Personal Responsibility

[editec]

Civilization is a collective benefit relationship.

Absolutely nobody here on this board (or that any of us has ever met) is making it entirely on their own. That is impossible for any person living in any society of any type. They only way to do that is to find someplace completely remote, go there naked and live off the land. good luck with that.

What most of us are doing is making it on our own within the caccoon of the society which makes it possible for us to be productive within that society.

So the complaint that the conservatives have: that too many of us us are too dependent of this society, does have merit.

For one reason or the other, fewer and fewer or us seem to be able to contribute to this society in meaningful enough ways to make us worth our salt.

And the complaint that most liberals REALLY have, is that the benefits of being a functional member of this society are not being shared equally, and that is largely WHY fewer and fewer or us seem to be able to contribute to this society in meaningful enough ways to make us worth our salt.

Both complaints have some merit, I think.

Finding the solution to that growing trend is going to be THE problem for all societies (not just ours) to solve in the 21st century.

Consider that technology may very well make MOST people redundant in the not so distant future.

What happens when computer programs can write computer programs better than computer programers can?

When brain surgery is mechanical?

When a computer can give you better legal advise than most lawyers?

Think things like that can't happen?

Right, and mankind will never have more food than it needs, and mankind will never fly, or visit the moon...and certainly no computer program would ever beat the worlds grand chess master, either. Human intelligence is too special...poppycock.


Something very much redundancy by technocide has already happened to a huge number of people in this nation.

The average IQ is 100, folks.

Much of what somebody with a 100 IQ can do is going to be done by machines or programs, and that has happened, not in my lifetime, but just in the first half of my adulthood!

 

[Ravi]

Wanna bet? The policies you endorse play right into all those things.

The policies I endorse have little bearing on the one's that are enforced. I invite you to tour a country that has no social programs for the poor and report back on the crime rate and rampant disease.

 

[Bern80]

I'm responsible for the crime rate? I'm responsible for beggars? I'm responsible for communicable disease?

I don't think so.

You are slowly catching on.

 

[Bern80]

Civilization is a collective benefit relationship.

Absolutely nobody here on this board (or that any of us has ever met) is making it entirely on their own. That is impossible for any person living in any society of any type. They only way to do that is to find someplace completely remote, go there naked and live off the land. good luck with that.

You grossly underestimate man's survival instinct.

What most of us are doing is making it on our own within the caccoon of the society which makes it possible for us to be productive within that society.

So the complaint that the conservatives have: that too many of us us are too dependent of this society, does have merit.

that isn't what's being said. What is being said is people are too dependant on government. That's a little different than being in a society where we all benefit from each other.

And the complaint that most liberals REALLY have, is that the benefits of being a functional member of this society are not being shared equally, and that is largely WHY fewer and fewer or us seem to be able to contribute to this society in meaningful enough ways to make us worth our salt.

I laid out what I believe liberals believe about how people become rich. You can believe it or not, but conservatives like my father who started his own business as a Veternarian, eventually makeing into the six figure income scratch their head and go "why should I be sharing"? He isn't an extraordinary person. He was brought up well (which is one factor that is out of the control of some and can make things more diffcult), but he put in the study time to become one, he put in he effort of growing the business. So he has to ask, I was able to accomplish this, why is it so unreasonable to expect that most other's should be able to do the same?

 

[AllieBaba]

The policies I endorse have little bearing on the one's that are enforced. I invite you to tour a country that has no social programs for the poor and report back on the crime rate and rampant disease.

But the citizens in those countries are poor as well.

If you support free medical and cash grants to women who are unemployed, unmarried, and pregnant, then you are subsidizing the very behavior that gets them there...which means you are subsidizing irresponsible sex, and ultimately the spread of disease.

 

[Ravi]

But the citizens in those countries are poor as well.

If you support free medical and cash grants to women who are unemployed, unmarried, and pregnant, then you are subsidizing the very behavior that gets them there...which means you are subsidizing irresponsible sex, and ultimately the spread of disease.

Allie, I'm beginning to think you'd rather see the country in the toilet than to try to find solutions...just so you have the ability to look down your nose at liberal policies (none of which you actually have a grasp on).

 

[Shogun]

I don't recall you offering a single solution either, ravikins...


for instance, I've tossed around an idea or two about health care that could appeal to both sides... Why don't you try doing that instead of crying about baba?

 

[AllieBaba]

Allie, I'm beginning to think you'd rather see the country in the toilet than to try to find solutions...just so you have the ability to look down your nose at liberal policies (none of which you actually have a grasp on).

No, I don't think the country is in the toilet now, and I resent whiny cry-babies, who have never suffered a moment in their lives, who insist that it is.

And I know that policies which reward dangerous/unhealthy and immoral behavior are policies which will result in an increase in those very behaviors. So of course I'm not going to support them BECAUSE I KNOW THEY WON'T WORK.

I know personal responsibility works. I know people who actually contribute themselves are more effective than government-run programs which gobble up money, are not able to take individuals into account, and make the situation worse instead of better.

I'm beginning to think you only want the government to take care of things to save yourself from getting your hands dirty, or having to think about these issues in a personal way at all.

 

[DiamondDave]

Does this mean that the personal responsiblity argument does not apply to the universal healthcare debate since most people do not have the capacity to be their own physician?

Nice try

misdirection though

Try the fact that every able bodied and able minded person has the ability to earn and pay for things they need... including out of pocket healthcare or health insurance

 

[DiamondDave]

Civilization is a collective benefit relationship.

Absolutely nobody here on this board (or that any of us has ever met) is making it entirely on their own. That is impossible for any person living in any society of any type. They only way to do that is to find someplace completely remote, go there naked and live off the land. good luck with that.

What most of us are doing is making it on our own within the caccoon of the society which makes it possible for us to be productive within that society.

So the complaint that the conservatives have: that too many of us us are too dependent of this society, does have merit.

For one reason or the other, fewer and fewer or us seem to be able to contribute to this society in meaningful enough ways to make us worth our salt.

And the complaint that most liberals REALLY have, is that the benefits of being a functional member of this society are not being shared equally, and that is largely WHY fewer and fewer or us seem to be able to contribute to this society in meaningful enough ways to make us worth our salt.

Both complaints have some merit, I think.

Finding the solution to that growing trend is going to be THE problem for all societies (not just ours) to solve in the 21st century.

Consider that technology may very well make MOST people redundant in the not so distant future.

What happens when computer programs can write computer programs better than computer programers can?

When brain surgery is mechanical?

When a computer can give you better legal advise than most lawyers?

Think things like that can't happen?

Right, and mankind will never have more food than it needs, and mankind will never fly, or visit the moon...and certainly no computer program would ever beat the worlds grand chess master, either. Human intelligence is too special...poppycock.


Something very much redundancy by technocide has already happened to a huge number of people in this nation.

The average IQ is 100, folks.

Much of what somebody with a 100 IQ can do is going to be done by machines or programs, and that has happened, not in my lifetime, but just in the first half of my adulthood!

What you don't get about our civilization is a group of people combining efforts and benefiting freely from those efforts... not a bunch of lazy libs holding their hands out and expecting something at the expense of everyone else's labors...

You want "shared equally"? Start a hippy commune on a desert island, commie

 

[Gunny]

Personal responsibility can also mean paying your taxes, Bern. And having the expectation that what you pay contributes to the well being of the entire country. For instance, I am perfectly willing to give my fair share for the privilege of living in this country, having decent drinking water, a military to protect the country, a system of transportation that allows me to go anywhere...and all the other things we've all come to expect, including the absence of beggars on the street.

Though actually, that is inherently selfish of me, isn't it?

It IS selfish. It's being willing to impose your beliefs on others to the exclusion of theirs. It also has nothing to do with personal responsibility. Taxes are a levy by the government. That would make it a legal responsibility, not a personal one.

 

[Glori.B]

An oft stated political "value" that I see posted here repeatedly by self-professed conservative republicans is the importance of personal responsibility. As a concept, I happen to agree completely. However, the way this alleged "value" is used to debate specific issues comes across as a thinly veiled euphamism for the virtue of selfishness and the "every man for himself" mantra.

Does personal responsibility REALLY mean every man for himself?

i think of it more as carrying your own weight...not counting on someone else to carry it for you...but if i see someone who is truly unable to carry their own weight and i have the means to help them, that is also my burden to bear.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

An oft stated political "value" that I see posted here repeatedly by self-professed conservative republicans is the importance of personal responsibility. As a concept, I happen to agree completely. However, the way this alleged "value" is used to debate specific issues comes across as a thinly veiled euphamism for the virtue of selfishness and the "every man for himself" mantra.

Does personal responsibility REALLY mean every man for himself?

US Conservatives believe in conserving the founding principles of the United States; those principles were expressed in the US Declaration of Independence and they speak to natural law and the responsibility of each sovereign to fulfill the responsibilities inherent in the right to life endowed by their creator through his gift of life.

Now in essence the concept reads as follows:

By virtue of your life, you have a right to that life and to pursue the fulfillment of that life; that right comes with the responsibility to defend that right from unjustified usurpation of the means to exercise it and to defend that life from unjustified threat of death and bodily injury; as well as the responsibility to defend same in others within one's sphere of influence; now the authority on which that right rests is that of God himself, the ultimate authority in nature; thus one is always possessed by this right without regard to the unjustified application of power which might otherwise usurp the means to exercise that right; and it is the sacred duty of every sovereign to relentlessly defend that right for themselves and their neighbors on the bedrock authority on which that right rests, without regard for whatever power resists or contests that authority.

Now do you feel that this represents selfishness? If so, how so?

 

[midcan5]

Thread is so true. It could even be said the modern conservative is a tool of corporate power. Modern societies require a balancing act which the selfish cannot tolerate.

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." John Kenneth Galbraith

The Conservative Nanny State

A vote for John McCain is a vote against the fundamental principle of America, the right of the individual to lead their life privately without the government interfering.

 

[midcan5]

By virtue of your life, you have a right to that life and to pursue the fulfillment of that life; that right comes with the responsibility to defend that right from unjustified usurpation of the means to exercise it and to defend that life from unjustified threat of death and bodily injury; as well as the responsibility to defend same in others within one's sphere of influence; now the authority on which that right rests is that of God himself, the ultimate authority in nature; thus one is always possessed by this right without regard to the unjustified application of power which might otherwise usurp the means to exercise that right; and it is the sacred duty of every sovereign to relentlessly defend that right for themselves and their neighbors on the bedrock authority on which that right rests, without regard for whatever power resists or contests that authority.

Now do you feel that this represents selfishness? If so, how so?

To a hammer everything is a nail.

 

[editec]

I believe personal responsibility means being held responsibile for those thing over which you have some control.

Today hundreds, perhaps thousands of American workers are going to get their pink slips.

Some of them will be let go because they failed to perform their jobs well, and for that they can be held personally responsible.

But others of them will be let go because the business model is changing.

How are they personally responsible for that?

They are not.

Should we hold them peronally responsible for things entirely beyond their control?

Some of us think we ought to abandon them to their own devices, and some of us think that as a nation we owe it to our neighbors to help them through hard times for which the they cannot be held personally responsible.

 

[Gunny]

Thread is so true. It could even be said the modern conservative is a tool of corporate power. Modern societies require a balancing act which the selfish cannot tolerate.

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." John Kenneth Galbraith

The Conservative Nanny State

A vote for John McCain is a vote against the fundamental principle of America, the right of the individual to lead their life privately without the government interfering.

Just as it could be said the modern liberal is a tool .....

The modern liberal is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosohpy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

 

[Ravi]

I think the survival of the species encompasses personal responsibility (or maybe it's the other way around). Our species (for the purposes of this conversation American) can't survive without mutual cooperation. Therefore I have no problem helping the least in our society to thrive. How that is accomplished is, of course, open to debate.

 

[editec]

You grossly underestimate man's survival instinct.

Ah but we're not really talking about survival, are we?

We're talking about the lives most of us lead which are cacooned in this society which gives us many benefits that are the direct result of having a viable society lead by governments in various ways.

that isn't what's being said. What is being said is people are too dependant on government. That's a little different than being in a society where we all benefit from each other.

That's a fair point, I suppose. Now what percentage of us do you think depend on the government to support us?

I laid out what I believe liberals believe about how people become rich.You can believe it or not,

I doubt you're qualified to speak very coherently on what liberals believe.

but conservatives like my father who started his own business as a Veternarian,

One wonders how he paid his way though veternary school, of course...

eventually makeing into the six figure income scratch their head and go "why should I be sharing"?

A commonly heard opinion.

He isn't an extraordinary person. He was brought up well (which is one factor that is out of the control of some and can make things more diffcult), but he put in the study time to become one, he put in he effort of growing the business. So he has to ask, I was able to accomplish this, why is it so unreasonable to expect that most other's should be able to do the same?

Well I certainly can't fault anyone who made it in America complaining that taxes are too high.

I can question them, however, if they believe that the poor are responsible for their too high taxes.

If one looks at the budget (sans social security and medicade) one finds that a very small percentage of the money spent by government goes to poor people, and a very large percentage of it goes to very VERY ealthy people.

Given that the working class have already paid for their social security and medicade, one really has very little to complain about regarding those who collect on those.

So it appears that your complain is largely directed at welfare folks, which, I am informed, represent less than 3% of the governments spending.

 

[Bern80]

I believe personal responsibility means being held responsibile for those thing over which you have some control.

Today hundreds, perhaps thousands of American workers are going to get their pink slips.

Some of them will be let go because they failed to perform their jobs well, and for that they can be held personally responsible.

But others of them will be let go because the business model is changing.

How are they personally responsible for that?

They are not.

Should we hold them peronally responsible for things entirely beyond their control?

Accept it isn't entirely beyond their control. In fact it is ultimately mostly under their control. You ultimately choose how valuable or expendable you want to make yourself. To say that they don't have control is to say that they didn't have control over who they chose to work for in the first place. Of course, that isn't true. No one tells anyone in this country you must work for me and even if they did they still have the choice not to.