Planned Parenthood Exposed - New Undercover Video

[Makedde]

I would say murdering your baby is not a option

Which is exactly why we do not need parental consent laws. Certainly not with attitudes like that.

 

[Silence]

here ya go agna...something for you to think about

NIMH · Teenage Brain: A work in progress

To confirm this in living humans, the UCLA researchers compared MRI scans of young adults, 23-30, with those of teens, 12-16.4 They looked for signs of myelin, which would imply more mature, efficient connections, within gray matter. As expected, areas of the frontal lobe showed the largest differences between young adults and teens. This increased myelination in the adult frontal cortex likely relates to the maturation of cognitive processing and other "executive" functions. Parietal and temporal areas mediating spatial, sensory, auditory and language functions appeared largely mature in the teen brain. The observed late maturation of the frontal lobe conspicuously coincides with the typical age-of-onset of schizophrenia—late teens, early twenties—which, as noted earlier, is characterized by impaired "executive" functioning.

Another series of MRI studies is shedding light on how teens may process emotions differently than adults. Using functional MRI (fMRI), a team led by Dr. Deborah Yurgelun-Todd at Harvard's McLean Hospital scanned subjects' brain activity while they identified emotions on pictures of faces displayed on a computer screen.5 Young teens, who characteristically perform poorly on the task, activated the amygdala, a brain center that mediates fear and other "gut" reactions, more than the frontal lobe. As teens grow older, their brain activity during this task tends to shift to the frontal lobe, leading to more reasoned perceptions and improved performance. Similarly, the researchers saw a shift in activation from the temporal lobe to the frontal lobe during a language skills task, as teens got older. These functional changes paralleled structural changes in temporal lobe white matter.

so you see Agna, it's scientifically proven that the brain is still developing well into the teen years.

HowStuffWorks "Teenage Brain Development"

Imaging studies have shown that most of the mental energy that teenagers use in making decisions is located in the back of the brain, whereas adults do most of their processing in the frontal lobe [source: Wallis]. When teenagers do use the frontal lobe, it seems they overdo it, calling upon much more of the brain to get the job done than adults would [source: Powell]. And because adults have already refined those communicating synapses, they can make decisions more quickly.


Adult brains are also better wired to notice errors in decision-making. While adults performed tasks that required the quick response of pushing buttons, their brains sent out a signal when a hasty mistake was made. Before 80 milliseconds had passed, adult brains had noticed the blunder, but teenage brains didn't notice any slip-up [source: Monastersky].

and since you love pictures and graphs

 

[Agnapostate]

here ya go agna...something for you to think about

NIMH · Teenage Brain: A work in progress

To confirm this in living humans, the UCLA researchers compared MRI scans of young adults, 23-30, with those of teens, 12-16.4 They looked for signs of myelin, which would imply more mature, efficient connections, within gray matter. As expected, areas of the frontal lobe showed the largest differences between young adults and teens. This increased myelination in the adult frontal cortex likely relates to the maturation of cognitive processing and other "executive" functions. Parietal and temporal areas mediating spatial, sensory, auditory and language functions appeared largely mature in the teen brain. The observed late maturation of the frontal lobe conspicuously coincides with the typical age-of-onset of schizophrenia—late teens, early twenties—which, as noted earlier, is characterized by impaired "executive" functioning.

Another series of MRI studies is shedding light on how teens may process emotions differently than adults. Using functional MRI (fMRI), a team led by Dr. Deborah Yurgelun-Todd at Harvard's McLean Hospital scanned subjects' brain activity while they identified emotions on pictures of faces displayed on a computer screen.5 Young teens, who characteristically perform poorly on the task, activated the amygdala, a brain center that mediates fear and other "gut" reactions, more than the frontal lobe. As teens grow older, their brain activity during this task tends to shift to the frontal lobe, leading to more reasoned perceptions and improved performance. Similarly, the researchers saw a shift in activation from the temporal lobe to the frontal lobe during a language skills task, as teens got older. These functional changes paralleled structural changes in temporal lobe white matter.

so you see Agna, it's scientifically proven that the brain is still developing well into the teen years.

HowStuffWorks "Teenage Brain Development"

Imaging studies have shown that most of the mental energy that teenagers use in making decisions is located in the back of the brain, whereas adults do most of their processing in the frontal lobe [source: Wallis]. When teenagers do use the frontal lobe, it seems they overdo it, calling upon much more of the brain to get the job done than adults would [source: Powell]. And because adults have already refined those communicating synapses, they can make decisions more quickly.

Adult brains are also better wired to notice errors in decision-making. While adults performed tasks that required the quick response of pushing buttons, their brains sent out a signal when a hasty mistake was made. Before 80 milliseconds had passed, adult brains had noticed the blunder, but teenage brains didn't notice any slip-up [source: Monastersky].

and since you love pictures and graphs

I'm becoming genuinely convinced that you don't read what I write. This will now be the third time that I have have addressed those magnetic resonance imaging and functional magnetic resonance imaging scans. In fact, I addressed them in my very first on-topic post in this thread.

This isn't an especially potent argument when it comes to those of us who also propose that adolescents ought to be financially independent, as I mentioned previously.

I addressed those studies in my very first on-topic post in this thread.

Of course, there is a wider issue than biological maturity, that being the mental maturity of minors, which is often described as being separate from mere biological maturity and severely lacking and not equivalent to that of a legal adult. My contention is that, contrary to popular belief, the commonly accepted claim that adolescents are incapable of exercising rational judgment abilities is not an indisputably correct one. Supporters of this position frequently cite studies conducted with the use of magnetic resonance imaging or functional magnetic resonance imaging that illustrate that the teenage brain is “underdeveloped,” and that adolescents are thus often incapable of making rational or well informed decisions about significant issues. Yet, as Dr. Robert Epstein, former editor of Psychology Today, notes in an article published in Scientific American Mind, thought there is some semblance of a correlation between adolescence and brain development illustrated in these scans, there is no evidence of causation by a natural stage of adolescence. His chief counter-argument references the fact that adolescents have been severely infantilized in modern society, in contrast to the important adult role they played in past times, and it may be this factor that has led to the lack of brain development so commonly assumed to be a natural byproduct of adolescence. As such, it would not be intellectually honest to declare the infallibility of these scans just yet.

And that (^^^) is the value of the studies that I have provided.

In addition to that, I wish to cite the testimony and research of a sociologist who has done extensive research in this field, Dr. Mike Males.

I would advise you to have a look at this: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/17/opinion/17males.html

As well as this: Welcome to YouthFacts.org - Know the Facts, Think Differently...

And here's an excerpt from Dr. Epstein, which I didn't post before.

This work seems to support the idea of the teen brain we see in the headlines until we realize two things. First, most of the brain changes that are observed during the teen years lie on a continuum
of changes that take place over much of our lives. For example, a 1993 study by Jésus Pujol and his colleagues at the Autonomous University of Barcelona looked at changes in the corpus callosum—a massive structure that connects the two sides of the brain—over a two-year period with individuals between 11 and 61 years old. They found that although the rate of growth declined as people aged, this structure still grew by about 4 percent each year in people in their 40s (compared with a growth rate of 29 percent in their youngest subjects). Other studies, conducted by researchers such as Elizabeth Sowell of the University of California, Los Angeles, show that gray matter in the brain continues to disappear from childhood well into adulthood. Second, I have not been able to find even
a single study that establishes a causal relation between the properties of the brain being examined and the problems we see in teens. By their very nature, imaging studies are correlational, showing simply that activity in the brain is associated with certain behavior or emotion. As we learn in elementary statistics courses, correlation does not even imply causation. In that sense, no imaging study could possibly identify the brain as a causal agent, no matter what areas of the brain were being observed.

And an excerpt from Dr. Males:

But there are compelling reasons than the intemperate name-calling reporters and authorities hurl at teens, their crude stereotypes of adolescents, and the self-pitying nature of Baby-Boom parents quoted in such news reports (these are examples of mature adult cerebral cortexes at work?) that should cast doubt on the latest “teen brain” furor. The science behind it is based on antiquated politics and selective citations, not objective rigor. Nor do claims that teenage brains are some awful mistake of nature hold up either in practical research or the real world. If biodeterminist notions about adolescents are valid, they should apply to all teens—yet, middle-class and more affluent American adolescents and European youth display very low rates of risky behaviors of the types commentators stereotype as characteristic of teenagers.

Moreover, I'm curious to know why you're now demanding that I respond to your "studies," (which I already have), when you still haven't responded to this.

There are several studies that have been conducted on the basis of measuring the actual competency of adolescents to make informed decisions, as opposed to highly speculative guesswork based on snapshots of the brain.

An important one is that of Lois A. Weithorn and Susan B. Campbell, which tested four groups of people, aged 9, 14, 18, and 21. The study, entitled The Competency of Children and Adolescents to Make Informed Treatment Decisions, came to the conclusion that 14 year olds were capable of making medical decisions with a level of competence equivalent to that of legal adults. As partially summarized by Weithorn and Campbell:

"In general, minors aged 14 were found to demonstrate a level of competency equivalent to that of adults, according to four standards of competency (evidence of choice, reasonable outcome, rational reasons, and understanding), and for four hypothetical dilemmas (diabetes, epilepsy, depression and enuresis.)…The findings of this research do not lend support to policies which deny adolescents the right of self-determination in treatment situations on the basis of a presumption of incapacity to provide informed consent. The ages of eighteen or twenty-one as the “cutoffs” below which individuals are presumed to be incompetent to make determinations about their own welfare do not reflect the psychological capacities of most adolescents."

The earlier study of researchers Grisso and Vierling, Minors’ Consent to Treatment: A Developmental Perspective, came to a similar conclusion, the authors stating that “existing evidence provides no legal assumption that minors aged 15 years and above cannot provide competent consent.”

Researchers Bruce Ambuel and Julian Rappaport discovered similar results in a study intended to specifically focus on this topic, entitled Developmental trends in adolescents' psychological and legal competence to consent to abortion. The study confirmed the fact that the rational judgment and decision making capacities of adolescents, (particularly those at or beyond mid-adolescence), were often on par with those of adults.

In a wide-ranging review of the developmental literature on adolescents’ abilities to make rational decisions about medical treatment, researchers Kuther and Posada confirmed that, “the literature in developmental psychology has shown that adolescents are able to make meaningful decisions and advocates for youth have argued that researchers must respect the autonomy rights of children and adolescents,” thus confirming the legitimacy and validity of the previous studies to a great degree.

 

[Silence]

no need to wonder Anga, I don't read what you write It's too long and frankly you're an idiot.

 

[Agnapostate]

no need to wonder Anga, I don't read what you write It's too long and frankly you're an idiot.

The only idiot here is you, which is why your pathetic attempt to toss out some "evidence" was rebutted so easily.

 

[Agnapostate]

eots, please, don't even bother.

 

[Silence]

I do laugh at the fact that you summarily dismiss the medical evidence that shows a teens brain isn't fully developed and therefore they are incapable of "executive" decision making. Why don't you give it up Agna.... no one, despite your "evidence" adhere to your logic because some of us have enough experience and enough contact with young teens to know that regardless of what some quacky "study" shows, teens aren't adults.

 

[eots]

eots, please, don't even bother.

what ? ..trying to get a honest answer from you ?

 

[Agnapostate]

I do laugh at the fact that you summarily dismiss the medical evidence that shows a teens brain isn't fully developed and therefore they are incapable of "executive" decision making. Why don't you give it up Agna.... no one, despite your "evidence" adhere to your logic because some of us have enough experience and enough contact with young teens to know that regardless of what some quacky "study" shows, teens aren't adults.

"Summarily dismiss"? I posted several rational articles that were critical of MRI and fMRI scans because of their scientific invalidity. One was from the former editor-in-chief of Psychology Today, a man who worked for several years with renowned behaviorist B.F. Skinner.

The other was from a respected sociologist who's been published in the New York Times and the Los Angeles Times, and has published several books detailing anti-youth bias in the media.

What specific components of their criticism did you object to?

 

[eots]

so do you think is girl that is menstrual should have the the right to consent to sex...

 

[Cecilie1200]

What would you do in that situation, Cecile? Tell the kid 'don't worry, mommies here, and she'll be sure you have that baby'? You are pro life, are you not? Can I say that abortion would not be an option for you if your daughter fell pregnant?

A bit Sarah Palinish, don't you think?

Abortion is not an option for me, that is true. Realistically, I couldn't have stopped my daughter from having one when she was thirteen, because I don't believe the laws of my state allow for that. What would I have done in the highly unlikely event that my daughter had become pregnant at that age? I'd have worked out a plan where she, her father, and I took care of the baby while she attended school, with a secondary option on putting him up for adoption. We would also have discussed HOW she was going to attend school, since our local school district has a special school set aside for pregnant teens, rather than having them attend regular classes, and she might prefer homeschooling at that point, as my son does. We would also have had to discuss who the father was so that I could give some thought to dealing with him and his family.

I don't happen to consider "Sarah Palinish" to be an insult, so you're barking up the wrong tree if you think that is going to make me think your laissez faire, "I don't want to feel like the bad guy" approach is anything less than criminally negligent. I doubt Sarah Palin had to do much "advising" of her daughter at all, because I'm willing to bet Bristol learned everything she needed to know about the sanctity of life by watching her mother live it.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I would say murdering your baby is not a option,,but daddies here and you will make it through this together and its going to be all right

And the thing is, even if the parent in question DOES consider abortion an option, what I said still applies. Thirteen-year-old children do NOT come to their parents looking to be cheered on while they make the tough life decisions alone. They come to us for the answers. If that happens to be an answer, then it is. Mommy and Daddy are still the ones who are going to be stuck with the hard choices and the burden. It's in the job description.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Which is exactly why we do not need parental consent laws. Certainly not with attitudes like that.

Yes, any parent who doesn't agree with what YOU consider right and moral should lose any parental rights, because they have proven themselves abusive by not agreeing with the ultimate wisdom as revealed by you.

Tell me, did you have to take lessons to be so arrogant and conceited, or is it natural talent?

 

[Makedde]

Yes, any parent who doesn't agree with what YOU consider right and moral should lose any parental rights, because they have proven themselves abusive by not agreeing with the ultimate wisdom as revealed by you.

Tell me, did you have to take lessons to be so arrogant and conceited, or is it natural talent?

I simply do not believe parents have the right to force their daughters to carry a baby when that child does not want to. It is the child who is pregnant, not you, so IMO it would be unfair to make that decision for her.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I simply do not believe parents have the right to force their daughters to carry a baby when that child does not want to. It is the child who is pregnant, not you, so IMO it would be unfair to make that decision for her.

1) Spare me the "force" hyperbole, and I'm really tired of saying it. If you can't discuss this without emotional buzzwords, just tell me and I'll move on to someone who can.

2) Whether or not parents have the right to make decisions for their children is not a matter of belief. It's a matter of fact. They not only have the legal right to make decisions for their children, they have the legal responsibility and obligation to do so, and in some cases, can be prosecuted for NOT doing so.

3) The more you talk, the clearer it becomes that you are a) not a parent, and b) not really much of an adult, either. "Fair"? "Fair" is a kindergarten word with no real meaning outside of a playground. Is it "fair" that the parent is going to have to deal with the fallout of whatever the child does? Is it "fair", for that matter, for people like you, who don't have any children of your own, don't know MY child, and have absolutely no stake in what happens, think they need to come in and start lecturing others on what's best for their children? You don't think it's "fair" for the parent who's actually going to have to deal with the consequences to the child they actually know, raised, and love to even be NOTIFIED of what they're going to have to deal with, but you think it's "fair" for you, in your all-knowing wisdom and compassion, to push for laws cutting said parent out of the loop in the life of a child you've never laid eyes on, don't even know the name of, and can just blissfully walk away from once they've gotten the abortion you think is SOOOO important?

I think this bears repeating to virtually every ignorant, naive, immature post you put up on this subject: come talk to me when the child in question is a real, live person that you gave birth to, not some abstract, composite idea with no name and no consequences . . . at least, not any for YOU.

 

[Silence]

Abortion is not an option for me, that is true. Realistically, I couldn't have stopped my daughter from having one when she was thirteen, because I don't believe the laws of my state allow for that. What would I have done in the highly unlikely event that my daughter had become pregnant at that age? I'd have worked out a plan where she, her father, and I took care of the baby while she attended school, with a secondary option on putting him up for adoption. We would also have discussed HOW she was going to attend school, since our local school district has a special school set aside for pregnant teens, rather than having them attend regular classes, and she might prefer homeschooling at that point, as my son does. We would also have had to discuss who the father was so that I could give some thought to dealing with him and his family.

I don't happen to consider "Sarah Palinish" to be an insult, so you're barking up the wrong tree if you think that is going to make me think your laissez faire, "I don't want to feel like the bad guy" approach is anything less than criminally negligent. I doubt Sarah Palin had to do much "advising" of her daughter at all, because I'm willing to bet Bristol learned everything she needed to know about the sanctity of life by watching her mother live it.

I think it's wonderful that you would so willingly take the responsibility of helping her with the baby and I suspect if given that option most teenagers would choose to have the baby. But what if that wasn't she wanted? would you support her decision to terminate the pregnancy?

I had this conversation with my own daughter, who is 14, a few days ago. She said that if a teenager feels they are adult enough to have sex they should be adult enough to go to their parents and tell them if they get pregnant. She also said teenagers shouldn't be making medical decisions on their own but ultimately it should be the girls' choice to have the baby or not have the baby. I 100% agree with her on that.

 

[Agnapostate]

I think it's wonderful that you would so willingly take the responsibility of helping her with the baby and I suspect if given that option most teenagers would choose to have the baby. But what if that wasn't she wanted? would you support her decision to terminate the pregnancy?

I had this conversation with my own daughter, who is 14, a few days ago. She said that if a teenager feels they are adult enough to have sex they should be adult enough to go to their parents and tell them if they get pregnant. She also said teenagers shouldn't be making medical decisions on their own but ultimately it should be the girls' choice to have the baby or not have the baby. I 100% agree with her on that.

Of course, your entire position has been contradicted by scientific evidence, including a rebuttal of your own attempts to bring some to the table.

But by all means, carry on.

 

[AllieBaba]

I simply do not believe parents have the right to force their daughters to carry a baby when that child does not want to. It is the child who is pregnant, not you, so IMO it would be unfair to make that decision for her.

The child is under the care and protection of its parents. Children do not vote, they can't join the armed forces, they can't drive a car, and they sure as shirt don't direct their own medical care or even make decisions regarding braces.

So what makes you think they should have the final say when it comes to getting an abortion?

 

[Agnapostate]

The child is under the care and protection of its parents. Children do not vote, they can't join the armed forces, they can't drive a car, and they sure as shirt don't direct their own medical care or even make decisions regarding braces.

So what makes you think they should have the final say when it comes to getting an abortion?

Insufficient argument for those of us that believe that "children" ought to be permitted to engage in those other activities also.

 

[AllieBaba]

Oh that's right. Including sex.

You're a true hero.