , do you agree on this? much like Nazis´s ally USSR

Sure. Once nukes are developed, there is no hope for the Nazis.

well, one way or another USA´d fuck over both totalitarian empires - commie and Nazi anyway , it just matter of time

 

[Litwin]

Once nukes are developed, there is no hope for the Nazis.

But what if the Nazis had taken over all of Europe (including the UK)? Even the B-29s couldn't reach Germany from North America, and there was growing opposition to the terror bombing of German cities. If Hitler hadn't declared war on the U.S., a negotiated peace might have ensued.

Allied invasion of Sicily - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Allied_invasion_of...
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The Allied invasion of Sicily, codenamed Operation Husky, was a major campaign of World War II, in which the Allies took the island of Sicily from the Axis powers (the Kingdom of Italy and Nazi Germany).
Result‎: ‎Allied victory: Effective collapse of Mus...
Location‎: ‎Sicily, Italy
Date‎: ‎9 July – 17 August 1943


Operation Torch - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Operation_Torch
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Operation Torch (8–16 November 1942) was an Anglo–American invasion of French North Africa during the Second World War. ... Torch was the first mass involvement of US troops in the European–North African Theatre, and saw the first major airborne assault carried out by the United States.

World War II: The North African Campaign - The Atlantic

https://www.theatlantic.com › photo › 2011/09 › wo...
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4 sep. 2011 - World War II: The North African Campaign ... Italy invaded Egypt in September of 1940, and in a December counterattack, British and Indian ...
The US Invasion of North Africa | The National WWII Museum ...

https://www.nationalww2museum.org › war › articles
Översätt den här sidan
9 jan. 2018 - The US Invasion of North Africa. As the "Hinge of Fate" was turning across the globe, Operation Torch became the US military's first step toward ...

 

[Litwin]

Stalin murdered millions of Soviet citizens-

How many millions? Which documents could prove it?

along with millions of Poles

How many millions? Poland loss about 60 thousands soldiers in 1939 year, mostly at west front... Where the millions, killed by Stalin?

and other nationalities.

Which else nationalities we have to discuss?
It's interesting, but I never find any photo of "JOINT" parade of Soviet and Nazi armies in Brest-Litovsk. Yes - there are a lot of photo of marching Wiermacht and Soviet and Nazi soldiers, standing together.. Where the photo, where they _marching_ together at parade??? With a lot photo of other types of interaction?

Fascinating how much in denial you are.
https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin
The Ukrainian famine—known as the Holodomor, a combination of the Ukrainian words for “starvation” and “to inflict death”—by one estimate claimed the lives of 3.9 million people, about 13 percent of the population. And, unlike other famines in history caused by blight or drought, this was caused when a dictator wanted both to replace Ukraine’s small farms with state-run collectives and punish independence-minded Ukrainians who posed a threat to his totalitarian authority.

“The Ukrainian famine was a clear case of a man-made famine,” explains Alex de Waal, executive director of the World Peace Foundation at Tufts University and author of the 2018 book, Mass Starvation: The History and Future of Famine. He describes it as “a hybrid…of a famine caused by calamitous social-economic policies and one aimed at a particular population for repression or punishment.”

https://www.history.com/topics/russia/great-purge
The Great Purge, also known as the “Great Terror,” was a brutal political campaign led by Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin to eliminate dissenting members of the Communist Party and anyone else he considered a threat. Although estimates vary, most experts believe at least 750,000 people were executed during the Great Purge, which took place between about 1936 and 1938. More than a million other people were sent to forced labor camps, known as Gulags.


On 24 September, the Soviets killed 42 staff and patients of a Polish military hospital in the village of Grabowiec, near Zamość.[102] The Soviets also executed all the Polish officers they captured after the Battle of Szack, on 28 September 1939.[86] The NKVD killed 22,000 Polish military personnel and civilians in the Katyn massacre.[1][84] Torture was used by the NKVD on a wide scale in various prisons, especially those in small towns.[103]

The Soviet NKVD executed about 65,000 imprisoned Poles after kangaroo trials.[12]

The number of Poles who died due to Soviet repressions in the period 1939-1941 is estimated as at least 150,000.[3][5]

Altogether the Soviets sent roughly a million people from Poland to Siberia.[31] According to Norman Davies,[32] almost half had died by the time the Sikorski-Mayski Agreement had been signed in 1941.[12] Around 55% of the deportees to Siberia and Soviet Central Asia were Polish women.[33]

In 1940 and the first half of 1941, the Soviets deported a total of more than 1,200,000 Poles in four waves of mass deportations from the Soviet-occupied Polish territories. The first major operation took place on February 10, 1940, with more than 220,000 people sent primarily to far north and east Russia, including Siberia and Khabarovsk Krai. The second wave of 13 April 1940, consisted of 320,000 people sent primarily to Kazakhstan. The third wave of June–July 1940 totaled more than 240,000. The fourth and final wave occurred in June 1941, deporting 300,000.

"Red Famine: Stalin's War on Ukraine" by Anne Applebaum

 

[Syriusly]

its a stalinists myth, USA had 50% world GDP and 95% of world high tech GDP in 1945. Germany had 0 chance much like Koba´s ussr

Without USSR occupying most of Germany’s army, the D Day invasion would have been a massacre costing hundreds of thousands more US lives
I don’t know if the US would have tolerated it

Without the Eastern Front, the US would not have launched D-Day, at that time, at least.

in 1945 Nazis time d be over , do you agree on this? much like Nazis´s ally USSR

Sure. Once nukes are developed, there is no hope for the Nazis.

well, one way or another USA´d fuck over both totalitarian empires - commie and Nazi anyway , it just matter of time

We can only hope we would have.

 

[Syriusly]

Once nukes are developed, there is no hope for the Nazis.

But what if the Nazis had taken over all of Europe (including the UK)? Even the B-29s couldn't reach Germany from North America, and there was growing opposition to the terror bombing of German cities. If Hitler hadn't declared war on the U.S., a negotiated peace might have ensued.

Allied invasion of Sicily - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Allied_invasion_of...
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The Allied invasion of Sicily, codenamed Operation Husky, was a major campaign of World War II, in which the Allies took the island of Sicily from the Axis powers (the Kingdom of Italy and Nazi Germany).
Result‎: ‎Allied victory: Effective collapse of Mus...
Location‎: ‎Sicily, Italy
Date‎: ‎9 July – 17 August 1943


Operation Torch - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Operation_Torch
Översätt den här sidan
Operation Torch (8–16 November 1942) was an Anglo–American invasion of French North Africa during the Second World War. ... Torch was the first mass involvement of US troops in the European–North African Theatre, and saw the first major airborne assault carried out by the United States.

World War II: The North African Campaign - The Atlantic

https://www.theatlantic.com › photo › 2011/09 › wo...
Översätt den här sidan
4 sep. 2011 - World War II: The North African Campaign ... Italy invaded Egypt in September of 1940, and in a December counterattack, British and Indian ...
The US Invasion of North Africa | The National WWII Museum ...

https://www.nationalww2museum.org › war › articles
Översätt den här sidan
9 jan. 2018 - The US Invasion of North Africa. As the "Hinge of Fate" was turning across the globe, Operation Torch became the US military's first step toward ...

While the U.S. did launch Operation Torch from the U.S., I doubt such an action would have taken place if
a) the UK was defeated and occupied by Germany and
b) Germany didn't declare war on the U.S.

 

[Litwin]

Once nukes are developed, there is no hope for the Nazis.

But what if the Nazis had taken over all of Europe (including the UK)? Even the B-29s couldn't reach Germany from North America, and there was growing opposition to the terror bombing of German cities. If Hitler hadn't declared war on the U.S., a negotiated peace might have ensued.

Allied invasion of Sicily - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Allied_invasion_of...
Översätt den här sidan
The Allied invasion of Sicily, codenamed Operation Husky, was a major campaign of World War II, in which the Allies took the island of Sicily from the Axis powers (the Kingdom of Italy and Nazi Germany).
Result‎: ‎Allied victory: Effective collapse of Mus...
Location‎: ‎Sicily, Italy
Date‎: ‎9 July – 17 August 1943


Operation Torch - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Operation_Torch
Översätt den här sidan
Operation Torch (8–16 November 1942) was an Anglo–American invasion of French North Africa during the Second World War. ... Torch was the first mass involvement of US troops in the European–North African Theatre, and saw the first major airborne assault carried out by the United States.

World War II: The North African Campaign - The Atlantic

https://www.theatlantic.com › photo › 2011/09 › wo...
Översätt den här sidan
4 sep. 2011 - World War II: The North African Campaign ... Italy invaded Egypt in September of 1940, and in a December counterattack, British and Indian ...
The US Invasion of North Africa | The National WWII Museum ...

https://www.nationalww2museum.org › war › articles
Översätt den här sidan
9 jan. 2018 - The US Invasion of North Africa. As the "Hinge of Fate" was turning across the globe, Operation Torch became the US military's first step toward ...

While the U.S. did launch Operation Torch from the U.S., I doubt such an action would have taken place if
a) the UK was defeated and occupied by Germany and
b) Germany didn't declare war on the U.S.

you are wrong, if Germany ´d destroy Stalinist Marxist empire, it´d be even more easy for USA to liberate the world from all evil , Germany´s supply lines ´d be outstretched even more

 

[Syriusly]

Once nukes are developed, there is no hope for the Nazis.

But what if the Nazis had taken over all of Europe (including the UK)? Even the B-29s couldn't reach Germany from North America, and there was growing opposition to the terror bombing of German cities. If Hitler hadn't declared war on the U.S., a negotiated peace might have ensued.

Allied invasion of Sicily - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Allied_invasion_of...
Översätt den här sidan
The Allied invasion of Sicily, codenamed Operation Husky, was a major campaign of World War II, in which the Allies took the island of Sicily from the Axis powers (the Kingdom of Italy and Nazi Germany).
Result‎: ‎Allied victory: Effective collapse of Mus...
Location‎: ‎Sicily, Italy
Date‎: ‎9 July – 17 August 1943


Operation Torch - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Operation_Torch
Översätt den här sidan
Operation Torch (8–16 November 1942) was an Anglo–American invasion of French North Africa during the Second World War. ... Torch was the first mass involvement of US troops in the European–North African Theatre, and saw the first major airborne assault carried out by the United States.

World War II: The North African Campaign - The Atlantic

https://www.theatlantic.com › photo › 2011/09 › wo...
Översätt den här sidan
4 sep. 2011 - World War II: The North African Campaign ... Italy invaded Egypt in September of 1940, and in a December counterattack, British and Indian ...
The US Invasion of North Africa | The National WWII Museum ...

https://www.nationalww2museum.org › war › articles
Översätt den här sidan
9 jan. 2018 - The US Invasion of North Africa. As the "Hinge of Fate" was turning across the globe, Operation Torch became the US military's first step toward ...

While the U.S. did launch Operation Torch from the U.S., I doubt such an action would have taken place if
a) the UK was defeated and occupied by Germany and
b) Germany didn't declare war on the U.S.

you are wrong, if Germany ´d destroy Stalinist Marxist empire, it´d be even more easy for USA to liberate the world from all evil , Germany´s supply lines ´d be outstretched even more

LOL what makes you think that the USA would 'liberate the world from all evil'?

Could Germany have defeated the Soviet Union? I don't know that would be possible. If Germany focused on defeating the UK, I think that would have been possible. But that would have given the Soviet Union more time to:
a) Build modern tanks- at the beginning of the war the Soviets had mostly obsolete tanks and few T-34's and KV-1's. By 1943 the Soviets were cranking out tanks- and that was while they were being invaded by Germany. Soviet tank production dwarfed Germany's.
b) Build more of everything- artillery, assault guns, divisions. The Soviets industrial capacity was expanding.
c) Rebuild the officer corps after the purges of the 30's.

Certainly German military leadership would have been superior but presuming technology advancements advanced at historical rates, by 1944 Germany would have had superior armor that was technologically harder to manufacture- and poorly suited for offense(think Tiger II, Jagtiger), while the Soviets were cranking out more easily manufactured armor that was almost as good as the German(T-34/85, JS1, SU-152), and better suited for offense(more reliable, faster)