Pastor arrested for holding home Bible study

[Noomi]

He broke zoning law. He had permission to turn the garage into a games room, not a church, which is what this building was. He is welcome to hold Bible study in his home as long as he obeys the law next time.

 

[Amelia]

A Bible study group is not a church.

 

[Noomi]

A Bible study group is not a church.

His garage was basically set up as a church, and he broke zoning laws. This has nothing to do with his religion.

 

[Amelia]

A Bible study group is not a church.

His garage was basically set up as a church, and he broke zoning laws. This has nothing to do with his religion.

Perhaps he broke zoning laws. Perhaps he didn't. They SAID he did, but were the laws appropriately applied? (Why does a private, noncommercial group meeting on private property need to qualify under commercial public use standards?)

And were they applied to him when they wouldn't have been applied to others? If they would not have been applied to other groups of 15 to 20 meeting regularly on a friend's private property, then this is religious discrimination.

 

[Amelia]

P.s., why is the husband in jail and not the wife?

 

[Moonglow]

This happened in a republican lead state that has already proven that it is harsh and uncaring about it's population or their freedoms.

 

[MeBelle]

A Bible study group is not a church.

His garage was basically set up as a church, and he broke zoning laws. This has nothing to do with his religion.

Noomi, sorry. Unless you have a basic understanding of our country's constitution I don't think you would have the knowledge necessary to understand all of the possible alleged violations this situation 'violates'.

 

[MeBelle]

Oh, bull shit. I know lots of libs and probably more cons, and I can tell you how most of them feel. The libs, while perhaps not being religious themselves, would not deny religion to others. You see, that is one of the main differences between most libs and most cons. Liberals seem to be generally much more tolerant of other's viewpoints than do cons. Cons seem to be generally less tolerant of other's viewpoints - much less tolerant.

To state it succintly: Libs: I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to my death your right to say it. Cons: If I don't like it, you can't have it.

You do know, don't you, that your side reports people to the government for criticizing Obama, right?

I reported myself for a while, but no one ever came by to see me. I think the whole thing is a scam.

You just didn't see them coming by...they come in stealth mode ya know.

 

[pinqy]

A Bible study group is not a church.

His garage was basically set up as a church, and he broke zoning laws. This has nothing to do with his religion.

Perhaps he broke zoning laws. Perhaps he didn't. They SAID he did, but were the laws appropriately applied? (Why does a private, noncommercial group meeting on private property need to qualify under commercial public use standards?)

And were they applied to him when they wouldn't have been applied to others? If they would not have been applied to other groups of 15 to 20 meeting regularly on a friend's private property, then this is religious discrimination.

If it's not a church, why did he apply for and receive tax exempt status as a church?

And his claims about being small and private are in dispute:

a private investigator testified that he was not acquainted with the Salmans when he attended the church and saw 40 or 50 people in attendance during regular services and 20 or 30 additional worshipers for special occasions such as baptisms.

Salman and his wife have not paid taxes on the property since an inspector from the Maricopa County Assessor’s Office approved Salman’s request to have the property classified as a church in 2008.

When the inspector visited the home, a sign outside the property included the name of the church, according to court documents, and the inspector found a podium, folding chairs and other items that allowed him to grant the property tax-exempt status.
Phoenix preacher jailed in zoning dispute - News from The Arizona Republic

So, tax exempt status, sign naming the church, a seperate building with podium and folding chairs, 40-50 people including an inspector who didn't know anyone else....
How again is this equivalent to a knitting circle?

 

[Ravi]

His garage was basically set up as a church, and he broke zoning laws. This has nothing to do with his religion.

Perhaps he broke zoning laws. Perhaps he didn't. They SAID he did, but were the laws appropriately applied? (Why does a private, noncommercial group meeting on private property need to qualify under commercial public use standards?)

And were they applied to him when they wouldn't have been applied to others? If they would not have been applied to other groups of 15 to 20 meeting regularly on a friend's private property, then this is religious discrimination.

If it's not a church, why did he apply for and receive tax exempt status as a church?

And his claims about being small and private are in dispute:

a private investigator testified that he was not acquainted with the Salmans when he attended the church and saw 40 or 50 people in attendance during regular services and 20 or 30 additional worshipers for special occasions such as baptisms.

Salman and his wife have not paid taxes on the property since an inspector from the Maricopa County Assessor’s Office approved Salman’s request to have the property classified as a church in 2008.

When the inspector visited the home, a sign outside the property included the name of the church, according to court documents, and the inspector found a podium, folding chairs and other items that allowed him to grant the property tax-exempt status.
Phoenix preacher jailed in zoning dispute - News from The Arizona Republic

So, tax exempt status, sign naming the church, a seperate building with podium and folding chairs, 40-50 people including an inspector who didn't know anyone else....
How again is this equivalent to a knitting circle?

Boom!

 

[JakeStarkey]

Individuals and groups interpret laws to their own gain and cost. They may go to council and commission to get exemptions or variances. However, P&Z decides this, not 1st Amendment.

Nothing to see here, folks; move along.

A Bible study group is not a church.

His garage was basically set up as a church, and he broke zoning laws. This has nothing to do with his religion.

Perhaps he broke zoning laws. Perhaps he didn't. They SAID he did, but were the laws appropriately applied? (Why does a private, noncommercial group meeting on private property need to qualify under commercial public use standards?)

And were they applied to him when they wouldn't have been applied to others? If they would not have been applied to other groups of 15 to 20 meeting regularly on a friend's private property, then this is religious discrimination.

 

[Douger]

.and the arresting Nazifer is still alive. Only in the land of duh coward.

 

[Ravi]

The article Pingy linked to even has the name of his church. Harvest Community Church.

 

[Amelia]

His garage was basically set up as a church, and he broke zoning laws. This has nothing to do with his religion.

Perhaps he broke zoning laws. Perhaps he didn't. They SAID he did, but were the laws appropriately applied? (Why does a private, noncommercial group meeting on private property need to qualify under commercial public use standards?)

And were they applied to him when they wouldn't have been applied to others? If they would not have been applied to other groups of 15 to 20 meeting regularly on a friend's private property, then this is religious discrimination.

If it's not a church, why did he apply for and receive tax exempt status as a church?

And his claims about being small and private are in dispute:

a private investigator testified that he was not acquainted with the Salmans when he attended the church and saw 40 or 50 people in attendance during regular services and 20 or 30 additional worshipers for special occasions such as baptisms.

Salman and his wife have not paid taxes on the property since an inspector from the Maricopa County Assessor’s Office approved Salman’s request to have the property classified as a church in 2008.

When the inspector visited the home, a sign outside the property included the name of the church, according to court documents, and the inspector found a podium, folding chairs and other items that allowed him to grant the property tax-exempt status.
Phoenix preacher jailed in zoning dispute - News from The Arizona Republic

So, tax exempt status, sign naming the church, a seperate building with podium and folding chairs, 40-50 people including an inspector who didn't know anyone else....
How again is this equivalent to a knitting circle?

That's very interesting. Thanks for the extra info.

I guess my main remaining concern is that all this seems to have started before 2008 because the guy was hassled for having 15 people in his living room, back when it might actually have been comparable to the knitting circle.

Did he really intend it to be a church, or did say "might as well" after they started hassling him. Did they lead him to believe that all he needed to do was change his designation and he'd be okay, and then he found out about all the extra requirements?

He apparently made some mistakes. And apparently did some things more intentionally wrong (such as deception on his garage permit) if the stories so far are to be believed.






Still curious about why his wife isn't in jail. Was she not a willing partner in the fire code and handicap accessibility violations?






Now what is "the rest of the story" for the California case horty posted? http://www.wnd.com/2009/05/98895/

 

[Againsheila]

Cassy Treat built his Mega Church on Business zoned property. There was nothing the City of Federal Way could do to stop him. So how is it that this man can't have his church? Is it the amount of money involved? Just curious. We lost all those tax dollars, seems to me the tax dollars for a residence would be insignificant in comparison.

 

[jillian]

After two years of relative calm, the feud between the City of Phoenix and the Salmans escalated when they erected a 2,000 square foot building in their backyard. Mr Salman said he applied for and was granted all the appropriate permits and the building has passed a city inspection.

‘At that point we took our Bible study from our living room – and we moved it into that building,’ he said. ‘We started worshiping in that building every weekend.’

However, Miss Hill, the chief assistant city prosecutor, said Salman has ‘mischaracterized the facts’ of the permit. She said that he was given a permit to convert a garage into a game room, not a church or anything else for that matter.

Father of six faces 60 days behind bars for hosting Bible study in his OWN home against city rules | Mail Online

Maybe he doesn't know that lying is a sin.

it's more fun for them to try to make this a religious issue.

he's being treated like anyone else holding gatherings.

but i guess that doesn't suit some people.

 

[Amelia]

Cassy Treat built his Mega Church on Business zoned property. There was nothing the City of Federal Way could do to stop him. So how is it that this man can't have his church? Is it the amount of money involved? Just curious. We lost all those tax dollars, seems to me the tax dollars for a residence would be insignificant in comparison.

If it was a church, then he wasn't following the laws connected with church buildings - such as having fire exits and wheelchair ramps.

Sounds like he was denying it was a church -- which might have flown in 2007 when they first started harassing him for having people over to his livingroom. But it didn't fly after 2008 after he submitted paperwork calling the group a church.

IIUC.

 

[Foxfyre]

After two years of relative calm, the feud between the City of Phoenix and the Salmans escalated when they erected a 2,000 square foot building in their backyard. Mr Salman said he applied for and was granted all the appropriate permits and the building has passed a city inspection.

‘At that point we took our Bible study from our living room – and we moved it into that building,’ he said. ‘We started worshiping in that building every weekend.’

However, Miss Hill, the chief assistant city prosecutor, said Salman has ‘mischaracterized the facts’ of the permit. She said that he was given a permit to convert a garage into a game room, not a church or anything else for that matter.

Father of six faces 60 days behind bars for hosting Bible study in his OWN home against city rules | Mail Online

Maybe he doesn't know that lying is a sin.

it's more fun for them to try to make this a religious issue.

he's being treated like anyone else holding gatherings.

but i guess that doesn't suit some people.

You may be right. But it is not an invalid point to ask if this was a bridge club or quilting group or after school tutoring session, would the same objections have been imposed?

 

[Againsheila]

After two years of relative calm, the feud between the City of Phoenix and the Salmans escalated when they erected a 2,000 square foot building in their backyard. Mr Salman said he applied for and was granted all the appropriate permits and the building has passed a city inspection.

‘At that point we took our Bible study from our living room – and we moved it into that building,’ he said. ‘We started worshiping in that building every weekend.’

However, Miss Hill, the chief assistant city prosecutor, said Salman has ‘mischaracterized the facts’ of the permit. She said that he was given a permit to convert a garage into a game room, not a church or anything else for that matter.

Father of six faces 60 days behind bars for hosting Bible study in his OWN home against city rules | Mail Online

Maybe he doesn't know that lying is a sin.

it's more fun for them to try to make this a religious issue.

he's being treated like anyone else holding gatherings.

but i guess that doesn't suit some people.

One question, was it ever used as a gaming room? If so, then he wasn't lying. I know someone that built a rec room onto the back of their home with an added bath and small kitchen. It was actually a mother in law apartment, but because those are illegal, they had to build a rec room. The use it as a rec room most of the time, but there are times when someone comes to stay with them that it becomes an apartment.

My cousin wanted to build an apartment in their garage, which they built before building their house. Well, they weren't allowed to build an apartment in a garage, so they built a barn with an apartment in it. A barn with a cement floor and a garage door. She kept the hay in there though.

Truth is, a lot of people work around the system and I'm guessing that if this was a quilting circle, no one would be objecting.

Ever see Green Acres? There was an episode where he wanted to build a shed attached to his barn but they wouldn't give him a permit because no permit had ever been given for the barn. His wife finally solved the problem by getting a permit first for the barn and then for the shed he wanted to build attached to it.

And the inspectors are a joke. We had a new furnace put in and when we did, we added venting to the upstairs, the inspector showed up and checked off on it, when I asked if he was going to check the venting, he said "what venting", it wasn't on his list and if I wanted him to check it, it would cost me $1,000. Needless to say it was never checked. The permit process for it was on the company that put it in, me having mentioned it, the inspector knew it was there, but did nothing, he just wanted a bribe and this in the good old USA.

Let's face it, some of these zoning laws are stupid and some of the people complaining about this man violating them would be the first to violate them if they wanted something and could figure a way around the law to get it.

 

[jillian]

Let's face it, some of these zoning laws are stupid and some of the people complaining about this man violating them would be the first to violate them if they wanted something and could figure a way around the law to get it.

All other issues aside, I agree regarding some zoning laws. However, they are laws and can be challenged appropriately. Now, if he wishes to use this case to challenge an allegedly stupid zoning law, then that is the basis on which he should have defended himself. He can then appeal if he believes that the zoning law in question violates the state or federal constitution.

Short of that, his only recourse is in lobbying his local legislators.

Getting himself arrested is simply stupid... and it isn't a religious issue...

unless you think laws shouldn't be enforced against people to whom you want to give a preference.