Old City Jerusalem as an Independent Sovereignty

[Shusha]

What would provide an economy for Jerusalem? A center of learning?

Tourism is a pretty solid bet.

 

[Coyote]

What would provide an economy for Jerusalem? A center of learning?

Tourism is a pretty solid bet.

Enough to fund a city?

 

[Shusha]

What would provide an economy for Jerusalem? A center of learning?

Tourism is a pretty solid bet.

Enough to fund a city?

Of 50,000. Oh hell, yeah. Not that I'm an expert on economies or anything. But, yeah, I'd say so.

 

[USAF 2023]

What is the incentive for Israel to share jurisdiction over a place where it already has full control?

Compromise only makes sense where there is something to gain by it.

Because Israel has no legal authority to any of Jerusalem.
The 1949 UN partition made Jerusalem a separate entity that is supposed to be controlled by the UN, not Israel or Palestine.
So do you want the Rule of Law, or the rule of the jungle, where might makes right?

The Rule of Law?? You claim that the U.N made Jerusalem a separate entity so please tell us why Jordan had total control, forbid Jewish Entry CONTRARY to the “ Rule of Law” you refer to and why they were allowed to desecrate so many symbols of Jewish Heritage?
Please tell us why the Palestinians are demanding Control over E. Jerusalem making a formal statement that Jews were going to be Forbidden to have access to their Religious Sites
So, do you want the rule of Law , where there is clearly a Double Standard or a Just Law which clearly states what Israel had to accept before 1967 will NEVER be again

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Old City Jerusalem as an Independent Sovereignty
⁜→ ILOVEISRAEL, Rigby5, fncceo, et al,

What is the incentive for Israel to share jurisdiction over a place where it already has full control?
Compromise only makes sense where there is something to gain by it.

(COMMENT)

It depends on the nature of the compromise and the political balance. It is hard to answer a hypothetical. In the unilateral withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, the Arab Palestinians demonstrated that they were not trustworthy.

Because Israel has no legal authority to any of Jerusalem.

(COMMENT)

You need to look at the reality and not the idealistic fairy tail about what is legal.
Ask yourself:

◈ Who exercises what authorities where in Jerusalem?
◈ Who is actually making infrastructure improvements in Jerusalem?
◈ Who is working toward the developmental improvement in quality of life?​

The 1949 UN partition made Jerusalem a separate entity that is supposed to be controlled by the UN, not Israel or Palestine.
So do you want the Rule of Law, or the rule of the jungle, where might makes right?

(COMMENT)

In 1949? No! The UN Special Committee for Palestine (UNSCOP) made recommendations and the General Assembly adopted them in 1947. That is NOT Law. And even if it were law, then the Arab League Intervention obstructed the application of the law.

The Rhetorical Question: "rule of the jungle, where might makes right?" is nothing more than a theatrical bid for sympathy. It has nothing to do with "Law Enforcement" (your description of "might").

The Rule of Law?? You claim that the U.N made Jerusalem a separate entity so please tell us why Jordan had total control, forbid Jewish Entry CONTRARY to the “ Rule of Law” you refer to and why they were allowed to desecrate so many symbols of Jewish Heritage?

(COMMENT)

Religious Laws and Motivated Actions that are supported by local enforcement are seldom understood in the shadow of common sense.

In the case of the Muslims versus Jewish constituents, they are both Abrahamic Religions and therefore theoretically compatible. When they are violently opposed, that becomes evidence that the common Deity is flawed.

Please tell us why the Palestinians are demanding Control over E. Jerusalem making a formal statement that Jews were going to be Forbidden to have access to their Religious Sites
So, do you want the Rule of Law, where there is clearly a Double Standard or a Just Law which clearly states what Israel had to accept before 1967 will NEVER be again

(COMMENT)

This is nothing more than political grandstanding. There is no logic involved here to be evaluated. Only the hatefulness seeps through.

........
Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

◈ Who is actually making infrastructure improvements in Jerusalem?

The Palestinians. Israel bulldozes them.

 

[P F Tinmore]

In the unilateral withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, the Arab Palestinians demonstrated that they were not trustworthy.

The you go again, Rocco, with your bullshit Israeli talking points.

You know them all.

 

[fncceo]

◈ Who is actually making infrastructure improvements in Jerusalem?

The Palestinians. Israel bulldozes them.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

[admonit]

Nothing will be independent on the territory of Israel. Not one square meter. Forgеt about Jerusalem. For ever. It's done.

 

[José]

Originally posted by admonit
Nothing will be independent on the territory of Israel. Not one square meter. Fogot about Jerusalem. For ever. It's done.

Just a few days after the israeli PM announced for the second time in this year his plan to annex 30% of the WB, you have a group of hopelessly clueless westerners trying to "resurrect" some weird version of the stillborn Corpus Separatum proposal of 1947.

Talk about complete alienation, utter detachment, absolute divorce from reality.

 

[USAF 2023]

In the unilateral withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, the Arab Palestinians demonstrated that they were not trustworthy.

The you go again, Rocco, with your bullshit Israeli talking points.

You know them all.

◈ Who is actually making infrastructure improvements in Jerusalem?

The Palestinians. Israel bulldozes them.

I will show the same “ concern” that you and others had when Jordan destroyed Jewish Holy Places, Temples, and actually dug up Jewish Graves using them as latrines

 

[Coyote]

The Parsha and current events: Where is
the Avraham of our generation?
Parashat Nitzavim: The last Shabbat of the year 5779. Tibi and Rivlin, Ephron and
Abraham - the contrast is telling..

Our rabbis have taught that Hashem put Abraham, Avraham Aveinu, through ten tests. The ninth was the "binding of Yitzchak" (Akeidat Yitzchak) and the tenth, the negotiations between Avraham and Efron the Hittite for the purchase of Ma’arat Ha’machpela as a burial site for Sarah. Since logic dictates that each succeeding test should increase in difficulty, what is it about the last test set before Avraham that made it more trying than the Akeida?

Was it the necessity to deal with worldly matters of "real estate" while in the midst of a profound emotional crisis at the loss of his beloved Sarah? Was it his being taken advantage of by the unscrupulous Efron, who charged 400 shekels for a burial site which was not worth nearly that much? These were indeed aggravating realities, but the hard core of the test, I believe, ran far deeper into an area which was to impact upon Jewish history.

A fundamental religious principle appears in many of our classical commentaries and responsa: The actions of the three fathers (Avraham, Yitzchak and Ya’akov) guide their children (the Jewish people) along the path to redemption. The moment of truth came when Avraham, despite the dangers inherent in what he was presently going to do, stood up before the Hittite council of elders and proclaimed:

I am a stranger and a resident among you.

Rashi quotes the Midrash that explains Avraham’s intent:
If you wish [to sell the burial site], I will act as a stranger who recognizes your rights over the area; but if you do not [sell me the burial site], I will implement my right of sovereignty and seize the land by virtue of God’s promise to me, "And to your children will I give this land."

At the time when Avraham was told by Hashem to leave his land, his birthplace and his father’s home to take up residence in a land which Hashem would identify later, Europe was mostly desolate, as were most parts of Africa and Asia, not to speak of the Americas. But instead of sending Avraham to establish a Jewish State in some unpopulated area where there would be no protest, Avraham was directed to the most populous area in the world; a thin sliver of land at the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea populated by seven pagan nations numbering in the hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions. Each of these peoples descended from Cham, son of Noach, who had arrived in the land much before Avraham. They cultivated its fields, constructed buildings and established places of worship, which taken together served as a common civilization.
At this junction in their history, a stranger arrives from the east and declares that he is the true sovereign over all the land. Not just the area of Canaan, but of all the lands from the Euphrates in the north and east to the Nile in the south and west, and from the Mediterranean to Mesopotamia!

By this statement, Avraham was challenging the rights of countless people who considered themselves the owners of these lands by virtue of conquest and purchase. This was an act of immense courage, because from that moment on, Avraham was perceived by all those people to be a threat to their way of life and to their very existence.
We were here before you! You are a foreign implant in the Middle East. We do not tolerate other beliefs! Does this not sound strangely familiar? Don’t we hear it daily from Arab spokesmen, echoing the feelings of the ancient children of Cham when reacting to Avraham’s declaration of sovereignty. These anti-God, latter-day advocates of denial spew their venom in the media, on campus, in the Security Council, on Capitol Hill and on the Temple Mount.

However, on Sunday we were witness to an immense chillul Hashem when representatives of the four Arab Knesset parties arrived at the president’s residence to discuss who they would support for Prime Minister. The spokesman, Dr. Achmed Tibi stood before President Rivlin as a proud Arab and stated, “We are not guests in this country, we are the ba’alei batim - owners of the land”.

And the President did not respond!

Here was a reverse scenario of the Avraham and Hittite episode; when instead of Avraham the Jew stating proudly and emphatically that he is the God given possessor of all these lands, it is a sworn enemy of the Jewish nation standing before the President declaring that the Arabs are the possessors of the Land of Israel.
Were I the President, I would have directed the security people to put him and his entourage on the first plane out of the country with no right to ever return.

And we ask ourselves: where is the Avraham of our generation who will stand up before the world and declare that Eretz Yisrael is our God-given heritage?
This is obviously too huge a test for today’s Jewish leaders. It makes no difference whether they be great talmidei chachamim who almost to a man advocate a low profile when dealing with Yishmael in the east and Eisav in the west, or secular Jews who believe that our ties to the land are historic and do not stem from God’s promise to our forefathers.

Were I to merit the opportunity to stand before an international forum, I would shout the words of Avraham Aveinu, that although we recognize certain individual rights of non-Jews in the Holy Land, God and His people Israel are the sovereigns over the entire land between the two great rivers. The denial of our sovereignty over Eretz Yisrael as God-given is the root of all our problems today in Eretz Yisrael. In the wake of the 1967 Six Day War, when Hashem presented to Am Yisrael the entire area of Eretz Yisrael west of the Jordan river on a silver platter, the Jewish thing to have done would have been to immediately:

1. Erase the Moslem entities from the Temple Mount,
2. Annex all the areas of Shomron, Yehuda, Aza, and the Golan Heights into the State of Israel,
3. Open the bridges over the Jordan River and help, facilitate, assist, and inspire all the Arabs to leave the country,
4. Begin an ambitious project of resettling the newly acquired lands between the “Ocean” and the “River”.
5. Open ever wider the gates of Aliya for the millions who would have returned had the government acted according to the first four.

However, since our leaders then lacked, and still lack, the Jewish pride which filled Avraham Aveinu, we are witnessing the negation of everything which is right.

1. The Temple Mount has become the focal point for Moslems in Eretz Yisrael, when on each Friday in Ramadan 300,000 Moslems ascend the Mount and turn their backs on Yerushalayim and face Mecca.
2. Official government policy is to plan together with the United States the establishment of one more Arab state in the area of Shomron, Yehuda and Aza.
3. Instead of decreasing the Arab population, our government does everything to increase it, as they turn a blind eye to the multiple Arab marriages, so that a Bedouin family can number from 50 to 75 and more children, and slowly take over the entire Negev.
4. The government creates multiple hardships for people wishing to settle in our liberated areas.
5. The long-awaited ingathering of all Jews to Eretz Yisrael has not crystallized because of the weakness of the "children" compared to the pride and strength of Avraham Aveinu, when he declared our God-given sovereignty over every millimeter of this Holy Land.

Our prayers before Hashem at the onset of this new year 5780, are that as in past desperate periods in our history, Hashem will send a leader who exhibits the Jewish pride exemplified by Avraham Avinu.

It will happen again in our time. And when that day comes, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and all the other would-be Hitlers who slither around the planet will be no more. And the banners of the twelve Jewish tribes will be raised by the people who have returned to take possession of all of Eretz Yisrael.

The Parsha and current events: Where is the Avraham of our generation?

That sounds pretty damn extremist. Ethnic cleansing?

Rylah posted...but is now deleted.

 

[rylah]

1. [*]Erase the Moslem entities from the Temple Mount,
   [*]Annex all the areas of Shomron, Yehuda, Aza, and the Golan Heights into the State of Israel,
   [*]Open the bridges over the Jordan River and help, facilitate, assist, and inspire all the Arabs to leave the country,
   [*]Begin an ambitious project of resettling the newly acquired lands between the “Ocean” and the “River”.
   [*]Open ever wider the gates of Aliya for the millions who would have returned had the government acted according to the first four.

That sounds pretty damn extremist.

Decrease the Arab population?

Turn a blind eye to multiple Bedouin marriages?

Is this a call for ethnic cleansing?

Not ethnic cleansing according to the lefties, but liberation.
That's what the author of the article would do if he took a messianic role.
But, let's face it, Arabs are already paying big $$ to Hamas to leave for Europe,
having a Temple on the Temple Mount will make much more sense.

 

[Coyote]

1. [*]Erase the Moslem entities from the Temple Mount,
   [*]Annex all the areas of Shomron, Yehuda, Aza, and the Golan Heights into the State of Israel,
   [*]Open the bridges over the Jordan River and help, facilitate, assist, and inspire all the Arabs to leave the country,
   [*]Begin an ambitious project of resettling the newly acquired lands between the “Ocean” and the “River”.
   [*]Open ever wider the gates of Aliya for the millions who would have returned had the government acted according to the first four.

That sounds pretty damn extremist.

Decrease the Arab population?

Turn a blind eye to multiple Bedouin marriages?

Is this a call for ethnic cleansing?

Not ethnic cleansing according to the lefties, but liberation.
That's what the author of the article would do if he took a messianic role.
But, let's face it, Arabs are already paying big $$ to Hamas to leave for Europe,
and having a Temple on the Temple Mount will make much more sense.

That is ethnic cleansing.

Erasing Muslims from the Temple Mount?

“help, facilitate, assist, and inspire” all the Arabs to leave the country?

Liberation? Do you realize “liberation” is exactly the term some Muslims use to “reclaim their lands” from the Jews? Liberation...code for ethnic cleansing and in the case of that article very clearly articulated.

 

[rylah]

1. [*]Erase the Moslem entities from the Temple Mount,
   [*]Annex all the areas of Shomron, Yehuda, Aza, and the Golan Heights into the State of Israel,
   [*]Open the bridges over the Jordan River and help, facilitate, assist, and inspire all the Arabs to leave the country,
   [*]Begin an ambitious project of resettling the newly acquired lands between the “Ocean” and the “River”.
   [*]Open ever wider the gates of Aliya for the millions who would have returned had the government acted according to the first four.

That sounds pretty damn extremist.

Decrease the Arab population?

Turn a blind eye to multiple Bedouin marriages?

Is this a call for ethnic cleansing?

Not ethnic cleansing according to the lefties, but liberation.
That's what the author of the article would do if he took a messianic role.
But, let's face it, Arabs are already paying big $$ to Hamas to leave for Europe,
and having a Temple on the Temple Mount will make much more sense.

That is ethnic cleansing.

Erasing Muslims from the Temple Mount?

“help, facilitate, assist, and inspire” all the Arabs to leave the country?

Liberation? Do you realize “liberation” is exactly the term some Muslims use to “reclaim their lands” from the Jews? Liberation...code for ethnic cleansing and in the case of that article very clearly articulated.

No, Muslims use the term "liberation" as code for expansion of complete domination over entire continents, and nations on lands belonging to others - see the Temple Mount, see Muslim invasions.

In the case of the Temple Mount,
liberation - is the exact definition of the term.

 

[rylah]

It will make much more sense for the world if in Israel there is a Temple on the Temple Mount.
Isn't that apparent?

 

[Coyote]

It will make much more sense for the world if in Israel there is a Temple on the Temple Mount.
Isn't that apparent?

Erasing Muslims from the Temple Mount?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It will make much more sense for the world if in Israel there is a Temple on the Temple Mount.
Isn't that apparent?

Erasing Muslims from the Temple Mount?

They could rebuild on the site of some abandoned Church in Europe.

 

[Shusha]

Rashi quotes the Midrash that explains Avraham’s intent:
If you wish [to sell the burial site], I will act as a stranger who recognizes your rights over the area; but if you do not [sell me the burial site], I will implement my right of sovereignty and seize the land by virtue of God’s promise to me, "And to your children will I give this land."

This very much sums up my feelings about the conflict at this point. IF the Arabs had treated the Jewish people as equals, with respect and sincere "welcome home", then there would be a sharing of rights and mutual acknowledgement. SINCE the Arabs have NOT done this, the Jewish people have no alternative but to assert our sovereignty.

 

[Shusha]

The only people erased from the Temple Mount are the Jewish people. THAT is ethnic cleansing. (Have you read Rigby's posts? And he is only the last of a long line.)