Planned Parenthood Exposed - New Undercover Video

[Agnapostate]

why?

the linkage is well documented.

[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/uprjmoSMJ-o&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/uprjmoSMJ-o&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]

As is the link between the Church and the Inquisition.

The difference is that historical actions committed by the Church probably still have some relation to their present nature.

 

[Makedde]

And then you're going to have a hysterically frightened teenager on your hands.

How frightened would she be if I made her have an abortion?

 

[eots]

As is the link between the Church and the Inquisition.

The difference is that historical actions committed by the Church probably still have some relation to their present nature.

straw man..

 

[eots]

How frightened would she be if I made her have an abortion?

your lack of guidance and advice and leaving it up to planned parent hood would be as if you had...

 

[Agnapostate]

straw man..

As is the linking of contraception and eugenics.

 

[eots]

As is the linking of contraception and eugenics.

abortion is not contraception ,,,

 

[Agnapostate]

abortion is not contraception ,,,

Have you read the previous page?

 

[eots]

Have you read the previous page?

you mean your lame attempts to replace the word abortion with contraception in this debate

 

[Cecilie1200]

How frightened would she be if I made her have an abortion?

When did I ever suggest making anyone have an abortion?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Nobody makes women have child after child. THey choose that road. If they don't want to have child after child then they probably should be a little more picky about the type of sex they have.

But thanks for illustrating that it's the people who support abortion who have a problem with women choosing to have children.

I'm always flattered by the belief that I'm too damned stupid to control my sex drive and reproductive capabilities without the option of killing my children.

I know it shocks abortion supporters, but I've never even contemplated having an abortion, and I've also never had a child I didn't want to have. I also, for the record, only have two, with a third on the way, rather than the full baseball team they seem to think I would be squirting out without them and their precious "right".

 

[Cecilie1200]

Do you oppose all forms of contraception?

What makes you think Allie opposes ANY form of contraception?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Let me get this straight. If we support Roe V Wade, the law of the land, you equate that with supporting eugenics?

A bit of a stretch....................................but then the margins of this thread are blown anyway.

Yeah, you're on here babbling about contraception, and then complaining that people aren't sticking to the topic.

As for "bit of a stretch", one of the areas in which abortion receives the most public support in polls is that of aborting babies shown by tests to be carrying birth defects or handicaps such as Down's Syndrome, spina bifida, etc. In fact, amniocentesis came into regular usage through promotion by abortion supporters for precisely this purpose. Since eugenics is the study of selective human breeding to improve the race and for many people includes the idea that "defective" people be weeded out of the population, doesn't seem like much a stretch at all to me for Allie to consider abortion on demand related to eugenics.

 

[Makedde]

your lack of guidance and advice and leaving it up to planned parent hood would be as if you had...

What makes you think I wouldn't guide her? What makes you think I wouldn't advise her? I would do both - in allowing her to make the decision.

 

[Makedde]

When did I ever suggest making anyone have an abortion?

Would you prefer it if I were to force her to remain pregnant, even though she wanted a termination?

See, I call that child abuse.

 

[Silence]

Would you prefer it if I were to force her to remain pregnant, even though she wanted a termination?

See, I call that child abuse.

Funny thing, I don't see anyone saying anything about forcing "her" to remain pregnant. I see someone saying give her ALL the information.

What is wrong with advising a young girl of all the ramifications of both cases, keeping and terminating? Both have huge consequences to her life and if she's so mature why can't she hear both sides of the issue?

Aborting a baby is something that WILL stick with for the rest of her life, even if it's a decision she never comes to regret. Just as having a child too young will stick with her.

And this crap of abortion = contraception? there are women who use abortion this way and IMO that should be curtailed.

Here is how I PERSONALLY feel

A woman should be able to obtain an abortion up to 12 weeks without restriction.

After 12 weeks there should be medical circumstances which warrant termination and

After 24 weeks abortion should only be used in the case of severe deformity of the child and/or to IMMEDIATELY save the life of the mother

and after 32 weeks abortion should be used ONLY in the event that the child would be born with medical problems so catastrophic as to guarantee great suffering on the part of the child and/or certain death shortly after birth.

A women who has carried a child to 32 weeks should make EVERY effort to give birth to a LIVE child if that child is healthy and viable.

I also think that women who obtain abortions should be placed on MANDATORY birth control of some kind, one that they can't "forget" to take be it norplant or IUD or Depra Prevera. (off topic but I also think that should be required for women on welfare)

Now anga, I've seen you post these graphs and charts and whatnot but I'm here to tell you that NONE of that makes a bit of difference to someone who is MORALLY opposed to abortion. Just as they could post a chart showing you why abortion is bad and you'd dismiss it too.

Abortion is legal and should remain legal BUT, like guns, there SHOULD be restrictions because for the betterment of society it's the right thing to do.

One last point, the crux of the argument shouldn't be about how to make abortion more accessible, it should be about how to eliminate the need for abortion in the first place and the way to do that is through reducing unwanted pregnancy.

Making health care available affordable for all women (and men) and including contraception in that health plan would, IMO, go a long way towards that goal. and also teaching young people about having RESPONSIBLE sexual relationships BEFORE they have sex would also help.

 

[Agnapostate]

The difference is that I'm not arguing for or against abortion rights in this thread. I'm simply arguing that minor women ought to have the same access to it as adult women, without saying anything as to its wider legality here.

 

[Silence]

The difference is that I'm not arguing for or against abortion rights in this thread. I'm simply arguing that minor women ought to have the same access to it as adult women, without saying anything as to its wider legality here.

and I don't disagree with you on that issue, with parental consent OR at least a guardian who can guide this minor through the process.

Just allowing young girls to obtain abortion without their parents knowledge is both irresponsible and dangerous.

I thought my daughter made a brilliant point. She said if she were old enough to think herself responsible enough to have sex then she should be old enough to face the consequences of her actions, including telling me if she got pregnant.

What happens to the young girl who obtains an abortion and suffers from some kind of emotional breakdown from it? she becomes depressed, ashamed, even suicidal? If her parents don't know what has transpired they can't help her. Minors (and I'm not using the world children because you seem to find it so offensive) can't enter into contracts, they can't make legal decisions for themselves by law so why should they be able to undergo an invasive and sometimes dangerous medical procedure without their parents knowledge? Notice I'm not saying permission, I'm saying knowledge.

 

[Agnapostate]

I keep telling you that's not a sufficient argument against my position because I believe that they should be able to enter into contracts, including those of employment and finance, and should be able to make decisions for themselves about the law.

 

[Silence]

I keep telling you that's not a sufficient argument against my position because I believe that they should be able to enter into contracts, including those of employment and finance, and should be able to make decisions for themselves about the law.

well your argument isn't based on the LAW and until it is your argument just comes off as the rantings of lunatic who thinks that menstrating makes someone and adult.

and I'm so tired of you saying that's not a sufficient response. Who the fuck are YOU to tell anyone their response isn't sufficient? You quote graphs and charts and hinky websites to make your point and that's all fine and dandy but what you've seemingly failed to discuss is the EMOTIONAL aspect of being a child v. being an adult. A child can seem to be much more intelligent than the adults around them but until they've LIVED life, experienced life and learned to deal with LIFE they aren't adults in the emotional sense of the word. Hell sometimes people who are 40 years + aren't adults in the emotional sense of the word.

the age of 18 is an arbitrary number, I agree and actually not one I necessarily agree with...I think it should be 20, no longer a teenager. however, it's the one society has deemed acceptable for adulthood. and unless the law changes you're arguments for minors being treated equal to adults is pointless and not worth even considering.

 

[Agnapostate]

well your argument isn't based on the LAW and until it is your argument just comes off as the rantings of lunatic who thinks that menstrating makes someone and adult.

and I'm so tired of you saying that's not a sufficient response. Who the fuck are YOU to tell anyone their response isn't sufficient? You quote graphs and charts and hinky websites to make your point and that's all fine and dandy but what you've seemingly failed to discuss is the EMOTIONAL aspect of being a child v. being an adult. A child can seem to be much more intelligent than the adults around them but until they've LIVED life, experienced life and learned to deal with LIFE they aren't adults in the emotional sense of the word. Hell sometimes people who are 40 years + aren't adults in the emotional sense of the word.

the age of 18 is an arbitrary number, I agree and actually not one I necessarily agree with...I think it should be 20, no longer a teenager. however, it's the one society has deemed acceptable for adulthood. and unless the law changes you're arguments for minors being treated equal to adults is pointless and not worth even considering.

Actually, they still are rather worthy of considering.

I didn't claim that menarche made someone an adult in every aspect of the term, and that's a distortion on your part. I stated that it made someone a biological adult, but needed to be coupled with mental maturity. I then addressed the issue of mental maturity by posting several studies indicating that adolescent minors possessed the same rational capacity to offer informed consent to medical procedures that adults did, including abortion, as well as graphs indicating that formal operational thinking and intelligence peaked in the mid-teens.

Experience is undoubtedly an important component of rational decision making, but it's not absolutely necessary in the same regard that the capacity to make informed decisions is. If it was, we would have a scheme in which people gradually received greater adult rights at each decade. (When they turned 20, 30, 40, 50, etc.) More than that, I have also argued in this thread that the opportunity to obtain experience was deliberately withheld from minors, so that was not an especially commendable argument either.

Even in our current legal scheme of adolescent minors being placed into a state of forced dependency, I can still justify opposition to parental notification/consent laws from a utilitarian standpoint.

I'm an ethicist. By nature, I examine the ethical components of issues that others have already assumed to be true or rejected. And obscure as it might be, as a utilitarian, my primary means of judging the ethical value of one thing versus another is Jeremy Bentham's system of felicific calculus, outlined in his Introduction to the Principles of Morals and Legislation.

Now, going forward from that, I will say that as the lesser partner in the hierarchical chain of command, an adolescent minor has the capacity to suffer more from that chain of command than the parent on the other end does. You blather on about parents being financially responsible for their minor offspring, but really, what's the very slight potential of unjust financial inconvenience caused by the relatively rare occurrence of abortion complications versus the far more likely occurrence of hostility and possibly violence occurring between minor adolescents and their parents at the revelation of their pregnancy.