Obama retakes oath of office

[Modbert]

Wrong. In a situation where the President dies or becomes incapacitated, the line of succession takes effect immediately. Those in line have already taken an oath to fulfill the role of President, as it is part of their duty in their current position. Basically, Condoleeza had already taken an oath to be President if those before her were unable to serve.

In 1916, the State Department determined that "there is no interval between the term of one President and the beginning of his successor, although there may be a slight interval when the executive power is suspended." Therefore, a delay in taking the oath of office would not leave a hiatus in the office of the President, but the new president would not have the constitutional power to perform any executive function until the oath of office was taken

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=2&res=9C00E3D7143BE633A25756C1A9679D946796D6CF

Perhaps this is what you speak of? But the 20th amendment fixed it.

 

[Jon]

So, wait...if he didn't take the oath, would any decisions he made between 12:00 and the time he took the oath be without merit?

 

[Modbert]

Rob, you're wrong. No one officially becomes a "successor" until they have taken an oath. A delay in oath recital at precisely 12:00 leaves the next in the chain of succession as acting president. Biden had taken the oath before 12:00, so had Obama not done so for whatever reason, Biden would be the acting president. If NEITHER had taken the oath for whatever reason, Pelosi would be acting president because she was in the official chain of succession.

No one ever mistook the constitution for being perfect, and the 20th amendment is no different in that case. It is unclearly written, and is obviously diluding critical thought process here.

You can't be a successor of anything if you haven't taken your required oath.

So in that case, Condi wouldn't be President like Gord is stating.

And how is it unclearly written? Do you know which part I'm speaking of in which he automatically becomes President according to it at noon?

 

[Modbert]

So, wait...if he didn't take the oath, would any decisions he made between 12:00 and the time he took the oath be without merit?

Back then? Yes

But I'm pretty sure that was one of the reasons for the lame duck amendment put in after.

 

[Paulie]

You might want to read the amendment again bud! No where does it say that Vice President is President until the President elect takes his oath. I will write is again " and the terms of their successors shall then begin" refering to the part at the beginning where it says "The terms of the President and Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January"

20th Amendment, Section 3.

If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President. If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.

Obama doesn't officially qualify until he takes the oath, Luissa. It's constitutionally required, and explicitly states so in Article 2, Section 1.

Obama qualified upon reciting the oath, so for a brief amount of time, according to your 20th amendment that you're so heavily leaning on, Biden was president for about ~5 minutes.

It's not that hard to figure out and get to the bottom of. The 20th amendment does not preclude nor nullify, the oath of office clause in Article 2, Section 1, or it would explicitly state such.

 

[Gord]

Wrong again, she failed to take the Oath that would be required of the President under your logic.

Either one of two things:

1.) Obama has not yet taken the oath to be President. TO BE PRESIDENT HE MUST TAKE THE OATH. Since Condi did not take the oath, she was not president.

2.) Obama automatically becomes President at 12:00. Condi does not become President.

Either way, you fail.

From how I understand the succession, the Secretary of State is under the umbrella of the previous administration and as a designated successor to the position of POTUS, it automatically passes on when the president ceases for whatever reason to be the president. (She has already sworn allegiance.) This is to ensure there is always a president regardless of prefunctories which may not be immediately implementable in the case of an emergency situation.

 

[Jon]

Obama qualified upon reciting the oath, so for a brief amount of time, according to your 20th amendment that you're so heavily leaning on, Biden was president for about ~5 minutes.

Again, or was he? Biden took oath to act if the sitting President could not. With no sitting President, does Biden's succession even exist?

 

[Paulie]

From how I understand the succession, the Secretary of State is under the umbrella of the previous administration and as a designated successor to the position of POTUS, it automatically passes on when the president ceases for whatever reason to be the president. (She has already sworn allegiance.) This is to ensure there is always a president regardless of prefunctories which may not be immediately implementable in the case of an emergency situation.

Yes, you are right. Upon doing a little investigating, I found that out also. Rice was president for about 1 minute, until Biden recited the oath, at which time he was president until Obama recited it.

The 12:00 issue deals more with who ISN'T president ANYMORE, than it does with who IS. Who ultimately ends up being president relies upon who has taken the required oath. Until such time, SOMEONE has to legally be the acting president, and in that case it was Rice until Biden and Obama recited it.

Makes a strong case for avoiding any delay whatsoever, if for no other reason than to avoid confusion.

 

[Paulie]

Again, or was he? Biden took oath to act if the sitting President could not. With no sitting President, does Biden's succession even exist?

According to the 20th, yes. That is something clearly stated. Read that section I quoted to Luissa a few posts up.

The whole thing really is quite confusing, but as always, the constitution provides the answer in the end

 

[Jon]

So, Rice was the 44th President, Biden was the 45th, and Obama is the 46th?

Oh, my head hurts.

 

[Modbert]

Yes, you are right. Upon doing a little investigating, I found that out also. Rice was president for about 1 minute, until Biden recited the oath, at which time he was president until Obama recited it.

The 12:00 issue deals more with who ISN'T president ANYMORE, than it does with who IS. Who ultimately ends up being president relies upon who has taken the required oath. Until such time, SOMEONE has to legally be the acting president, and in that case it was Rice until Biden and Obama recited it.

Makes a strong case for avoiding any delay whatsoever, if for no other reason than to avoid confusion.

20th Amendment:

Section 1. The terms of the President and Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January, and the terms of Senators and Representatives at noon on the 3d day of January, of the years in which such terms would have ended if this article had not been ratified; and the terms of their successors shall then begin.

Their successors being the President and Vice President-Elect.

Section 3. If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President. If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.

I believe this is why it was put in:

Originally, under Article I, Section 4, Clause 2, the Congress was required to convene at least once each year in December. That resulted in a mandatory lame duck session following each election.

So therefore Condi doesn't qualify even if she took the oath supposedly months or years ago. Because Bush's term expired at 12, therefore hers did as well. Therefore, she would of needed to retake the oath to qualify being President.

 

[Paulie]

So, Rice was the 44th President, Biden was the 45th, and Obama is the 46th?

Oh, my head hurts.

Well this isn't the first time this has happened, so if you want to get technical, that number is probably even a couple higher.

I suppose in a literal, technical sense, Obama isn't actually the 44th.

I find it funny that only democrats have challenged this, too. It's like the technicality of the issue somehow detracts from Obama's ultimate worth or something.

It's just a technicality, people!

 

[Jon]

Their successors being the President and Vice President-Elect.

Only if the successors qualify for the position. No oath, no qualification.

 

[Jon]

Well this isn't the first time this has happened, so if you want to get technical, that number is probably even a couple higher.

I suppose in a literal, technical sense, Obama isn't actually the 44th.

I find it funny that only democrats have challenged this, too. It's like the technicality of the issue somehow detracts from Obama's ultimate worth or something.

It's just a technicality, people!

Oh, didn't Cheney also serve as President for a couple of days while Bush was high on anesthesia drugs or something?

 

[Modbert]

Well this isn't the first time this has happened, so if you want to get technical, that number is probably even a couple higher.

I suppose in a literal, technical sense, Obama isn't actually the 44th.

I find it funny that only democrats have challenged this, too. It's like the technicality of the issue somehow detracts from Obama's ultimate worth or something.

It's just a technicality, people!

Say that when some wingnut Republican or Democrat would try to make a case of it in court.

 

[Modbert]

Oh, didn't Cheney also serve as President for a couple of days while Bush was high on anesthesia drugs or something?

Yes he did and it was a day.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/321320/top_five_things_dick_cheney_can_do.html

However, I believe executive powers are suspended to a point? And therefore they wouldn't actually be President except in name only?

 

[Jon]

Yes he did and it was a day.

But I think he served two separate times.

 

[Gord]

So, Rice was the 44th President, Biden was the 45th, and Obama is the 46th?

Oh, my head hurts.

Actually I think Rice would be considered an acting president of the previous president under which is her position. And Biden would be an acting president under the presumption of the coming administration of the president elect. So the numbers for the elected presidents would not change.

 

[Paulie]

20th Amendment:



Their successors being the President and Vice President-Elect.



I believe this is why it was put in:



So therefore Condi doesn't qualify even if she took the oath supposedly months or years ago. Because Bush's term expired at 12, therefore hers did as well. Therefore, she would of needed to retake the oath to qualify being President.

You may be right, who knows. But this only precludes Rice. That amendment still clearly states that Biden was president until Obama qualified, which would require him taking the oath that the constitution REQUIRES him to take.

 

[jillian]

Biden is also a successor. He had sworn in before 12:00, so until Obama swore in, Biden was literally the president during that brief time. You do realize that, right?

Do you make this stuff up as you go along? George Bush was president until exactly 12 noon on January 20, 2009. At that exact moment, by operation of law, Barack Obama became president.

The oath has to be taken, apparently, before he can EXECUTE his responsibilites as president. (at least according to Article III). However, I suspect that if the issue were ever to go before the Justices (including the one who botched the oath in the first place) they would hold that he was properly president at the stroke of noon.