Payroll Income vs. Capital Income

[Dragon]

So Buffet should stop investing and the economy will grow. Good to know.

He should invest in things that actually creates jobs. Not all investment does.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

This is nothing new but cannot be emphasized enough. The President and his Buffet Rule Mantra conveniently leave the distinction out of the debate. It is important for American people to realize that Warren Buffet's secretary is taxed more than Warren Buffet because his secretary's tax rate is largely based on her salary where has Warren himself is taxed at a lower rate BECAUSE all of his income is from Capital Gains, which is a lower rate. WHY is it a lower rate? Because it is a gain from capital invested by Warren. Capital is largely money that Warren has THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN TAXED. He is risking it to invest in other companies. If the gets a positive return, he is taxed but not taxed as high as the rate of the salary he pays his secretary, other employees, or himself (if he pays himself a salary).

This is all designed to increase taxes, salary and captial gains, to higher rates. This is being sold to the American people under the guise of "fairness" as the millionaires will now pay their share. But, Americans should think twice; in particular, Seniors living in retirement off the Capital Gains from their investments. Think Seniors are eager to pay 25% vs. 15% on income??

If a investor loses money it is a capital loss too. That goes to adjusted income. Income should be income. It should be taxed as income. If you live on investments(capital gain or intrest) and make 100,000 dollars a year you should be taxed in the income bracket for 100,000 dollars.

No it shouldn't because some of those gains come at the expense of entrepreneurs, business owners who have taken huge risks with their own money.

 

[saveliberty]

So Buffet should stop investing and the economy will grow. Good to know.

He should invest in things that actually creates jobs. Not all investment does.

So you want more money from him AND tell him what to invest in. Nice. Idiot.

 

[edthecynic]

Speculation creates

Speculation creates jobs which expands the economy. Taxes are simply lost capital.

Speculation artificially jacks up prices and inflated prices costs jobs and kills the economy.

So Buffet should stop investing and the economy will grow. Good to know. Idiot.

Buffett does not flip his investments in the short term like a speculator, he invests for the long haul. You knew that already but were just desperate for a Straw Man.
Thank you.

 

[Trajan]

Capital is largely money that Warren has THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN TAXED.

He does not pay capital gains on the money he invests. He pays only on the returns over and above investment. The implication that the money is taxed twice is false.

jesus christ..


here lets take little ole me, we just did our taxes and my wife had some stock grants via restricted stock options ( RSU's) which had vested,so, they are now her property.


here is the tax we paid, up front, to take possession of every share-



Federal 25.00
Medicare 1.45
Social sec. 4.20
Cali. State 10.23
Cali state disability ins. 1.20

Total= 42.08%


now, if we sell the share or shares of stock, we pay a cap gain rate of 15% on ever penny of gain as well as you inferred....... we paid tax on the RSU grant price of $60 a share as shown above, and we hold on it and wait, and it hits say $80, we pay another 15% tax rate on the $20 ( if thats the rate at the time) when we actually sell it. see how that works?


Now , in order for the co. to make that stock grant they made a profit where in they paid the corp. tax rate of 35% when the closed their books for the year.

A portion of the proceeds, of the after tax income/profit for that co. was then provided via RSU's to its employees...


so tell me , how many times was that money taxed before he/we actually got to realize it?


Oh AND if any investment goes south no matter the amount of loss, you only get to write off $3000.00.

 

[Trajan]

So Buffet should stop investing and the economy will grow. Good to know.

He should invest in things that actually creates jobs. Not all investment does.

uhm, I see.


so, what does he invest in that does not create jobs and what does he invest in that does......?

 

[Trajan]

This is nothing new but cannot be emphasized enough. The President and his Buffet Rule Mantra conveniently leave the distinction out of the debate. It is important for American people to realize that Warren Buffet's secretary is taxed more than Warren Buffet because his secretary's tax rate is largely based on her salary where has Warren himself is taxed at a lower rate BECAUSE all of his income is from Capital Gains, which is a lower rate. WHY is it a lower rate? Because it is a gain from capital invested by Warren. Capital is largely money that Warren has THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN TAXED. He is risking it to invest in other companies. If the gets a positive return, he is taxed but not taxed as high as the rate of the salary he pays his secretary, other employees, or himself (if he pays himself a salary).

This is all designed to increase taxes, salary and captial gains, to higher rates. This is being sold to the American people under the guise of "fairness" as the millionaires will now pay their share. But, Americans should think twice; in particular, Seniors living in retirement off the Capital Gains from their investments. Think Seniors are eager to pay 25% vs. 15% on income??

Several bits of misinformation in your post.

The "risk" is minimized because if he loses his investment he gets to deduct the loss from other gains. Only the initial investment is already taxed, any gain has not been taxed and will not be taxed until the gain is "realized," which makes the gain the equivalent of an unlimited tax deferred IRA with no penalty for withdrawal and a discounted tax rate when realized.

But it seems those special tax advantages are never enough for the greedy, they do not want to pay any tax ever on the gain while still being able to deduct any loss.

that deduction is maxxed 3K isn't it?

 

[edthecynic]

Capital is largely money that Warren has THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN TAXED.

He does not pay capital gains on the money he invests. He pays only on the returns over and above investment. The implication that the money is taxed twice is false.

jesus christ..


here lets take little ole me, we just did our taxes and my wife had some stock grants via restricted stock options ( RSU's) which had vested,so, they are now her property.


here is the tax we paid, up front, to take possession of every share-



Federal 25.00
Medicare 1.45
Social sec. 4.20
Cali. State 10.23
Cali state disability ins. 1.20

Total= 42.08%


now, if we sell the share or shares of stock, we pay a cap gain rate of 15% on ever penny of gain as well as you inferred....... we paid tax on the RSU grant price of $60 a share as shown above, and we hold on it and wait, and it hits say $80, we pay another 15% tax rate on the $20 ( if thats the rate at the time) when we actually sell it. see how that works?


Now , in order for the co. to make that stock grant they made a profit where in they paid the corp. tax rate of 35% when the closed their books for the year.

A portion of the proceeds, of the after tax income/profit for that co. was then provided via RSU's to its employees...


so tell me , how many times was that money taxed before he/we actually got to realize it?


Oh AND if any investment goes south no matter the amount of loss, you only get to write off $3000.00.

The typical CON$erviNutzi half truth, whole lie.

You get to deduct $3,000 PER YEAR each and every year until the whole loss has been deducted.

And if you want to play that multiple taxed game as the money passes through multiple hands, the money was taxed before the consumer bought the products or services of the company that issued the stock grant on their profits. So essentially you are arguing that a dollar can only be taxed once no matter how many hands it passes through in its lifetime.

 

[edthecynic]

This is nothing new but cannot be emphasized enough. The President and his Buffet Rule Mantra conveniently leave the distinction out of the debate. It is important for American people to realize that Warren Buffet's secretary is taxed more than Warren Buffet because his secretary's tax rate is largely based on her salary where has Warren himself is taxed at a lower rate BECAUSE all of his income is from Capital Gains, which is a lower rate. WHY is it a lower rate? Because it is a gain from capital invested by Warren. Capital is largely money that Warren has THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN TAXED. He is risking it to invest in other companies. If the gets a positive return, he is taxed but not taxed as high as the rate of the salary he pays his secretary, other employees, or himself (if he pays himself a salary).

This is all designed to increase taxes, salary and captial gains, to higher rates. This is being sold to the American people under the guise of "fairness" as the millionaires will now pay their share. But, Americans should think twice; in particular, Seniors living in retirement off the Capital Gains from their investments. Think Seniors are eager to pay 25% vs. 15% on income??

Several bits of misinformation in your post.

The "risk" is minimized because if he loses his investment he gets to deduct the loss from other gains. Only the initial investment is already taxed, any gain has not been taxed and will not be taxed until the gain is "realized," which makes the gain the equivalent of an unlimited tax deferred IRA with no penalty for withdrawal and a discounted tax rate when realized.

But it seems those special tax advantages are never enough for the greedy, they do not want to pay any tax ever on the gain while still being able to deduct any loss.

that deduction is maxxed 3K isn't it?

PER YEAR for as many years it takes to deduct the full amount.

 

[SniperFire]

The idea of a high capital gains rate was to discourage speculation and encourage investing for the long haul

Who told you that? Here I thought it was greedy fucking collectivists confiscating the other guy's stuff which they didn't feel the successful person deserved.

 

[saveliberty]

Speculation artificially jacks up prices and inflated prices costs jobs and kills the economy.

So Buffet should stop investing and the economy will grow. Good to know. Idiot.

Buffett does not flip his investments in the short term like a speculator, he invests for the long haul. You knew that already but were just desperate for a Straw Man.
Thank you.

First you call Buffet's investments speculation and now they're not? Caught in your own lie I see. If you had an ounce of honesty you would admit Buffet couldn't possibly use his losses during his lifetime. Long term investing sounds like job creation. Care to fuss up to that?

 

[LeftofLeft]

This is nothing new but cannot be emphasized enough. The President and his Buffet Rule Mantra conveniently leave the distinction out of the debate. It is important for American people to realize that Warren Buffet's secretary is taxed more than Warren Buffet because his secretary's tax rate is largely based on her salary where has Warren himself is taxed at a lower rate BECAUSE all of his income is from Capital Gains, which is a lower rate. WHY is it a lower rate? Because it is a gain from capital invested by Warren. Capital is largely money that Warren has THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN TAXED. He is risking it to invest in other companies. If the gets a positive return, he is taxed but not taxed as high as the rate of the salary he pays his secretary, other employees, or himself (if he pays himself a salary).

This is all designed to increase taxes, salary and captial gains, to higher rates. This is being sold to the American people under the guise of "fairness" as the millionaires will now pay their share. But, Americans should think twice; in particular, Seniors living in retirement off the Capital Gains from their investments. Think Seniors are eager to pay 25% vs. 15% on income??

If a investor loses money it is a capital loss too. That goes to adjusted income. Income should be income. It should be taxed as income. If you live on investments(capital gain or intrest) and make 100,000 dollars a year you should be taxed in the income bracket for 100,000 dollars.

I am not suggesting that capital gains tax rates be eliminated......just that they (at least) stay the same. You want any and all income to be taxed the same. What impact will that have on Capital markets? Are people going to invest more, hold their money, or seek alternative investments (foreign) where they are protected from a high capital gains tax rate in the US? Some of the wealthiest elite who will be taking this path bear the names of Kennedy, Pelosi, Kerry......and, they should.

Capital is not a bad word. When it comes to Capital tax rates, I subscribe to JFK's notion that these should be kept low so that a "a rising tide can be created to raise all ships." Economic policies rooted in envy along with elite-led specious promises of equal redistribution for all only serve to accomplish two things:

1) Entrench the Elite
2) Eliminate The Middle Class

 

[Dragon]

So Buffet should stop investing and the economy will grow. Good to know.

He should invest in things that actually creates jobs. Not all investment does.

So you want more money from him AND tell him what to invest in. Nice.

What I want, of course, is a change in the rules of the game so that better investments are encouraged, as was once the case when our economy was much the healthier for it.

Idiot.

See my signature. You just demonstrated that you have no argument to offer, and must fall back on juvenile insults.

 

[Katzndogz]

As obama has already said that the Buffett Rule was a gimmick, why is it even being discussed? After all IF it was true that Warren Buffett had a desire to have his taxes raised, why hasn't he paid the taxes he already owes? If the bobblehead rich really want to pay more in taxes, why do they voluntarily take deductions? They can raise their own taxes by not fighting for every dime of deductions.

 

[SniperFire]

As obama has already said that the Buffett Rule was a gimmick, why is it even being discussed?

To distract from Obama's complete failure on the economy, of course.

 

[saveliberty]

He should invest in things that actually creates jobs. Not all investment does.

So you want more money from him AND tell him what to invest in. Nice.

What I want, of course, is a change in the rules of the game so that better investments are encouraged, as was once the case when our economy was much the healthier for it.

Idiot.

See my signature. You just demonstrated that you have no argument to offer, and must fall back on juvenile insults.

You were easily handled and NEED an idiot defense, so you made it your sig. Pretty funny. I'm guessing you get called an idiot quite a bit. Ever stop to ponder why?

 

[Trajan]

He does not pay capital gains on the money he invests. He pays only on the returns over and above investment. The implication that the money is taxed twice is false.

jesus christ..


here lets take little ole me, we just did our taxes and my wife had some stock grants via restricted stock options ( RSU's) which had vested,so, they are now her property.


here is the tax we paid, up front, to take possession of every share-



Federal 25.00
Medicare 1.45
Social sec. 4.20
Cali. State 10.23
Cali state disability ins. 1.20

Total= 42.08%


now, if we sell the share or shares of stock, we pay a cap gain rate of 15% on ever penny of gain as well as you inferred....... we paid tax on the RSU grant price of $60 a share as shown above, and we hold on it and wait, and it hits say $80, we pay another 15% tax rate on the $20 ( if thats the rate at the time) when we actually sell it. see how that works?


Now , in order for the co. to make that stock grant they made a profit where in they paid the corp. tax rate of 35% when the closed their books for the year.

A portion of the proceeds, of the after tax income/profit for that co. was then provided via RSU's to its employees...


so tell me , how many times was that money taxed before he/we actually got to realize it?


Oh AND if any investment goes south no matter the amount of loss, you only get to write off $3000.00.

The typical CON$erviNutzi half truth, whole lie.

You get to deduct $3,000 PER YEAR each and every year until the whole loss has been deducted.

And if you want to play that multiple taxed game as the money passes through multiple hands, the money was taxed before the consumer bought the products or services of the company that issued the stock grant on their profits. So essentially you are arguing that a dollar can only be taxed once no matter how many hands it passes through in its lifetime.

carry over is carry over, mentioning that doesn't help you at all, becasue the numbers they play with is so large, you willful ignoramus......see how that works?

at 3K a year even for someone like me who may have lost 50K lets see...how long would that take?


and money is not shit from unicorns asses, the tax burden of the co. I invest in, costs me dollars on the back end that would have been mine IF it were not taxed before it got me....try reading that 3 or 4 times...just maybe you'll get it.

I knew you'd figure out a way to be a jackass....*shrugs* its your nickel, well, 4.2 cents actually...

 

[edthecynic]

So Buffet should stop investing and the economy will grow. Good to know. Idiot.

Buffett does not flip his investments in the short term like a speculator, he invests for the long haul. You knew that already but were just desperate for a Straw Man.
Thank you.

First you call Buffet's investments speculation and now they're not? Caught in your own lie I see. If you had an ounce of honesty you would admit Buffet couldn't possibly use his losses during his lifetime. Long term investing sounds like job creation. Care to fuss up to that?

You are a pathological liar. YOU called Buffett's investments speculation!!!

 

[Trajan]

and just to add some factoids.....( run Ed)



In the 70s, the top 1% paid approx. 20% all federal income taxes.

now?

The top 1% pay approx. 38%.


In 2007, according to the CBO the 1% paid approx. 28%, as individuals, compared to 15% for middle-income filers....

 

[edthecynic]

jesus christ..


here lets take little ole me, we just did our taxes and my wife had some stock grants via restricted stock options ( RSU's) which had vested,so, they are now her property.


here is the tax we paid, up front, to take possession of every share-



Federal 25.00
Medicare 1.45
Social sec. 4.20
Cali. State 10.23
Cali state disability ins. 1.20

Total= 42.08%


now, if we sell the share or shares of stock, we pay a cap gain rate of 15% on ever penny of gain as well as you inferred....... we paid tax on the RSU grant price of $60 a share as shown above, and we hold on it and wait, and it hits say $80, we pay another 15% tax rate on the $20 ( if thats the rate at the time) when we actually sell it. see how that works?


Now , in order for the co. to make that stock grant they made a profit where in they paid the corp. tax rate of 35% when the closed their books for the year.

A portion of the proceeds, of the after tax income/profit for that co. was then provided via RSU's to its employees...


so tell me , how many times was that money taxed before he/we actually got to realize it?


Oh AND if any investment goes south no matter the amount of loss, you only get to write off $3000.00.

The typical CON$erviNutzi half truth, whole lie.

You get to deduct $3,000 PER YEAR each and every year until the whole loss has been deducted.

And if you want to play that multiple taxed game as the money passes through multiple hands, the money was taxed before the consumer bought the products or services of the company that issued the stock grant on their profits. So essentially you are arguing that a dollar can only be taxed once no matter how many hands it passes through in its lifetime.

carry over is carry over, mentioning that doesn't help you at all, becasue the numbers they play with is so large, you willful ignoramus......see how that works?

at 3K a year even for someone like me who may have lost 50K lets see...how long would that take?


and money is not shit from unicorns asses, the tax burden of the co. I invest in, costs me dollars on the back end that would have been mine IF it were not taxed before it got me....try reading that 3 or 4 times...just maybe you'll get it.

I knew you'd figure out a way to be a jackass....*shrugs* its your nickel, well, 4.2 cents actually...

You couldn't have lost 50k in the stock market and not known you could deduct $3k per year until your full 50k has been deducted, so you are lying about losing 50k or you knew you were lying when you said you can only deduct 3k of your losses. Either way you are a liar.... Try reading that 3 or 4 times...just maybe you'll get it.