Obama was wrong - 14,000 people do not lose Health Insurance every day

[Oddball]

You could do the same....Throwing stones and all that.

Like I asked in my previous post, where do you think that money came from??

What does lining the pockets of SBA bureaucrats produce that anyone wants to buy??

I never said I know everything, I've said it in the past as well. The only reason I even originally got involved with this Bitter is because you seem to think you're a know-it-all on economics, and therefore are never wrong, ever. (Plus it's better then going back and forth with you playing thought nazi.)

Yes, I know where the money comes from. Secondly, care to proof that second statement with some evidence.

Which second statement??


You do act as though you know everything....Take it from me, I know..... I was once an 18-year old know-it-all and got my ass kicked by actual reality.

I don't know everything about economics (and those who claim to know as much as they think they do really don't know shit). That said, I know a hell of a lot more than you about the subject through osmosis, let alone the texts I've taken in on the subject.

Quite frankly, I'm certain you don't know where the money comes from. But if you really are interested in where it does come from, buy and read Creature from Jekyll Island (softbound book)

 

[DiveCon]

yeah, because the government is the only place the loans money to businesses

Never said it was. However, yes or no, this program has been more of a help then a hurt for the American people and the American economy since it's creation?

hard to say, since we dont have an example where it wasnt there

 

[Oddball]

yeah, because the government is the only place the loans money to businesses

Never said it was. However, yes or no, this program has been more of a help then a hurt for the American people and the American economy since it's creation?

No.

Opportunity costs.....Bureaucrats produce nothing of added value for the economy.

 

[Modbert]

Which second statement??


You do act as though you know everything....Take it from me, I know..... I was once an 18-year old know-it-all and got my ass kicked by actual reality.

I don't know everything about economics (and those who claim to know as much as they think they do really don't know shit). That said, I know a hell of a lot more than you about the subject through osmosis, let alone the texts I've taken in on the subject.

Quite frankly, I'm certain you don't know where the money comes from. But if you really are interested in where it does come from, buy and read Creature from Jekyll Island (softbound book)

The lining of the pockets statement.

I've had that book recommended to me before, I've been meaning to read it as it is on my books to read list. It's a Libertarian favorite but a favorite in general too.

Dude, I seriously recommend to just relax every once in a while though. Yes, this is a Political Discussion Forum but it doesn't mean you got to be serious all the time.

I mean seriously, you're more depressing to read posts from at times then this picture I found when I was looking for a new avatar picture earlier:



Be more like this:

 

[Modbert]

No.

Opportunity costs.....Bureaucrats produce nothing of added value for the economy.

The money was better off going to these businesses as loans then out as welfare or other aid programs that the people who lost these jobs from these businesses would of needed.

 

[Oddball]

Which second statement??


You do act as though you know everything....Take it from me, I know..... I was once an 18-year old know-it-all and got my ass kicked by actual reality.

I don't know everything about economics (and those who claim to know as much as they think they do really don't know shit). That said, I know a hell of a lot more than you about the subject through osmosis, let alone the texts I've taken in on the subject.

Quite frankly, I'm certain you don't know where the money comes from. But if you really are interested in where it does come from, buy and read Creature from Jekyll Island (softbound book)

The lining of the pockets statement.

I've had that book recommended to me before, I've been meaning to read it as it is on my books to read list. It's a Libertarian favorite but a favorite in general too.

Dude, I seriously recommend to just relax every once in a while though. Yes, this is a Political Discussion Forum but it doesn't mean you got to be serious all the time.

I mean seriously, you're more depressing to read posts from at times then this picture I found when I was looking for a new avatar picture earlier

Bubba, I'm relaxed practically beyond repair.

That you've found my posts depressing says more about you than it does about me.... Anyone who really knows me knows that I'm the king of the positive waves.

It's not my fault that you don't have enough life experiences to mistrust the mere politicians and bureaucrats, whom you seem so eager to want to run your life..

 

[Oddball]

No.

Opportunity costs.....Bureaucrats produce nothing of added value for the economy.

The money was better off going to these businesses as loans then out as welfare or other aid programs that the people who lost these jobs from these businesses would of needed.

Baloney.

Google "broken window theory".

 

[Modbert]

I'm relaxed practically beyond repair.

That you've found my posts depressing says more about you than it does about me.... Anyone who really knows me knows that I'm the king of the positive waves.

It's not my fault that you don't have enough life experiences to mistrust the mere politicians and bureaucrats, whom you seem so eager to want to run your life..

Well outside threads about politics you seem relaxed but in threads over politics you seem sort of bitter and angry. Maybe I was taking it wrong but I just haven't seen you just given a joke in a politics thread. I mean I've seen you joke around, just 2 days ago for example when we were trolling the nazi.

I'm not eager for anyone to run my life but my own. You seemed to not have read my words about the majority of politicians on here and such. However, there are still a good few apples out there.

 

[Modbert]

Baloney.

Google "broken window theory".

I was wondering when that theory was going to be brought up. The difference between that theory, and this situation is there isn't kind of negative thing being done in the first place.

Interesting thing about the broken window theory though, if we did live in a utopia, Capitalism would die out eventually.

At this point Dude, I'm heading to bed. It's been an.. interesting conversation with you and DiveCon to say the least. If you want, we'll continue this later today.

 

[Oddball]

Baloney.

Google "broken window theory".

I was wondering when that theory was going to be brought up. The difference between that theory, and this situation is there isn't kind of negative thing being done in the first place.

Interesting thing about the broken window theory though, if we did live in a utopia, Capitalism would die out eventually.

At this point Dude, I'm heading to bed. It's been an.. interesting conversation with you and DiveCon to say the least. If you want, we'll continue this later today.

Damn...You really are naïve.

The negative thing is the opportunity costs to the already productive businesses.

The financial resources taken from those businesses could otherwise be put into production of goods of increased value (not to mention wages for employees), rather than just going to tax collectors and SBA bureaucrats, who produce NOTHING.

And even if Utopia were an option (which it isn't and invoking it is a total red herring), I'd be really interested in hearing this theory of how capitalism would die off were Utopia possible.

 

[auditor0007]

COBRA makes a limited kind of sens for those who've made enough to pay for it while unemployed.

Not a clue what percentage of workers losing their jobs pay for COBRA, but I'm betting its a very small percentage of all those who lose their jobs.

Health care saving plans?

Are you serious?

Who the fuck makes enough money to save for that heart attack or major health problem that sooner or later we all experience?

Maybe pne out of a thousand people?

Very few people can pay for homes, cars, and education out-of-pocket either...So what??

Will you please enlighten all of us as to who will finance a triple bypass or cancer treatment?

 

[auditor0007]

Actually, the number of people who lose Health Insurance a day is on average 15,238 a day.

PolitiFact | Obama claims 14,000 lose health insurance every day

It's worse than that. Obama increased taxes on cigarettes which is a tax on the poor, and the minimum wage just went up which has been proven to increase unemployment.

Honestly, the minimum wage is so low currently that if a business can't afford to pay it, then that business is most likely unviable. I live in Toledo, which economically is about as depressed as anywhere in the US, and very few companies here start anyone out at minimum wage. Most start higher than the minimum, although that may now change with the small increase in the minimum wage. When I was living in Denver, the fast food restaurants all were paying over $8 per hour.

I'm sure there are some businesses that count on low labor costs, and this may have a small effect on them. However, if they provide health insurance, then the cost of health insurance has certainly been doing much more longterm harm than this minimum wage increase will. And last of all, for all those who earn minimum wage, they spend all of it, so it will give them just a bit more spending power which they will use, and that is not bad for the economy.

 

[auditor0007]

Yeah, why is it that the left thinks they are "Entitled" to anything? You are entitled to die, and everything else you must make for yourself. Nobody owes you jackshit.

That statement made me laugh. What about this?

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

We suddenly don't have these things Soaring?

Wow.......Just wow.

You have a right to peruse it....Not force others to give it to you.

You have a right to life. Without adequate healthcare, many lose that right. It doesn't say you have a right to pursue life; it says you have a right to life. Had advanced healthcare been existent in their time, do you think they would have suggested that society has no obligation at all to the health of its citizens?

Of course, we know that so many of you believe the government shouldn't even guarantee that our water and air is clean. We should just let the free market take care of that too. And we shouldn't force minimum safety standards in the workplace either. Let the free market determine how safe our workers are. And by God, we should never have set standards for overtime pay for workers either. Yea, we know how you think.

 

[auditor0007]

COBRA makes a limited kind of sens for those who've made enough to pay for it while unemployed.

Not a clue what percentage of workers losing their jobs pay for COBRA, but I'm betting its a very small percentage of all those who lose their jobs.

Health care saving plans?

Are you serious?

Who the fuck makes enough money to save for that heart attack or major health problem that sooner or later we all experience?

Maybe pne out of a thousand people?

Two years ago, my wife had a stint put in her heart. Had I not had very good insurance, all the property that I have aquired, and intend to use to buy my home to retire to, would be gone.

Over twenty years ago, within a period of ten months, my wife had two major operations, and my daughter had major orthodontal surgery. I had a Health Care plan that paid 80%. It took me six years, and the remortgage of one property to pay off the 20%.

Our present health care system is designed to move wealth from the middle class and working poor to the wealthy. And, sadly, that is all too much the story of our present economic system. We are rewarding the parasites.

If our forefathers saw the disparity of wealth in this country today, they would be appalled. Somewhere along the way, we lost sight of the fact that destoying middle America will lead to its downfall. That doesn't mean the government needs to control every aspect of our lives, but it must make certain that the vast majority has reasonable access to the necessities of life.

 

[Navy1960]

Virginia Convention of Delegates on June 12, 1776 and written by George Mason, is:

That all men are by nature equally free and independent, and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.

The United States Declaration of Independence, which was primarily written by Thomas Jefferson, was adopted by the Second Continental Congress on July 4, 1776. The text of the second section of the Declaration of Independence reads:

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

What part of that, those of you who think that you have a right to healthcare in this nation owed to you by the Federal Govt. is granted? In fact what that statement makes is you have the right to be alive and persue your OWN happiness in freedom. There is NOTHING in the constitution that empowers the federal Govt. or provides you with a right to healthcare. If you wish it to be, then I suggest you advocate a constitutional amendment that 2/3rds of the states must ratify.

 

[auditor0007]

robert, you have left the original premise
not that the program does a valid job, but that it costs more to run than it was projected to

A car costs much more than it was projected to cost fifty years ago. So does a house. So does just about everything in society. Oh, and healthcare? Who would have thought it would ever cost this much? Looks like the private sector has come in way over budget too. What about a college education? What about he cost of elementary education? Damn, everything costs more today than it did twenty or fifty years ago. I just don't understand it.

Yes, I do realize, government creates a great deal of waste in many programs. Many of these could be cleaned up but it would take voters to really have an impact. Having the government run more programs isn't the answer. Making government bigger isn't the answer. But denying that government should set standards that actually promote the general welfare of its citizens is as wrong as wrong can be.

What I hear from too many of you is that we don't even need the government, that the private market will determine everything. Yea, right. And tell me where that has ever worked?

 

[auditor0007]

Virginia Convention of Delegates on June 12, 1776 and written by George Mason, is:

That all men are by nature equally free and independent, and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.

The United States Declaration of Independence, which was primarily written by Thomas Jefferson, was adopted by the Second Continental Congress on July 4, 1776. The text of the second section of the Declaration of Independence reads:

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

What part of that, those of you who think that you have a right to healthcare in this nation owed to you by the Federal Govt. is granted? In fact what that statement makes is you have the right to be alive and persue your OWN happiness in freedom. There is NOTHING in the constitution that empowers the federal Govt. or provides you with a right to healthcare. If you wish it to be, then I suggest you advocate a constitutional amendment that 2/3rds of the states must ratify.

Again, it states that everyone has a right to life, and without reasonable healthcare, many Americans lose their right to life. That doesn't necessarily mean that the government must provide health insurance with all the bells and whistles to everyone, but it does mean that people shouldn't be denied life saving treatment because they cannot afford it, and yes, that does happen in America, everyday.

 

[johnrocks]

Here,Paul Krugman states that government already controls 60% of healthcare in the USA so why is the "free market" blamed,especially since true individual health insurance only makes up appox. 8% of the total picture when things like group insurance and charity is factored in and even that is tightly regulated by government?
Go to the 3.45 mark and listen,you'll hear the 60% stated.
Charlie Rose - A conversation with Paul Krugman

 

[Navy1960]

Virginia Convention of Delegates on June 12, 1776 and written by George Mason, is:

That all men are by nature equally free and independent, and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.

The United States Declaration of Independence, which was primarily written by Thomas Jefferson, was adopted by the Second Continental Congress on July 4, 1776. The text of the second section of the Declaration of Independence reads:

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

What part of that, those of you who think that you have a right to healthcare in this nation owed to you by the Federal Govt. is granted? In fact what that statement makes is you have the right to be alive and persue your OWN happiness in freedom. There is NOTHING in the constitution that empowers the federal Govt. or provides you with a right to healthcare. If you wish it to be, then I suggest you advocate a constitutional amendment that 2/3rds of the states must ratify.

Again, it states that everyone has a right to life, and without reasonable healthcare, many Americans lose their right to life. That doesn't necessarily mean that the government must provide health insurance with all the bells and whistles to everyone, but it does mean that people shouldn't be denied life saving treatment because they cannot afford it, and yes, that does happen in America, everyday.

You misunderstand the meaning in our form of Govt. as to what your right to life means. Your right to life is your own my friend and not the Govts. to see to it that your have that life. That is where the flaw is in your thinking. If your fellow citizens are as a result of not having healthcare coverage losing their life that is not losing your "right" to life under the constituion. If that that were the case, each person that dies for any reason could seek redress from the Govt. everytime a loved one dies for any reason. What it means you have the right to live and be alive and your LIFE is your own!!. If you want people to be able to afford healthcare coverage then address the costs of healthcare coverage by addressing the things that cause healthcare costs to rise. In fact the only people entitled under the constitution to healthcare are "prisoners".

 

[xotoxi]

Obama was wrong - 14,000 people do not lose Health Insurance every day

Actually, the number of people who lose Health Insurance a day is on average 15,238 a day.

That lying sack of shit!!!