Phil Gramm and George Bush bankrupted America

[Chris]

It's amazing isn't it? Reagan and Bush were already responsible for 90% of the National Debt, and now Gramm's deregulation of the financial industry collapses the stock market. And yet they continue to spout this BS about being fiscal conservatives. People who vote Republican are dumb as a box of rocks.

 

[editec]

Things have to be in balance for capitalism to work properly.

Left to their own devices either party is apt to get things out of kilter.

We've moved so much in favor of capital, that labor (as examplified by the vanishing middle class) is in trouble.

Ironically, when the middle class starts to falter, the affluent find that their affluence is at risk because, contrary to the myth that the wealthy created their wealth, the workers are, the final analysis, the root source of all capital.

EXCEPT of course, when nitwits control the central banks which oversee how much capital is in the system.

Then fiat capital is thrust into the system which simply devalues all the existing capital which truly did represent the labor that created all goods and services.

 

[oreo]

It's amazing isn't it? Reagan and Bush were already responsible for 90% of the National Debt, and now Gramm's deregulation of the financial industry collapses the stock market. And yet they continue to spout this BS about being fiscal conservatives. People who vote Republican are dumb as a box of rocks.

It is DEMOCRATS who initially started Freddie Mac & Fannie Mae--to insure that lower income people & minorities could obtain loans for homeownership. THAT IS A FACT!

It is also a FACT--that these two agencies were run by democrat appointees.

These democrats paid themselves HUGE multi-million dollar bonus'es per year, while making certain the coffers of their buddies in congress were full, while they were running these agencies into the ground. One of them is Barack Obama. The second largest donor receipiant of these agencies. Two of the CFO's of these agencies were on Barack Obama's campaign committee. One, Reines--was charged with felony fraud & had to give back 25 million. However, he walked away with hundreds of millions from these agencies. Warning after warning was made to democrats in congress, each & every one were blocked by democrats on the hill.

John McCain is on the congressional record for another warning 3 years ago in 2005. Democrats along with Barack Obama ignored that one also.

Where are the hancuffs NOW? Democrats will not call for a full independant investigation of this financial mess--because THEY KNOW they will be exposed.

 

[Chris]

Blaming Freddie and Fannie for the collapse is like blaming a minor hit man for Al Capone. Deregulating the financial markets is what led to the collapse. It's all Phil Gramm's falt.

 

[HoleInTheVoid]

OK class, today's lesson is "Spamming the Foregone Conclusion".

This technique is a favorite of trolls. It is a 2-part technique.

The first part, which we will call "The Spear" as it is the point or premise of attack the troll wishes to make. It is composed of the wildest of generalization. The wilder, the better as the more deeply the spear is thrust forward the more likely some damage might occur.

The second part is called, "The Shield" and it is quickly raised after the spear thrust to defend the troll from all counters. It comes in the form of a blanket cover that all opponents of the premise are brainwashed, merely spinning or lack some personal attribute such as integrity or education so as to deflect critiques of spear into statements of the criticizer's person.

Here we see The Spear:

It's amazing isn't it? Reagan and Bush were already responsible for 90% of the National Debt, and now Gramm's deregulation of the financial industry collapses the stock market.

Notice how he gives the absolutely extreme and unsupportable 90% figure without any discussion of actual dollar amounts or reference to constitutional law and budgetary authority.

Next, The Shield:

And yet they continue to spout this BS about being fiscal conservatives. People who vote Republican are dumb as a box of rocks.

You see, the opponent can't possibly have a valid point, he is merely dumb as a box of rock and as such should be summarily discounted.

This same technique is repeated elsewhere by another poster, JimH52 in his thread: http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/58798-the-economic-disaster-and-9-11-a.html

Let's take a look, shall we?

This is the second disaster that has occured under a republican administration...

There's the spear.

And now for the shield:

but I am confident the GOP spin will blame both on the Democrats. Their spin talent is unlimited.

And there you have it class.

By taking time to note the techniques of trolls you too can avoid their mind-numbing demagogury.

 

[Chris]

Hole, you need to do a little more reading. If you click on the link below and go to the bottom where it says "Calculation Details", you can click on links that take you to the official Treasury website where you can calculate the numbers for yourself. Have fun!

ReaganBushDebt.org

 

[editec]

Nice analysis of this technique, Hole.

It can be particularly effective if the spear is true and the shield is as well, but still...good point.

FWIW, it is damned hard to post positions which are subtle in this venue.

One can try, of course, but it tends to take a lot of ascii, and inevitably one's point is easily misunderstood, or rewritten by people's ignorant assumptions about who you are, or picked to death by people whose only mission is to score pedants' points.

 

[oreo]

Blaming Freddie and Fannie for the collapse is like blaming a minor hit man for Al Capone. Deregulating the financial markets is what led to the collapse. It's all Phil Gramm's falt.

B.S--when you have a democrat lead congress APPOINTING DEMOCRATS AS CFO's-- that continually IGNORES warnings--regarding Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac--the problem starts there.

In fact, I listened to a 1995--recorded audio tape the other day. This when the CFO of Fannie Mae was talking to the DEMOCRAT black caucas of the United States senate. While he was promising untold amounts of money to minorities--he was also talking about the financial PROBLEMS these agencies were having.

1995 was when BILL CLINTON WAS IN OFFICE!

While the "messiah"--Barack Obama was the second largest donor receipiant of these two failed agencies--John McCain was warning the congress about their financial incoming TRAIN WRECK! They along with Barack Obama IGNORED IT again!

 

[Chris]

Sorry, oreo. The Democrats didn't waste $700 billion dollars occupying Iraq, and Phil Gramm is the one who snuck an ammendment into a spending bill and deregulated the banks.

Nice try, though.

 

[HoleInTheVoid]

Which branch of government is charged with writing spending bills?

What areas of federal spending are allowed under the Constitution and which are not?

What % of federal spending is NOT enumerated?

What % of the federal budget is deficit spending?

Do you rubes see where this is tracking?

 

[Chris]

Nice try at deflecting the blame on to someone else.

Gramm snuck the deregulation ammendment into an 11,000 page appropriations bill right before Christmas recess. Gramm created risk free mortgage lending, and Bush borrowed $700 billion dollars from the Chinese to fund the occupation of Iraq. These two men are responsible for the current crisis.

 

[Diuretic]

The golden goose has been well and truly opened up.

 

[JimH52]

6 years of unabated GOP rule has left the country in dire straights. Bush let the GOP congress get away with murder for 6 years, not vetoing a single spending bill The red ink has been flowing like never before.

 

[Chris]

6 years of unabated GOP rule has left the country in dire straights. Bush let the GOP congress get away with murder for 6 years, not vetoing a single spending bill The red ink has been flowing like never before.

The tax cut and borrow Republicans have bankrupted America, and these morons still want to vote for them.

They are idiots.

 

[Caligirl]

It's amazing isn't it? Reagan and Bush were already responsible for 90% of the National Debt, and now Gramm's deregulation of the financial industry collapses the stock market. And yet they continue to spout this BS about being fiscal conservatives. People who vote Republican are dumb as a box of rocks.

No, it's my fault. After some soul searching, really, it's the only thing that makes sense.

Blame me.

 

[HoleInTheVoid]

Nice try at deflecting the blame on to someone else.

Gramm snuck the deregulation ammendment into an 11,000 page appropriations bill right before Christmas recess. Gramm created risk free mortgage lending, and Bush borrowed $700 billion dollars from the Chinese to fund the occupation of Iraq. These two men are responsible for the current crisis.

I guess the answer is to stop writing 11,000 page funding bills; but the fact reamins Pritzker, Johnson, Goolsbee, Raines et al have advised Obama in multiple capacities after making millions.

And it's interesting how you spin the China thing. The US sells T-bills. They are for public sale; anyone can buy them. If you're worried about China have Obama's millionaire buddies give back the money they made fraudulantly.

 

[Chris]

I guess the answer is to stop writing 11,000 page funding bills; but the fact reamins Pritzker, Johnson, Goolsbee, Raines et al have advised Obama in multiple capacities after making millions.

And it's interesting how you spin the China thing. The US sells T-bills. They are for public sale; anyone can buy them. If you're worried about China have Obama's millionaire buddies give back the money they made fraudulantly.

Bush and Phil Gramm are responsible for this disaster.

The same thing happened in the 80's when the Republicans deregulated the Savings and Loans.

It is unbelievable the damage that Bush and Gramm have done to America.

 

[Gunny]

Bush and Phil Gramm are responsible for this disaster.

The same thing happened in the 80's when the Republicans deregulated the Savings and Loans.

It is unbelievable the damage that Bush and Gramm have done to America.

You're so full of shit. Unscrupulous lenders and stupid buyers and people living on credit and beyond their means are responsible.

And it damned sure isn't going to get fixed with blind partisan hacks like YOU doing nothing but trying to blame your political opponents.

This shit started before your dumb as was born more than likely, so do everyone a favor and STFU with your idiotic hatemongering.

 

[Chris]

You're so full of shit. Unscrupulous lenders and stupid buyers and people living on credit and beyond their means are responsible.

And it damned sure isn't going to get fixed with blind partisan hacks like YOU doing nothing but trying to blame your political opponents.

This shit started before your dumb as was born more than likely, so do everyone a favor and STFU with your idiotic hatemongering.

Hatemongering?

Yes, I hate the people who have destroyed the country I love. The people that are responsible for the deaths of 4,000 American young people and the wasting of $700 billion dollars of our resources for NO COMPELLING REASON. Yes, I hate those people.

 

[Shadow]

Bawk Bawk.. yes we can.. Bawk Bawk....