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Should Americans who stay in a foreign country more than three months have to learn the language?
i would think anyone going to a foreign Country to live would want to learn the language......and in Mexico they wont cater to you like we do here with the language thing....if you dont know Spanish tough shit....
I've been through Mexico
More Mexicans speak English than Americans speak another language
The myths that surround undocumented immigrants and welfare continue even thou they are not supported by facts.In my post, I was expressing the opinions of two Mexicans from Chihuahua that I met while staying at a B&B. Another point they made was that Americans seem to hold the Mexican government responsible for the illegal immigration problem. They felt that it is not the Mexican government's fault that we make laws that we either cannot or choose not to enforce.
I understand that you were just presenting the opinions of others. But I was pointing out the flaws in the ways those people are coming to the decision that it's acceptable to move here illegally. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what Mexicans think of our laws or our position. None of it gives them a justifiable reason to illegally enter the US.
Many ask: why dont they just apply to come legally? Some Americans believe that good laws are being violated by bad, selfish, impatient people. That point of view, however, may come from the misunderstanding that legally immigrating to the United States is a relatively easy process. In fact, people trying to come here to work or join family find themselves caught in a hodge-podge of outdated immigration laws and a famously inept and unpredictable immigration bureaucracy. Many rational people are making the decision to risk being in the U.S. illegally in order to work and make money. These are not bad people violating good laws; they are rational people making difficult choices to improve their lives and assist their families.
This is the same romantic notion that the pro-open border crowd always tries to portray of illegal immigrants. They talk about the poverty of the people in Mexico, they talk about how illegals risk their lives, etc. They paint the illegal as an innocent person being victimized by enforcement of immigration policies, and as being just an honest, hard working person trying to catch a break. But that doesn't correspond to the facts. It doesn't fit with the fact that many illegals frequently commit welfare fraud, that many illegals purposely have anchor babies for no other reason than to deter deportation or as a means to collect welfare benefits. It does not account for the identity theft associated with obtaining fake documents that they use for no other reason than to eventually obtain welfare benefits like food stamps and section 8 housing while still working under the table. And the alleged difficulties of immigrating legally do not really compare to what it actually takes to immigrate illegally. It's more expensive to do it illegally, because they have to pay off Mexican agents to look the other way, and they usually have to pay smugglers along the way, as well as the costs to get fake documents.
I support bringing the outdated immigration laws up to date and enforcing them. For those that have lived in the US and are contributing to our economy, they should be made legal residents.
See, now this is where it becomes a bit cloudy, because even those who are working and haven't attempted to double dip and also gain welfare benefits don't contribute to our economy. Most of their money usually is sent back home to Mexico, so what happens is that they are dragging down our economy to support Mexico's economy.
Many cities in the country refuse to cooperate with the INS in deporting illegals. The sensible thing to do, is keep those that contribute to our economy and deport those that don't.
Then maybe we should send the military in to squash the rebellion, because municipalities don't have the right to interfere with federal immigration enforcement.
“Employers are very quick to raise the specter of a labor shortage, but often it’s another way of saying they can’t find the workers they want at the price they’re paying…They are unwilling to meet the price signal the market is sending, so they seek help in the form of a spigot like immigration.”14
—Jared Bernstein, Economic Policy Institute
There is no shortage of labor in the United States. There is instead a shortage of employers who are willing to pay a fair wage to American workers and too many employers who are willing to break the law to hire illegal aliens.
In 1960, meatpacking workers earned 15 percent more than that average wage for manufacturing workers.43 In 2002, they were earning 25 percent less than the average manufacturing wage, and real wages for industry workers had dropped 45 percent.44 Many of these jobs now are being done by illegal alien workers.45 Industry conditions have also deteriorated and become more dangerous, as illegal workers have little recourse to report unsafe or unsanitary conditions.46 Most Americans get their meat from a few large suppliers who have a history of exploiting their workers and failing to adequately maintain safe food practices at their processing plants.47
Because many slaughterhouse and meatpacking jobs are held by illegal aliens, they have become labeled “jobs Americans won’t do.” Yet, history demonstrates otherwise, as does present day reality. After workplace enforcement actions by Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), those jobs vacated by illegal aliens have been filled by legal workers, with many native-born among them, and wages and conditions at the plants have improved markedly.48 In 2006, 1,300 illegal workers were arrested at six different Swift & Co. plants.49 New employee screening led to a loss of an estimated 400 additional illegal workers.50 Within five months all six plants had resumed full production with legal workers who received an average pay increase of 8 percent.51
While an increased in illegal immigrant workers may raise the GDP, the per capita share of the GDP will not similarly increased. Furthermore, illegal aliens send part of their wages back to their home countries, taking that money out of the U.S. economy. In 2009, remittances to Latin America totaled $58.8 billion.55
It is the per capita GDP that is the real measure of economic gain. While the United States has the highest GDP in the world, its per capita share of GDP ranks 10th overall.57 Mexico had the 12th highest GDP the world in 2008, ahead of Australia, Canada, South Korea, the Netherlands, and many other wealthy industrialized nations.58 If GDP was a good indicator of a nation’s economic health and equality then there would be very few illegal aliens coming into the U.S. from Mexico.
Of course American's will do the crappy jobs if the pay is high enough. If the farmer has to pay $12 an hour instead of $7, his cost go up dramatically. Now, how does he compete with imports from Mexico?
Your opinions and mine are speculation because there no good statistics on the number of undocumented immigrants because they are undocumented. In the article you quoted there are over dozen estimates sited. Since they are undocumented, we do not how many there are. Read one article and they say the're 20 million. Read another and there are 12 million. Read another and there are 10 million. So what does this mean?
You can't determine the crime rate for undocumented immigrants.
You can't determine what percent pays tax.
You can't determine what percent of the workers are undocumented.
You can't determine how much they earn.
You can't determine what percent get welfare.
Oh My ! ..... isn't this Something !
MEXICO IS ANGRY!
Three Cheers for Arizona !
The shoe is on the other foot and Mexicans from the State of Sonora , Mexico don't like it.
The State of Sonora is angry at the influx of Mexicans into Mexico ! Nine state legislators from the Mexican State of Sonora traveled to Tucson to complain about Arizona s employer crackdown on illegals from Mexico .
It seems that many Mexican illegals are returning to their hometowns and the officials in the Sonora state government are ticked off. A delegation of nine state legislators from Sonora was in Tucson on Tuesday to state that Arizona s new Employer Sanctions Law will have a devastating effect on the Mexican state.
At a news conference, the legislators said that Sonora -- Arizona's southern neighbor, made up of mostly small towns -- cannot handle the demand for housing, jobs and schools that it will face as Mexican workers return to their hometowns from the USA without jobs or money. The Arizona law, which took effect Jan. 1, punishes Arizona employers who knowingly hire individuals without valid legal documents to work in the United States .
Penalties include suspension of, or loss of, their business licenses. The Mexican legislators are angry because their own citizens are returning to their hometowns, placing a burden on THEIR state government.
How can Arizona pass a law like this?" asked Mexican Rep. Leticia Amparano-Gamez, who represents Nogales . "There is not one person living in Sonora who does not have a friend or relative working in Arizona ," she said, speaking in Spanish.
Mexico is not prepared for this--for the tremendous problems it will face as more and more Mexicans working in Arizona and who were sending money to their families, return to their home-towns in Sonora without jobs, she said. "We are one family, socially and economically." she said, referring to the people of Sonora and Arizona . WRONG!!
The United States is a sovereign nation, not a subsidiary of Mexico , and its taxpayers are not responsible for the welfare of Mexico s citizens. It's time for the Mexican govenment, and its citizens, to stop feeding parasitically off the United States and start taking care of its/their own needs.
Some New Immigration Laws: Read to the bottom or you will miss the message. . .
1. There will be no special bilingual programs in the schools.
2. All ballots will be in this nation's language.
3. All government business will be conducted in our language.
4. Non-residents will NOT have the right to vote no matter how long they are here.
5. Non-citizens will NEVER be able to hold political office.
6. Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No welfare, no foodstamps, no health care, or other government assistance programs. Any burden will be deported.
7. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount at least equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.
8. If foreigners come here and buy land... options will be restricted. Certain parcels including waterfront property are reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.
9. Foreigners may have no protests; no demonstrations, no waving of a foreign flag, no political organizing, no bad-mouthing our president or his policies. These will lead to deportation.
10. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be actively hunted and, when caught, sent to jail until your deportation can be arranged. All assets will be taken from you.
Too strict? The above laws are the current immigration laws of MEXICO ! What is your opinion on tourism ads for Mexico? - Yahoo! Answers Link Added
These sound fine to me. NOW, how can we get these laws to be America s Immigration Laws?
One final issue. Polls show that over 80% of our population supports Arizona 's new laws. Certain businesses and States want to boycott Arizona because of these new laws. I say, let them do so, but lets get that 80% who agree with Arizona to boycott those states and those businesses. Then we will see who wins this debate.
If you agree with me, forward this on. If you are in the 20% that do not mind the illegal immigrants committing vast crimes in our Country and taking advantage of our broke Social Security System without paying a dime into it, then you may freely delete this message.
Arizona does not exist in a vacuum, and the reality is that it shares a border with a country where the government is unable to control the drug cartels.
Bashing illegals may score political points, but deporting those sending money back to their families only creates more problems.
There are no quick fixes for the 10-15 million illegals already in the country - the costs of apprehending, maintaining custody, operating the judicial system, etc will be astronomical.
If a kid comes to this country and speaks Spanish...do you teach him Math and Science in a language he does not understand and then fail him?
Why not? That's what we do to English speaking children in districts that teach in Spanish. We expect American citizens to suffer through school in a foreign language they don't speak, we expect them to learn that language or to fail. Why should we not instead expect foreign children to speak our language? Why should we fail American children in the interest of passing foreign children?
Bilingual education is a bridge till the kids english skills improve. And yes, the kids eventually learn english
No, they don't. Either they stay in a school district that carries Spanish all the way through, or they drop out of HS because they're tired of going to school for nothing and trying to deal with the fact that they don't know the language. Then, they go out and get a peon-level job even though they can't speak a lick of English, but that very same place will refuse to hire me because I don't speak Spanish.
Illegals use fake Social Security numbers and pay Social Security which they never receive. They also have state and federal taxes taken out of their paychecks and are not eligible for benefits.
That doesn't even make any sense. You recognize that illegals will obtain fake documents, but deny that they'll use those documents. Once they have a SSN, they can use it not just to work, but also to reap social security benefits and any form of welfare that their on-paper income will allow. They can file tax returns and obtain a tax refund. Depending on their income, they can actually get a return that is greater than the federal taxes they've paid. Those illegals who do not obtain fake documents can still obtain welfare benefits if they have anchor baby children. Since the child is a citizen, the parents are able to obtain benefits for the sake of the child. The worst thing is when illegals find a way to obtain benefits, however they go about it, but actually don't need it because they have an untraceable income from being paid under the table. This is not an uncommon thing.
Workers payed under the table benefit the employer more than they benefit the employee
There are significant problems associated with hiring illegal immigrants under the table, and the worker can indeed suffer from not having the protections of being on the books. Working conditions can often be sub-par, sometimes hazardous, and the pay is relatively low. But the ones who tend to suffer the most are the American workers, whose wages are suppressed because of the availability of illegal labor, whose working conditions are reduced, or whom is unable to find work at all because employers are instead interested in illegal labor. But none of that means that illegals cannot or will not commit fraud in order to obtain benefits and thus a higher income. That would be a non-sequitor.
S.C.R.E.W. Mexico and ALL of latin america!
Excuse me? MORE americans learn Spanish than Mexicans, or anybody from that part of the world, learn ENGLISH!!! I know more americans who in the past 30 years have gone to school to learn spanish since we do border Mexico. I also know mexicans and otms (other than mexicans) who have lived in the USA for many, many years and never bothered to learn english - and why should they when we give them the perk of interpreters wherever they go and wherever they shop!!!
If a kid comes to this country and speaks Spanish...do you teach him Math and Science in a language he does not understand and then fail him?
Why not? That's what we do to English speaking children in districts that teach in Spanish. We expect American citizens to suffer through school in a foreign language they don't speak, we expect them to learn that language or to fail. Why should we not instead expect foreign children to speak our language? Why should we fail American children in the interest of passing foreign children?
No, they don't. Either they stay in a school district that carries Spanish all the way through, or they drop out of HS because they're tired of going to school for nothing and trying to deal with the fact that they don't know the language. Then, they go out and get a peon-level job even though they can't speak a lick of English, but that very same place will refuse to hire me because I don't speak Spanish.
That doesn't even make any sense. You recognize that illegals will obtain fake documents, but deny that they'll use those documents. Once they have a SSN, they can use it not just to work, but also to reap social security benefits and any form of welfare that their on-paper income will allow. They can file tax returns and obtain a tax refund. Depending on their income, they can actually get a return that is greater than the federal taxes they've paid. Those illegals who do not obtain fake documents can still obtain welfare benefits if they have anchor baby children. Since the child is a citizen, the parents are able to obtain benefits for the sake of the child. The worst thing is when illegals find a way to obtain benefits, however they go about it, but actually don't need it because they have an untraceable income from being paid under the table. This is not an uncommon thing.
Workers payed under the table benefit the employer more than they benefit the employee
There are significant problems associated with hiring illegal immigrants under the table, and the worker can indeed suffer from not having the protections of being on the books. Working conditions can often be sub-par, sometimes hazardous, and the pay is relatively low. But the ones who tend to suffer the most are the American workers, whose wages are suppressed because of the availability of illegal labor, whose working conditions are reduced, or whom is unable to find work at all because employers are instead interested in illegal labor. But none of that means that illegals cannot or will not commit fraud in order to obtain benefits and thus a higher income. That would be a non-sequitor.
As it happens, my nephew is Korean. He moved from Korea to Arizona when he was about 12, and spoke only a few words of English. The school district wanted to put him in bilingual classes, but since they were all Spanish (which would obviously have been no help to him), my brother and his wife strenuously resisted. He remained in the English-speaking classes. He's now an adult, speaks fluent English without even an accent, is attending college, and never once flunked a class in school.
S.C.R.E.W. Mexico and ALL of latin america!
Excuse me? MORE americans learn Spanish than Mexicans, or anybody from that part of the world, learn ENGLISH!!! I know more americans who in the past 30 years have gone to school to learn spanish since we do border Mexico. I also know mexicans and otms (other than mexicans) who have lived in the USA for many, many years and never bothered to learn english - and why should they when we give them the perk of interpreters wherever they go and wherever they shop!!!
You have a point, I have met Mexicans who have been here 10-15 years and still have not learned English.
[/QUOTE]Of course American's will do the crappy jobs if the pay is high enough. If the farmer has to pay $12 an hour instead of $7, his cost go up dramatically. Now, how does he compete with imports from Mexico?
The same way he did before he had illegal immigrants to hire. Ultimately, if he cannot compete, then that is a matter for the market. Also, American farmers do not frequently produce the same kinds of crops that are produced in Mexico. So your suggestion of competition is flawed.
Your opinions and mine are speculation because there no good statistics on the number of undocumented immigrants because they are undocumented. In the article you quoted there are over dozen estimates sited. Since they are undocumented, we do not how many there are. Read one article and they say the're 20 million. Read another and there are 12 million. Read another and there are 10 million. So what does this mean?
You can't determine the crime rate for undocumented immigrants.
You can't determine what percent pays tax.
You can't determine what percent of the workers are undocumented.
You can't determine how much they earn.
You can't determine what percent get welfare.
The fact that the definitive number of illegals is unknown does not mean that estimates about their numbers, and conclusions about the effects their presence has are irrelevant or that we cannot know certain things about illegal immigration. We know that illegal labor suppresses wages for Americans. We know that illegals incur costs for the public. We know that there is crime associated with illegals, because we arrest them. We also know that some things, like domestic violence, are under reported when it comes to illegals. We know that those who work under the table don't pay income taxes. Even though we don't know the exact numbers of illegals in the country, we can still learn a great deal as experts perform research into various things, and we can gain an idea. There is nothing unreasonable about this, and it would in fact be unreasonable to conclude that since we don't know the exact numbers then we cannot or should not seek out the information or use the information that is gathered. Based on the position you've now claimed, no position can be justified, and nobody can reasonably come to a decision on the matter, including yourself.
About all we know for sure is how many are arrested and deported. Everything else is a guess and from the wide disparity of information on the Internet, I'd say those guesses are pretty unreliable.
[/QUOTE]Of course American's will do the crappy jobs if the pay is high enough. If the farmer has to pay $12 an hour instead of $7, his cost go up dramatically. Now, how does he compete with imports from Mexico?
The same way he did before he had illegal immigrants to hire. Ultimately, if he cannot compete, then that is a matter for the market. Also, American farmers do not frequently produce the same kinds of crops that are produced in Mexico. So your suggestion of competition is flawed.
Your opinions and mine are speculation because there no good statistics on the number of undocumented immigrants because they are undocumented. In the article you quoted there are over dozen estimates sited. Since they are undocumented, we do not how many there are. Read one article and they say the're 20 million. Read another and there are 12 million. Read another and there are 10 million. So what does this mean?
You can't determine the crime rate for undocumented immigrants.
You can't determine what percent pays tax.
You can't determine what percent of the workers are undocumented.
You can't determine how much they earn.
You can't determine what percent get welfare.
The fact that the definitive number of illegals is unknown does not mean that estimates about their numbers, and conclusions about the effects their presence has are irrelevant or that we cannot know certain things about illegal immigration. We know that illegal labor suppresses wages for Americans. We know that illegals incur costs for the public. We know that there is crime associated with illegals, because we arrest them. We also know that some things, like domestic violence, are under reported when it comes to illegals. We know that those who work under the table don't pay income taxes. Even though we don't know the exact numbers of illegals in the country, we can still learn a great deal as experts perform research into various things, and we can gain an idea. There is nothing unreasonable about this, and it would in fact be unreasonable to conclude that since we don't know the exact numbers then we cannot or should not seek out the information or use the information that is gathered. Based on the position you've now claimed, no position can be justified, and nobody can reasonably come to a decision on the matter, including yourself.
About all we know for sure is how many are arrested and deported. Everything else is a guess and from the wide disparity of information on the Internet, I'd say those guesses are pretty unreliable.
Immigration laws whether US or Mexican may be legal but they are often not just.Activists blast Mexico's immigration law
By Chris Hawley, USA TODAY
TULTITLN, Mexico Arizona's new law forcing local police to take a greater role in enforcing immigration law has caused a lot of criticism from Mexico, the largest single source of illegal immigrants in the United States.
But in Mexico, illegal immigrants receive terrible treatment from corrupt Mexican authorities, say people involved in the system.
And Mexico has a law that is no different from Arizona's that empowers local police to check the immigration documents of people suspected of not being in the country legally.
"There (in the United States), they'll deport you," Hector Vázquez, an illegal immigrant from Honduras, said as he rested in a makeshift camp with other migrants under a highway bridge in Tultitlán. "In Mexico they'll probably let you go, but they'll beat you up and steal everything you've got first."
Activists blast Mexico's immigration law - USATODAY.com
Soon, LA RAZA will demand that the United States taxpayer pay damages to the "poor" Mexicans that had to return to Mexico!
