Payroll Income vs. Capital Income

[saveliberty]

Several bits of misinformation in your post.

The "risk" is minimized because if he loses his investment he gets to deduct the loss from other gains. Only the initial investment is already taxed, any gain has not been taxed and will not be taxed until the gain is "realized," which makes the gain the equivalent of an unlimited tax deferred IRA with no penalty for withdrawal and a discounted tax rate when realized.

But it seems those special tax advantages are never enough for the greedy, they do not want to pay any tax ever on the gain while still being able to deduct any loss.

Its 15% tax rate, so he still loses 85%. You willing to take that type of risk?

People were taking "that type of risk" when the rate was much higher. The idea of a high capital gains rate was to discourage speculation and encourage investing for the long haul. It is speculation not tax rates that is killing our economy.

I brought it up first huh? Fail.

 

[saveliberty]

You couldn't have lost 50k in the stock market and not known you could deduct $3k per year until your full 50k has been deducted, so you are lying about losing 50k or you knew you were lying when you said you can only deduct 3k of your losses. Either way you are a liar.... Try reading that 3 or 4 times...just maybe you'll get it.

It was an example idiot.

Let's see....

50 divided by 3 is 17 tax years to recover a percentage, not $50k, unless you have offsetting profits.

 

[Full-Auto]

Capital is largely money that Warren has THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN TAXED.

He does not pay capital gains on the money he invests. He pays only on the returns over and above investment. The implication that the money is taxed twice is false.

So you are saying that the dividends are paid out before the company meets its tax obligation?

 

[Trajan]

The typical CON$erviNutzi half truth, whole lie.

You get to deduct $3,000 PER YEAR each and every year until the whole loss has been deducted.

And if you want to play that multiple taxed game as the money passes through multiple hands, the money was taxed before the consumer bought the products or services of the company that issued the stock grant on their profits. So essentially you are arguing that a dollar can only be taxed once no matter how many hands it passes through in its lifetime.

carry over is carry over, mentioning that doesn't help you at all, becasue the numbers they play with is so large, you willful ignoramus......see how that works?

at 3K a year even for someone like me who may have lost 50K lets see...how long would that take?


and money is not shit from unicorns asses, the tax burden of the co. I invest in, costs me dollars on the back end that would have been mine IF it were not taxed before it got me....try reading that 3 or 4 times...just maybe you'll get it.

I knew you'd figure out a way to be a jackass....*shrugs* its your nickel, well, 4.2 cents actually...

You couldn't have lost 50k in the stock market and not known you could deduct $3k per year until your full 50k has been deducted, so you are lying about losing 50k or you knew you were lying when you said you can only deduct 3k of your losses. Either way you are a liar.... Try reading that 3 or 4 times...just maybe you'll get it.

I never said I did , reading comprehension try it sometime.....here;

Reading Comprehension Connection: Home

and, what difference does it make btw? at 3K a year how long would that take doodles?

and in case you missed it I answered that misdirection of yours, one more time-

carry over is carry over, mentioning that doesn't help you at all, becasue the numbers they play with is so large, you willful ignoramus......see how that works?

 

[edthecynic]

and just to add some factoids.....( run Ed)



In the 70s, the top 1% paid approx. 20% all federal income taxes.

now?

The top 1% pay approx. 38%.


In 2007, according to the CBO the 1% paid approx. 28%, as individuals, compared to 15% for middle-income filers....

As always you use the most deliberately misleading numbers you can find. That is the tax on wages and REALIZED capital gains only. If someone's stock went up 10 million, not one penny of that 10 million is taxed if the stock is not sold.

This is the disclaimer the CBO puts on those numbers which you deliberately left out. As you can see, just about everything that can be counted as income for the lower classes are included but the biggest source of wealth for the top 20%, unrealized cap gains is excluded.

Source: Congressional Budget Office.
Notes: Income categories are defined by ranking all people by their comprehensive household income adjusted for household
size--that is, divided by the square root of the household's size. (A household consists of the people who share a housing
unit, regardless of their relationships.) Quintiles, or fifths, of the income distribution contain equal numbers of people.
Comprehensive household income equals pretax cash income plus income from other sources. Pretax cash income is
the sum of wages, salaries, self-employment income, rents, taxable and nontaxable interest, dividends, realized capital
gains, cash transfer payments, and retirement benefits plus taxes paid by businesses (corporate income taxes and the
employer's share of Social Security, Medicare, and federal unemployment insurance payroll taxes) and employee contri-
butions to 401(k) retirement plans. Other sources of income include all in-kind benefits (Medicare, Medicaid, employer-
paid health insurance premiums, food stamps, school lunches and breakfasts, housing assistance, and energy assis-
tance). Households with negative income are excluded from the lowest income category but are included in the totals.

As a result the top WAGE EARNERS pay the most taxes but the wealthiest people do not work for the common wage and their capital gains go mostly untaxed. Even your MessiahRushie admits it!

August 7, 2007
CALLER: And, you know, and the way our tax system works, we have an overly complex system, which in and of itself is a problem, but the way our tax system works and the way the tax laws are written, it's based on a few kind of like hinge numbers like adjusted gross income and taxable income, and while the soak the rich -- or however you choose to describe it -- really doesn't come down that way. It really comes down to much lower income levels.

RUSH: It does, exactly, and here's the dirty little secret if you ever to pull it off. It's hard. This is why most people don't understand the tax-the-rich business. You've got to structure your life so you have no "earned" income. I'm out of time. I'll explain that. There's a category called earned income versus other kinds of income. Earned income is what the income tax rate is on. That's how "the rich" do it. They don't have "earned" income.
END TRANSCRIPT

The Truth About Taxes
August 6, 2007
RUSH: I've told you before: the income tax is designed to keep people like his [Buffett's] secretary from becoming wealthy! There is no "wealth" tax. So this is a big misnomer. ...
But there's no tax on wealth. There is a tax on income, and the tax on income is designed to keep everybody who is not wealthy from getting there.

I'm talking about genuine wealth, not the way Democrats define "rich."

 

[starcraftzzz]

This is nothing new but cannot be emphasized enough. The President and his Buffet Rule Mantra conveniently leave the distinction out of the debate. It is important for American people to realize that Warren Buffet's secretary is taxed more than Warren Buffet because his secretary's tax rate is largely based on her salary where has Warren himself is taxed at a lower rate BECAUSE all of his income is from Capital Gains, which is a lower rate. WHY is it a lower rate? Because it is a gain from capital invested by Warren. Capital is largely money that Warren has THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN TAXED.

Um no the proceeds of his capital gains have not been taxed.

This is all designed to increase taxes, salary and captial gains, to higher rates. This is being sold to the American people under the guise of "fairness" as the millionaires will now pay their share. But, Americans should think twice; in particular, Seniors living in retirement off the Capital Gains from their investments. Think Seniors are eager to pay 25% vs. 15% on income??

Um no because the capital gains taxes would only apply to rich people of which the vast majority of seniors are not effected. Furthermore how you republicans think poor people paying more taxes then billionaires is fair is just more evidence that you're idiot and tools.
Nice try at lying though

 

[starcraftzzz]

This is nothing new but cannot be emphasized enough. The President and his Buffet Rule Mantra conveniently leave the distinction out of the debate. It is important for American people to realize that Warren Buffet's secretary is taxed more than Warren Buffet because his secretary's tax rate is largely based on her salary where has Warren himself is taxed at a lower rate BECAUSE all of his income is from Capital Gains, which is a lower rate. WHY is it a lower rate? Because it is a gain from capital invested by Warren. Capital is largely money that Warren has THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN TAXED. He is risking it to invest in other companies. If the gets a positive return, he is taxed but not taxed as high as the rate of the salary he pays his secretary, other employees, or himself (if he pays himself a salary).

This is all designed to increase taxes, salary and captial gains, to higher rates. This is being sold to the American people under the guise of "fairness" as the millionaires will now pay their share. But, Americans should think twice; in particular, Seniors living in retirement off the Capital Gains from their investments. Think Seniors are eager to pay 25% vs. 15% on income??

If a investor loses money it is a capital loss too. That goes to adjusted income. Income should be income. It should be taxed as income. If you live on investments(capital gain or intrest) and make 100,000 dollars a year you should be taxed in the income bracket for 100,000 dollars.

I am not suggesting that capital gains tax rates be eliminated......just that they (at least) stay the same. You want any and all income to be taxed the same. What impact will that have on Capital markets? Are people going to invest more, hold their money, or seek alternative investments (foreign) where they are protected from a high capital gains tax rate in the US? Some of the wealthiest elite who will be taking this path bear the names of Kennedy, Pelosi, Kerry......and, they should.

Capital is not a bad word. When it comes to Capital tax rates, I subscribe to JFK's notion that these should be kept low so that a "a rising tide can be created to raise all ships." Economic policies rooted in envy along with elite-led specious promises of equal redistribution for all only serve to accomplish two things:
1) Entrench the Elite
2) Eliminate The Middle Class

Yes because trickle down has worked so well... wait no it hasn't. Plz enter reality.

 

[Trajan]

capital gains go mostly untaxed.

my god you're an imbecile, I knew that going in, so this is on me....more wasted time....

Oh now I am supposed to listen to Limbaugh, you hackasaurus ... being you must be a full time job...

 

[saveliberty]

As always you use the most deliberately misleading numbers you can find. That is the tax on wages and REALIZED capital gains only. If someone's stock went up 10 million, not one penny of that 10 million is taxed if the stock is not sold.

This is the disclaimer the CBO puts on those numbers which you deliberately left out. As you can see, just about everything that can be counted as income for the lower classes are included but the biggest source of wealth for the top 20%, unrealized cap gains is excluded.

So you want unrealized gains taxed now idiot boy? Won't that create short term investing and by your own statement, "speculation" which kills jobs and hurts the economy?

 

[starcraftzzz]

You couldn't have lost 50k in the stock market and not known you could deduct $3k per year until your full 50k has been deducted, so you are lying about losing 50k or you knew you were lying when you said you can only deduct 3k of your losses. Either way you are a liar.... Try reading that 3 or 4 times...just maybe you'll get it.

It was an example idiot.

Let's see....

50 divided by 3 is 17 tax years to recover a percentage, not $50k, unless you have offsetting profits.

It was an example that proved you have no idea what you are talking about

 

[saveliberty]

You couldn't have lost 50k in the stock market and not known you could deduct $3k per year until your full 50k has been deducted, so you are lying about losing 50k or you knew you were lying when you said you can only deduct 3k of your losses. Either way you are a liar.... Try reading that 3 or 4 times...just maybe you'll get it.

It was an example idiot.

Let's see....

50 divided by 3 is 17 tax years to recover a percentage, not $50k, unless you have offsetting profits.

It was an example that proved you have no idea what you are talking about

Disprove thing one in my above post.

 

[Trajan]

Capital is largely money that Warren has THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN TAXED.

He does not pay capital gains on the money he invests. He pays only on the returns over and above investment. The implication that the money is taxed twice is false.

So you are saying that the dividends are paid out before the company meets its tax obligation?

what ed and the others don't get is they are confusing whats called tax incidence with the tax burden.....( I know I just blew eds mind...)

Income from businesses' is in the end always passed thru to the owner(s), if you ignore biz tax liability you create the presumption that the evil scummy rich pay less than they do…hello.

If that’s so, lets raise the corp. tax rate to 90% and cut cap gains to zero and presto they aren’t paying anything….right?

 

[saveliberty]

Just announced, Obama's effective tax rate was 20% in 2011. That is all.

 

[edthecynic]

Oh AND if any investment goes south no matter the amount of loss, you only get to write off $3000.00.

that deduction is maxxed 3K isn't it?

carry over is carry over, mentioning that doesn't help you at all, becasue the numbers they play with is so large, you willful ignoramus......see how that works?

at 3K a year even for someone like me who may have lost 50K lets see...how long would that take?


and money is not shit from unicorns asses, the tax burden of the co. I invest in, costs me dollars on the back end that would have been mine IF it were not taxed before it got me....try reading that 3 or 4 times...just maybe you'll get it.

I knew you'd figure out a way to be a jackass....*shrugs* its your nickel, well, 4.2 cents actually...

You couldn't have lost 50k in the stock market and not known you could deduct $3k per year until your full 50k has been deducted, so you are lying about losing 50k or you knew you were lying when you said you can only deduct 3k of your losses. Either way you are a liar.... Try reading that 3 or 4 times...just maybe you'll get it.

I never said I did , reading comprehension try it sometime.....here;

Reading Comprehension Connection: Home

and, what difference does it make btw? at 3K a year how long would that take doodles?

and in case you missed it I answered that misdirection of yours, one more time-

carry over is carry over, mentioning that doesn't help you at all, becasue the numbers they play with is so large, you willful ignoramus......see how that works?

Caught lying about being LIMITED to deducting "ONLY" 3k, you stoop to your typical pompous condescension to deflect from your repeated lie.
Thank you.

 

[saveliberty]

Caught lying about being LIMITED to deducting "ONLY" 3k, you stoop to your typical pompous condescension to deflect from your repeated lie.
Thank you.

If your capital losses exceed your capital gains, the amount of the excess loss that can be claimed is the lesser of $3,000, ($1,500 if you are married filing separately) or your total net loss as shown on line 16 of the Form 1040 Schedule D, Capital Gains and Losses. If your net capital loss is more than this limit, you can carry the loss forward to later years. Use the Capital Loss Carryover Worksheet in Publication 550, to figure the amount carried forward.

Tax Topics - Topic 409 Capital Gains and Losses

Here you go idiot.

 

[edthecynic]

As always you use the most deliberately misleading numbers you can find. That is the tax on wages and REALIZED capital gains only. If someone's stock went up 10 million, not one penny of that 10 million is taxed if the stock is not sold.

This is the disclaimer the CBO puts on those numbers which you deliberately left out. As you can see, just about everything that can be counted as income for the lower classes are included but the biggest source of wealth for the top 20%, unrealized cap gains is excluded.

So you want unrealized gains taxed now idiot boy? Won't that create short term investing and by your own statement, "speculation" which kills jobs and hurts the economy?

Again you can't deny that the chart posted is deliberately misleading because it only considers the taxes on wages and REALIZED cap gains, you then create a Straw Man out of the fact that I pointed out that the tax percents did not include the increase in wealth from unrealized cap gains, the predominant income of the truly wealthy. Nowhere did I call for the unrealized cap gains to be taxed, I only pointed out that failure to include it in the calculations skews the results making it appear that the wealthy are paying a higher rate than they actually are.

 

[edthecynic]

Caught lying about being LIMITED to deducting "ONLY" 3k, you stoop to your typical pompous condescension to deflect from your repeated lie.
Thank you.

If your capital losses exceed your capital gains, the amount of the excess loss that can be claimed is the lesser of $3,000, ($1,500 if you are married filing separately) or your total net loss as shown on line 16 of the Form 1040 Schedule D, Capital Gains and Losses. If your net capital loss is more than this limit, you can carry the loss forward to later years. Use the Capital Loss Carryover Worksheet in Publication 550, to figure the amount carried forward.

Tax Topics - Topic 409 Capital Gains and Losses

Here you go idiot.

Thank you for confirming that you are not limited to deducting ONLY 3k no matter how big your loss.

Originally Posted by Trajan Oh AND if any investment goes south no matter the amount of loss, you only get to write off $3000.00.

 

[saveliberty]

As always you use the most deliberately misleading numbers you can find. That is the tax on wages and REALIZED capital gains only. If someone's stock went up 10 million, not one penny of that 10 million is taxed if the stock is not sold.

This is the disclaimer the CBO puts on those numbers which you deliberately left out. As you can see, just about everything that can be counted as income for the lower classes are included but the biggest source of wealth for the top 20%, unrealized cap gains is excluded.

So you want unrealized gains taxed now idiot boy? Won't that create short term investing and by your own statement, "speculation" which kills jobs and hurts the economy?

Again you can't deny that the chart posted is deliberately misleading because it only considers the taxes on wages and REALIZED cap gains, you then create a Straw Man out of the fact that I pointed out that the tax percents did not include the increase in wealth from unrealized cap gains, the predominant income of the truly wealthy. Nowhere did I call for the unrealized cap gains to be taxed, I only pointed out that failure to include it in the calculations skews the results making it appear that the wealthy are paying a higher rate than they actually are.

Your lack of understanding in regards to what is income is not my problem.

 

[saveliberty]

Caught lying about being LIMITED to deducting "ONLY" 3k, you stoop to your typical pompous condescension to deflect from your repeated lie.
Thank you.

If your capital losses exceed your capital gains, the amount of the excess loss that can be claimed is the lesser of $3,000, ($1,500 if you are married filing separately) or your total net loss as shown on line 16 of the Form 1040 Schedule D, Capital Gains and Losses. If your net capital loss is more than this limit, you can carry the loss forward to later years. Use the Capital Loss Carryover Worksheet in Publication 550, to figure the amount carried forward.

Tax Topics - Topic 409 Capital Gains and Losses

Here you go idiot.

Thank you for confirming that you are not limited to deducting ONLY 3k no matter how big your loss.

Originally Posted by Trajan Oh AND if any investment goes south no matter the amount of loss, you only get to write off $3000.00.

Your reading comprehension truly sucks Ed. Try again.

 

[Trajan]

Oh AND if any investment goes south no matter the amount of loss, you only get to write off $3000.00.

that deduction is maxxed 3K isn't it?

I never said I did , reading comprehension try it sometime.....here;

Reading Comprehension Connection: Home

and, what difference does it make btw? at 3K a year how long would that take doodles?

and in case you missed it I answered that misdirection of yours, one more time-

carry over is carry over, mentioning that doesn't help you at all, becasue the numbers they play with is so large, you willful ignoramus......see how that works?

Caught lying about being LIMITED to deducting "ONLY" 3k, you stoop to your typical pompous condescension to deflect from your repeated lie.
Thank you.

asked and answered you buffoon, instead of trying to catch me in something I already explained, you should read whats being written here and learn.....you are now engaged in trying to salvage your usual slobbering wreck of partisan mish mash instead of trying to have an honest conversation......

you are also scrambling the supposedly contradictory statements you are trying to make it appear I made, with your attempt to frame them both as such ( ala I never said I lost 50k etc etc )...you're wasting time, I said I didn't mention carry over initially and why....you're not helping yourself jesus christ wipe your chin, put your big boy pants on and take your thorazine.