Permanent War?: Has The Military Industrial Complex Finally Achieved Its Goal?

[GoneBezerk]

So idiot, besides using a word a 13 year old uses on the playground....what your credentials regarding the threats out there, the US military, world history, etc?

FYI....you are talking to the wrong person to challenge, but you are an idiot.

Like I said, idiots like you cause millions of people to be killed with your standing by and watching strategy.

Russia, North Korea, China and Iran support your stupidity.

Saddam if alive would love your support too.

Yeah.... that was before we could blow up the fuckin' world at the push of a button, wasn't it? Maybe the "strong silent type" is what we need instead of the old standby... the nervous saber rattler.

Shut up you douchebag... you are making a fool of yourself.

 

[francoHFW]

"he's been completely ineffective economically and THAT'S a fact."

Has nothing to do with Pubs blocking EVERYTHING since 2/2010, fear mongering everything, and ruining any confidence people might have?

 

[BluePhantom]

"he's been completely ineffective economically and THAT'S a fact."

Has nothing to do with Pubs blocking EVERYTHING since 2/2010, fear mongering everything, and ruining any confidence people might have?

They were elected to block everything since 2010 douchebag, and don't even start about fear mongering........"Republicans want dirty air, dirty water, no police, no firemen"...stick the fear mongering argument straight up your ass pal....and nothing ruins consumer confidence like 9% unemployment my friend. Oh and might I point out how many bills have passed the House since 2010 that Harry Reid and the Democrats won't even bring up for debate let alone a vote? Who is blocking who again?

 

[Steelplate]

So idiot, besides using a word a 13 year old uses on the playground....what your credentials regarding the threats out there, the US military, world history, etc?

FYI....you are talking to the wrong person to challenge, but you are an idiot.

Like I said, idiots like you cause millions of people to be killed with your standing by and watching strategy.

Russia, North Korea, China and Iran support your stupidity.

Saddam if alive would love your support too.

Shut up you douchebag... you are making a fool of yourself.

Well I served in the military from 1983-1987.... I pay attention to the news, I read a lot.... what about you... what are your credentials? Let me guess... you are a CIA operative posting from an undisclosed location for truth, justice and the American way.

 

[francoHFW]

Sure. Pub "jobs bills" that all gut EPA and other regulations that protect people and the environment, and won't produce jobs for YEARS- while blocking all the real jobs bills they used to support in the past..

Jobs jobs jobs my butt, then go after collective bargaining, environmental laws, pandering to the greedy rich as always.
The hypocrisy and greed are too obvious to all but the dittoheads now.

 

[francoHFW]

The Republicans’ obstructionism would be slightly more bearable if they offered a better, or even reasonable, alternative to Mr. Obama’s ideas. But they don’t. Instead, GOP lawmakers trot out the same old nostrums: more tax cuts and less regulation for business, with no guarantee of job creation in return.[10/14]

Here’s the truth about the GOP’s Faux 15:

GOP’s Budget to End Medicare (GOP Budget for Fiscal Year 2012, H.Con.Res. 34) – Instead of creating jobs, this House GOP budget is estimated to destroy 1.7 million jobs by 2014, according to economist Mark Zandi; ends Medicare, increasing seniors’ health costs by more than $6,000 and throwing them on the mercy of the insurance companies; and protects tax breaks for Big Oil, millionaires and billionaires, and companies that ship jobs overseas.

Increasing Childhood Asthma Act (The Energy Tax Prevention Act, H.R. 910) – Instead of creating jobs, this bill weakens our ability to ensure clean air and a healthier environment for our children, by eliminating every tool that the EPA has to address serious public health threats from carbon pollution, including increased childhood asthma.

Adding Tolls To the Information Superhighway Act (Disapproval of FCC’s Net Neutrality Regulations, H.J.Res. 37) – Instead of creating jobs, this bill would destroy jobs by overturning FCC rule maintaining America’s open Internet; the open Internet has been the greatest engine for the U.S. economy, creating more than 3 million jobs and helping the 20,000 small businesses that operate on the Internet.

Dirty Water Act (Clean Water Cooperative Federalism Act, H.R. 2018) – Instead of creating jobs, this bill undermines the Clean Water Act, thereby undermining our economy; local economies around the country and millions of jobs in tourism, outdoor recreation and commercial fisheries depend on clean water and healthy fish and wildlife habitat.

Dirty Water Act Attempt 2 (The Reducing Regulatory Burdens Act, H.R. 872) – Instead of creating jobs, this bill attempts to overturn a decision of the Sixth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals that commercial pesticides are pollutants when used near or on waterways and would prevent protection of our waterways from toxic pesticide pollution by exempting pesticide applications from Clean Water Act permitting.

Big Bank Protection Act (Consumer Financial Protection and Soundness Improvement Act, H.R. 1315) – Instead of creating jobs, this bill weakens, delays, and erodes consumer protections that stop unfair, deceptive and abusive practices by financial institutions and ensure credit card, mortgage, student loan, and other financial transactions are more clear, transparent, and fair to all Americans.

The Outsourcers’ Bill of Rights (Protecting Jobs From Government Interference Act, H.R. 2587) – Instead of creating jobs, this bill would destroy American jobs – by making it easier for corporations to send American jobs overseas and weakening the rights of middle class workers – by allowing corporations to punish employees for exercising their rights to organize, demand better benefits and safer working conditions, and seek a full day’s pay for an honest day’s work.

Dirty Air Act Attempt 1 (Transparency in Regulatory Analysis of Impacts on the Nation Act, H.R. 2401) – Instead of creating jobs, this special-interest bill guts the Clean Air Act on behalf of the utility industry, even though utilities are the largest source of mercury pollution – a powerful neurotoxin that damages the development of children’s brains; utilities are also a key source of other toxic air pollutants and the bill is projected to result in 34,000 premature deaths and 120,000 aggravated asthma attacks.

Dirty Air Act Attempt 2 (Cement Sector Regulatory Relief Act, H.R. 2681) – Instead of creating jobs, this special-interest bill guts the Clean Air Act on behalf of the cement industry – even though the cement industry is the third largest source of mercury pollution; the cement industry is also a key source of other toxic air pollutants and the bill is projected to result in 10,000 premature deaths and 68,000 aggravated asthma attacks.

Dirty Air Act Attempt 3 (EPA Regulatory Relief Act, H.R. 2250) – Instead of creating jobs, this special-interest bill guts the Clean Air Act on behalf of industrial boilers – even though large industrial boilers are the second largest source of mercury pollution; industrial boilers are also a key source of other toxic air pollutants and the bill is projected to result in 20,000 premature deaths and 126,000 aggravated asthma attacks.

Coal Ash Protection Act (Coal Residuals Reuse and Management Act, H.R. 2273) – Instead of creating jobs, this special-interest bill endangers public health by preventing effective management of coal ash, even though coal ash contains significant quantities of heavy metals like arsenic, lead and selenium, and more than 65 sites in 26 states have been found where coal ash has contaminated the groundwater.

A Gift to Big Oil Act Attempt 1 (Restarting American Offshore Leasing Now Act, H.R. 1230) – This drill-only bill grants enormous, multinational energy companies access to the Gulf of Mexico with less oversight – rushing lease sales in the Gulf with unreasonable time limits and without proper environmental review.

A Gift to Big Oil Act Attempt 2 (Putting the Gulf of Mexico Back to Work Act, H.R. 1229) – This drill-only bill makes offshore drilling less safe, rushing the very processes that the National Commission on the Deepwater Horizon Oil Spill and Offshore Drilling found led to the BP disaster.

A Gift to Big Oil Act Attempt 3 (Reversing President Obama’s Offshore Moratorium Act, H.R. 1231) – This drill-only bill mandates the most sweeping expansion of offshore drilling in our nation’s history – making broad swaths of the Atlantic and Pacific Coasts open for leasing automatically.

A Gift to Big Oil Act Attempt 4 (The Jobs and Energy Permitting Act of 2011, H.R. 2021) – This drill-only bill repeals limitations on drilling for oil and gas that protect air quality – rushing through Clean Air permits for widespread oil and gas operations on the Outer Continental Shelf that could increase pollution and damage air quality in coastal states like California and Delaware.

A Gift to Big Oil Act Attempt 5 (North American-Made Energy Security Act, H.R. 1938) – This drill-only bill directs the President to expedite approval of the Keystone XL oil pipeline, which is controversial as it would carry oil from the Canadian tar sands to the Gulf Coast putting U.S. water supplies in the Plain states at risk.


GOP “Jobs” Bills: The Faux 15 | The Gavel
New York Times Editorial, “No Jobs Bill, and No Ideas” ... « By the Numbers: 294 Days of the Republican Do-Nothing Jobs Agenda. MYTHBUSTER: ...
www.democraticleader.gov/blog/?p=4533

 

[R.C. Christian]

This is the most honest question I'll ever ask you fine folks on this site: Don't you ever get tired of unending wars?

Even Ronald Reagan had regrets about the failures in his diplomacy in terms of Lebanon and Saudi Arabia and the lives lost there.

It's too bad the young people get to be fodder on these misadventures while the old politicians count their war profits.

 

[paulitician]

This is the most honest question I'll ever ask you fine folks on this site: Don't you ever get tired of unending wars?

Even Ronald Reagan had regrets about the failures in his diplomacy in terms of Lebanon and Saudi Arabia and the lives lost there.

It's too bad the young people get to be fodder on these misadventures while the old politicians count their war profits.

Unfortunately most Americans don't know anything but War. They were born & raised on it. Personally,i'm very tired of the unending Wars. But most Americans just aren't yet. It's very sad.

 

[Wiseacre]

This is the most honest question I'll ever ask you fine folks on this site: Don't you ever get tired of unending wars?

Even Ronald Reagan had regrets about the failures in his diplomacy in terms of Lebanon and Saudi Arabia and the lives lost there.

It's too bad the young people get to be fodder on these misadventures while the old politicians count their war profits.

Unfortunately most Americans don't know anything but War. They were born & raised on it. Personally,i'm very tired of the unending Wars. But most Americans just aren't yet. It's very sad.

Don't you believe it, most folks are totally fed up with foreign wars when we've got big problems here at home. Future presidents who start wars better have a damn good reason, like another big terrorist attack.

 

[paulitician]

This is the most honest question I'll ever ask you fine folks on this site: Don't you ever get tired of unending wars?

Even Ronald Reagan had regrets about the failures in his diplomacy in terms of Lebanon and Saudi Arabia and the lives lost there.

It's too bad the young people get to be fodder on these misadventures while the old politicians count their war profits.

Unfortunately most Americans don't know anything but War. They were born & raised on it. Personally,i'm very tired of the unending Wars. But most Americans just aren't yet. It's very sad.

Don't you believe it, most folks are totally fed up with foreign wars when we've got big problems here at home. Future presidents who start wars better have a damn good reason, like another big terrorist attack.

I wish i could agree with you but i'm just not seeing that yet. The Military Industrial Complex just keeps inventing those Boogeymen for Americans to fear. It's just one War after another. So how do we overcome the Military Industrial Complex? How do we break this cycle?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Unfortunately most Americans don't know anything but War. They were born & raised on it. Personally,i'm very tired of the unending Wars. But most Americans just aren't yet. It's very sad.

I believe a majority of Americans are tired of the endless wars; most are too frightened to speak out – fearful of ‘terrorism,’ fearful of being accused of being ‘soft on “terror,”’ ‘un-American,’ ‘anti-troop,’ and like non-sense.

It is indeed Orwellian.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Permanent War?: Has The Military Industrial Complex Finally Achieved Its Goal?

Yes, that’s the purpose of the ‘war on terror’ – to be forever at war and have a permanent ‘enemy.’ Hence the vilification of Islam and Muslims.

Ya cause after all it is a religion of "Peace". Never given us a reason to doubt it either, has it?

 

[zzzz]

The Military Industrial Complex(MIC) is alive and thriving. It drives itself and its objective is not patriotism, justice or to protect America, it is to make a profit. Look at the discussion now about the forced upcoming cuts because of the failure of the super committee. Do you really think the MIC will allow these cuts to be enacted? At the expense of all national programs including repairs to our own infrastructure the MIC will continue to absorb an increasing amount of our tax dollars. Eisenhower warned us about it but we have fallen into the abyss and it appears that we will never climb out of it till our economy crashes.

 

[editec]

I'm just interesting in hearing what others think about this question. It does seem to me that we are in a permanent state of War. I don't believe there are any Citizens left who actually remember a time when we weren't bombing and at War with someone. So,has the Military Industrial Complex finally achieved its goal of permanent War?

Take a look at American history....from day one it's been very rare that we are not at war with someone.

That's actually not true. You can start either from the Declaration of Independence or from the Constitution; I'm going to do the latter, but if you do the former add seven years of Revolutionary War. I'll include only declared wars plus the Civil War. A "declaration of war" need not bear that title or include that specific language; e.g. the Tonkin Gulf Resolution was a declaration of war, as were the Congressional resolutions authorizing war in Afghanistan and Iraq. Also, a war that was declared in any phase I have included significant military involvement before and after the "official" war, e.g. the Philippine war following the peace treaty with Spain and the Vietnam War prior to Tonkin Gulf. The Civil War was not a declared war but it was also our most costly in terms of casualties by far, so it has to be included.

Constitution ratified 1789 - 1812; peace 23 years

War of 1812 - 1814 war 2 years

1814-1846 peace 32 years

U.S. - Mexican War 1846-1848 war 2 years

1848-1861 peace 13 years

1861-1865 American Civil War war 4 years

1865-1898 peace 33 years

1898-1902 Spanish American War/Philippine War war 4 years

1902-1917 peace 15 years

1917-1918 World War I war 1 year

1918-1941 peace 23 years

1941-1945 World War II war 4 years

1945-1950 peace 5 years

1950-1953 Korean War war 3 years

1953-1957 peace 4 years

1957-1973 Vietnam War war 16 years

1973-1991 peace 18 years

1990-1991 Gulf War war 1 year

1991-2001 peace 10 years

2001-present Afghan war/Iraq war war 10 years (and counting)

Prior to World War II (including World War II iteslf): 139 years of peace, 17 years of war

After World War II: 47 years of peace, 30 years of war.

Prior to and during World War II, we were at war 11% of the time. After World War II, we have been at war 39% of the time. Becoming a superpower has more than tripled our tendency to be at war.

It remains to be seen whether we will have "perpetual war" as a result of the "War on Terror." If the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan actually do end soon without a new war starting (e.g. in Iran) then the answer will be no. But the problem of being a superpower remains significant in terms of war and peace.

I couldn't vote in the poll because I honestly don't know the answer.

Indian wars of suppression? Completely overlooked.

Miltiple PEACE KEEPING missions in Haiti? Completely Forgotten

Throw those kinds of events into that history and my guess is the percentage of time US troops were in harms way is more like 90% of our nation's existence.

Yes, America was and remains more or less in a permanent state of conflict with some nation, some people, or some if its own inhabitants.

The military Industrial complex exists, obviously.

Who the hell do we suppose supplies our military?

 

[BluePhantom]

The Republicans’ obstructionism would be slightly more bearable if they offered a better, or even reasonable, alternative to Mr. Obama’s ideas. But they don’t. Instead, GOP lawmakers trot out the same old nostrums: more tax cuts and less regulation for business, with no guarantee of job creation in return.[10/14]

Here’s the truth about the GOP’s Faux 15:

Are you seriously trying to refute me by copying propaganda directly from Nancy Pelosi's website?

 

[BluePhantom]

Indian wars of suppression? Completely overlooked.

Miltiple PEACE KEEPING missions in Haiti? Completely Forgotten

Throw those kinds of events into that history and my guess is the percentage of time US troops were in harms way is more like 90% of our nation's existence.

I actually researched it pretty extensively....when you include the things you mention it's about 97% of the time since Andrew Jackson that we are beating up on someone.


You can look at my research here if you wish:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/history/195040-are-republicans-really-the-war-mongers-the-numbers-say-no-2.html

 

[Dragon]

I mean...certainly you are not suggesting that over 100 years of conflict with the Native Americans is a "minor dustup" are you?

Depends. My Cherokee ancestors certainly didn't see it that way, but from the standpoint of the United States it was. It required no major commitment of forces, no declaration of war, casualties (on the U.S. side) were very light.

Before we ever declared independence, the Native Americans had already been decimated by smallpox (estimate is that 90-95% of pre-Columbian natives died of the disease, making it by far the worst plague in history -- the Black Death is a distant second at a mere 25-35% of Europeans wiped out). But for that, the conquest of the continent would have required a major war and might well have been impossible. But as it was -- minor dustup, yes.

 

[paulitician]

Unfortunately most Americans don't know anything but War. They were born & raised on it. Personally,i'm very tired of the unending Wars. But most Americans just aren't yet. It's very sad.

I believe a majority of Americans are tired of the endless wars; most are too frightened to speak out – fearful of ‘terrorism,’ fearful of being accused of being ‘soft on “terror,”’ ‘un-American,’ ‘anti-troop,’ and like non-sense.

It is indeed Orwellian.

Excellent point. Yes the many years of State-Run propaganda has created this Militarism mentality we see in most Americans Citizens today. If you dare speak out against the Military Industrial Complex,you are immediately smeared and labelled a 'Traitior.' The Militiary Industrial Complex has set it up this way. They've been working on these things for many many years. It is very sad. Thanks for the great reply.

 

[BluePhantom]

I mean...certainly you are not suggesting that over 100 years of conflict with the Native Americans is a "minor dustup" are you?

Depends. My Cherokee ancestors certainly didn't see it that way, but from the standpoint of the United States it was. It required no major commitment of forces, no declaration of war, casualties (on the U.S. side) were very light.

Before we ever declared independence, the Native Americans had already been decimated by smallpox (estimate is that 90-95% of pre-Columbian natives died of the disease, making it by far the worst plague in history -- the Black Death is a distant second at a mere 25-35% of Europeans wiped out). But for that, the conquest of the continent would have required a major war and might well have been impossible. But as it was -- minor dustup, yes.

Hmmm.....well I guess it depends on your definition, but the Second Seminole War for example lasted roughly 7 years, cost millions of dollars (which was considerable for the 1830s), roughly 30,000 american troops, at least 1,600 US military casualties. No one knows how many Seminole and civilian losses but we can assume at least as many as US military so I would figure at least 3,200 total casualties. I mean...that doesn't seem like a minor dustup to me. In your post you mentioned 1814 -1846 = 23 years of peace. I think the Second Seminole War from 1835 - 1842 contradicts the notion of peace.

http://www.flheritage.com/facts/history/seminole/wars.cfm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Seminole_War

 

[paulitician]

Does anyone on this Board right now remember a time when we weren't bombing & killing somewhere around the world? I think this is an interesting question.