Philosophy forum

[JBeukema]

All I have done is state fact. Either refute or be silent.

Abrahamic religion in any form has never had any morality whatsoever is a FACT?

The Abrahamic religions have no source of morality

I find that Abrahamic- primarily Christian and neo christian- individuals oft tell far more than they realize. Take, for instance, a common argument used by many such theists to argue the 'goodness' of religion. This argument usually takes the form of 'how can one be good without god?', 'where do your morals come from?' or, perhaps most frighteningly, 'I cannot see people being good without god.'

What is so telling about these words? Well, basically, what these people are arguing is that they cannot imagine anyone being 'good' without god- more specifically, that they cannot see how anyone can be moral or upright without the fear of hell. Buddhists make a similar claim regarding Karma and reincarnation. Now, think about what they're saying here. They cannot see how anyone... including themselves... can be good... good being defined, as clear by the context as honest and not bringing harm... without fear of punishment.

Now, society has long recognized that some people will only be deterred from undesirable actions by the fear of punishment. This is why executions have historically been quite public and we in America make it well known that criminal behavior results in incarceration. However, most people will admit that such persons are a minority and that most people will try to be 'good' of their own accord, per their own conscience. Indeed, altruism is only natural, as it and the expectation of reciprocation have historically been good not only for the individual, but for humanity as a whole. For a more in-depth examination of these, do a Google search on the moral instinct.

These theists, however, make a different claim. Not only do they claim that such persons... persons who will only act in an acceptable matter if they fear a great enough punishment... are the majority, they claim that every single person is motivated to be good, honest, or altruistic purely out of fear of punishment if they are caught doing something wrong. Every person. Including themselves. Not only this, but most common forms of punishment are not enough o keep them in line. Fear of incarceration of even execution is not enough to keep these people in line. Only fear of an eternity of indescribable suffering is enough to motivate them,.


These people admit, through their arguments, that they are either amoral or immoral. For those not familiar with these terms, amorality is the lack of a personal sense of morality. Immorality describes one who acts without regard to morality, where amorality implies a total lack of a moral guide in the first place. Either of these scenarios should be quite frightening when one realizes that these non-moral individuals, who either lack altogether any moral guidelines or would not be limited by them anyway are the very people who seek to not only claim a moral high ground, but who would then seek to push their twisted views of their so-called morality... the mere law of an ancient culture, which is founded on no moral or ethical code, as we have just discussed, into the public arena to influence our own laws. They are also the ones who wish to see these views instilled in children.

This reality should be very unsettling to any thinking, rational person with a vested interest in their own well being or that of their children, their society, their nation, or humanity as a whole. Remember that the non-morality of theism has been seen in the past in the form of genocides, inquisitions, and witch burnings. This is not mere speculation or philosophy. The results of such twisted views have been seen time and again over the past six thousand years of theist influence. While we most oft encounter these arguments when dealing with Christians in the West, this same problem is seen manifest in all theistic religions that claim to take a sense of morality... indeed a misnomer, as they are unable to tell morality from mere law... from ancient texts and are willing to act I accordance to the alleged will of their delusions without regard to any sense of morality or ethics or any care for their fellow Man.

This is perhaps the biggest reason we must oppose theism and the thinking that oft accompanies it, if we are ever going to see the existence of a more just society.

 

[manifold]

I guess you never heard of the Ten Commandments.

 

[JBeukema]

I guess you never heard of the Ten Commandments.

Laws =/= morals.

The 10C are not a soure of morality. They are the beginning of the codified Moseanic law (which Christians reject as no longer applicable), which is enforced by penalty of the outer darkness (or, in later traditions, a lake of fire) as well as death by stoning. The 10C are no more a source of morality than the Arizona Revised Statutes or the federal tax law.

 

[manifold]

So now you're on about a "source" too huh.

Newsflash: Morality is a man-made concept. Therefore the source is mankind. That is why morality is subjective. That is why morality is not absolute. That is what makes the Ten Commandments a code of morality. If and how they are enforced is irrelevant to the fact that they are indeed a moral code of conduct.

 

[JBeukema]

Newsflash: Morality is a man-made concept. Therefore the source is mankind.

You have just agreed that
-moral absolutes do not exist
-objective moral values do not exist
-religion is not a source of morality
-the bible (including the 10C yoo cited earlier) is no source of morality



Congrats! You just refuted yourself and announced what I stated in the first place!

You're making progress.

That is why morality is subjective. That is why morality is not absolute. That is what makes the Ten Commandments a code of morality.

Then you go and contradict yourself. I had to take your gold star away. They are not a code of morality. Morality is wholly internal and arises from natural instinct and psychological complexes. The 10C are a code of ethics. See the quoted explanation in my earlier post.

If and how they are enforced is irrelevant to the fact that they are indeed a moral code of conduct.

They are not a moral code of conduct. They are an ethical code of law.

 

[manifold]

Wow!

Your artarde is truly frightening.

 

[JBeukema]

Don't get mad at me because you fail to comprehend the difference.

 

[manifold]

Oh I'm not mad. I feel sorry for you.

 

[JBeukema]

Anyone who takes their 'morality' from the bible is a piece of shit and should be locked away.

 

[manifold]

Locked away?

Boy aren't we the enlightened one.

 

[JBeukema]

Locked away?

Boy aren't we the enlightened one.

I'm not the one who calls for making girls marry their rapists, justifies homicide by saying the voices made me do it, espouses racial cleansing, wants disobedient kids stoned to death, supports slavery and the beating of slaves...

 

[manifold]

Me neither.

 

[JBeukema]

Me neither.

Good to know you're not a Christian, then.

 

[del]

Me neither.

jb is at least one taco short of the complete combo platter.

 

[manifold]

Me neither.

Good to know you're not a Christian, then.

Good to know I can add Christianity to the ever growing list of subjects you don't know shit about.

 

[JBeukema]

Me neither.

jb is at least one taco short of the complete combo platter.

You've never read your bible? Disobedience of these laws is sin.

 

[del]

Me neither.

jb is at least one taco short of the complete combo platter.

You've never read your bible? Disobedience of these laws is sin.

i don't own a bible.

go figure

 

[JBeukema]

Me neither.

Good to know you're not a Christian, then.

Good to know I can add Christianity to the ever growing list of subjects you don't know shit about.

Everything I just mentioned is in the bible, as I have shown repeatedly.

 

[manifold]

Good to know you're not a Christian, then.

Good to know I can add Christianity to the ever growing list of subjects you don't know shit about.

Everything I just mentioned is in the bible, as I have shown repeatedly.

So which Christian denomination advocates the stoning of disobedient children?

 

[JBeukema]

jb is at least one taco short of the complete combo platter.

You've never read your bible? Disobedience of these laws is sin.

i don't own a bible.

go figure

Get one and read it and you'll see just how terrible people jews and christians truly are to demand that a book ordering genocide and rape be the foundation of our society. These people are not to be trusted and they must not be allowed to continue to influence our or any other culture. Just look at the ME and the Dark Ages to see what happens when Abrahamists take hold of society and put the wil of their god into effect.