Obama/Reagan -- a study...

[midcan5]

I believe the most salient point in this little thread, is that the scope and import of the Reagan accomplishments are indisputable. He was, as one historian somewhat recently put it, "The last great gentleman president."

"Gentleman president?" That is an interesting quality to admire in a president. I would have to give that distinction to Carter, who was a gentleman and a moral man. But you know his reputation.

I give Reagan credit for finally raising taxes but by this time the poor man was too far into Alzheimer's disease; had he had all his facilities, I wonder what he would have thought had he lived to see the outcome of his policies?

"Also forgotten is Reagan's own embarrassing propensity to just make things up. Reagan was a dunce and a fabricator. One of his most famous assertions was, "Trees cause more pollution than automobiles do," and he maintained, wrongly, that sulfur dioxide emitted from Mount St. Helens was greater than that emitted by cars over a 10-year period. (In one day, cars emit 40 times what Mount St. Helens released in a day even at its peak activity.) In 1985, Reagan praised the P.W. Botha's apartheid regime of South Africa for eliminating segregation, a blunder then-Press Secretary Larry Speakes had to correct a few days later." Ronald Reagan The Enduring Lies of Ronald Reagan Though the GOP continues to canonize the fortieth president, we can't forget his legacy as a liar and a foreign policy flop by Susan J, Douglas

Ronald Reagan page
Reagan administration scandals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[DamnYankee]

Reagan began the destruction of the middle class, and he started the militaristic hubris that lead to Iraq. For that and for his inept tax policies which made us a debtor nation, I rank him the worst president in modern times. Bush Jr was not possible without Reagan. Even S&L happened under his watch, the start and a key example of what happens when regulation is weakened and greed is the motivator.

Ronald Reagan's Legacy
Firedoglake » Newsflash: Ronald Reagan Raised Taxes (You Idiots)

Started militaristic hubris? Perhaps he learned from one of his predecessors.

In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility - I welcome it.
John F. Kennedy

The cost of freedom is always high, but Americans have always paid it. And one path we shall never choose, and that is the path of surrender, or submission.
John F. Kennedy

The path we have chosen for the present is full of hazards, as all paths are. The cost of freedom is always high, but Americans have always paid it. And one path we shall never choose, and that is the path of surrender, or submission.
John F. Kennedy

There are risks and costs to action. But they are far less than the long range risks of comfortable inaction.
John F. Kennedy

When written in Chinese, the word "crisis" is composed of two characters. One represents danger and the other represents opportunity.
John F. Kennedy

 

[MaggieMae]

I believe the most salient point in this little thread, is that the scope and import of the Reagan accomplishments are indisputable. He was, as one historian somewhat recently put it, "The last great gentleman president."

Whether or not Obama will rise to the level of accomplishment of Reagan remains to be seen - he is far unproven to this point to make such a call.

I agree. (Shocking, I know.) But I'm at least willing to see what unfolds over the next few years rather than persecuting Obama right out of the gate. He is a president more interested in domestic policy, which has taken a back seat to everything else for far too long. I'm uncomfortable about the amount of money it will take, but I remain optimistic about the results. Obama is attacking headlong the three critical areas where the U.S. is sadly deficient: Education, health care, energy. Even a new Republican president would need to address all three, and each will take putting fat in at the beginning to get up to speed.

 

[DiamondDave]

I believe the most salient point in this little thread, is that the scope and import of the Reagan accomplishments are indisputable. He was, as one historian somewhat recently put it, "The last great gentleman president."

Whether or not Obama will rise to the level of accomplishment of Reagan remains to be seen - he is far unproven to this point to make such a call.

I agree. (Shocking, I know.) But I'm at least willing to see what unfolds over the next few years rather than persecuting Obama right out of the gate. He is a president more interested in domestic policy, which has taken a back seat to everything else for far too long. I'm uncomfortable about the amount of money it will take, but I remain optimistic about the results. Obama is attacking headlong the three critical areas where the U.S. is sadly deficient: Education, health care, energy. Even a new Republican president would need to address all three, and each will take putting fat in at the beginning to get up to speed.

You should be uncomfortable of the amount of money he and the DEM congress is MAKING it take... not that economic turn around MUST take that kind of governmental spending

Also... we are not "deficient" in education, health care, nor energy.... can we improve public education for minors? Yep.... are there problems in the health care system? Yep. But health care is not a right nor is the responsibility for your person health care and upkeep the responsibility of others or the government.... And should the country and businesses try and become more energy independent and look into advancing technology for our energy needs? Yep. But not with the global warming fear mongering as the engine powering it.

 

[MaggieMae]

Some interesting numbers and economic strategy appear here, which I think Reaganites love to ignore:

Higher Taxes: Will The Republicans Cry Wolf Again? - Forbes.com

 

[Sinatra]

It is a shame this thread has once again devolved into repeated political bashing myth. It is the great frustration of this medium that so few do so little to expand the understanding of their own history.

Please explore further the facts of the Reagan years - they were an undeniable success. Perfect? No, there is no political era where perfection was attained.

As to the specifics of the Reagan economy, it was the bottom income earners who saw the greatest growth in incomes under Reagan. Why do you think Reagan was able to score such a historically huge election victory in 1984? The middle class was thriving under Reagan - thus the emergence of the Reagan Democrats - middle class blue collar union members who bucked the voting request of their union leaders and supported Reagan at the ballot.

The bottom earners in America saw their inflation-adjusted incomes grow by 77% from the late 1970s to the mid 1980s.

The second lowest income bracket in America saw their incomes grow by 37% in the same time period.

The third lowest income bracket saw income growth of 20%.

What of the highest income bracket? Well, their income grew by just 5%.

The upward mobility of vast numbers of Americans during the 1980s was a testament to the Reagan economic record. Remove the constraints of government and allow citizens the opportunity for economic prosperity - and millions of Americans did just that - approximately 90% of working Americans moved into a higher income bracket from the start of the 1980s to the conclusion of the Reagan era.

As a point of comparison, is you take per person GDP figures of the Reagan era, we see a considerable annual growth of 3.2%. During the Clinton era - a time of economic prosperity as well, we see a far less impressive per person GDP growth rate of 2.3%. Solid, but far from spectacular. Job creation during the Reagan years was approximately 20 million. During the Clinton era, approximately 16 1/2 million. (Both good mind you - but the Reagan years were substantially better.)

Regarding tax policy, the media has made much over the fact that the top 1% of income earners in America saw their tax burden decrease by 30% under Reagan. This is quite true. What so often goes unreported is that the top 20% of income earners saw their tax burden decrease by 35%, and the middle and lowest income earners saw decreases of 64% and 264% respectively. (this was a result of Reagan raising the earned income credit by 300% and doubling the personal exemption rate)

As far as the issue of debt, it is simple fact that the national debt increased under Reagan, and the Democrat Congress. What is so often left out of the equation is that while defense spending increased 50% under Reagan, it was the far greater means tested entitlement spending increases of 102% that was the greatest contributor to the national debt. And it should be noted that at the conclusion of the Cold War, defense spending was then slashed by 15%, while non-security national spending continued to escalate. (And today - well, it has hit all time highs.) It was this 15% drop in defense spending that equated to the peace dividend enjoyed by Bush I and most notably, Clinton. Unfortunately, domestic spending soon outpaced the peace dividend gains, and then when combined with the ever greater spending of Bush II, well, we have now come to the Obama era which while quick to condemn Bush II's fiscal irresponsiblity, appears more than willing to take such irresponsibility even further...)

But getting back to Reagan, while federal revenues rose substantially as a result of his tax policies, so too did overall federal spending. A great deal of blame can be laid at the feet of the Democrat Congress, who repeatedly demanded increases in their proposed budgets if they were to include Reagan's requests for increased defense spending, each side willingly compromising for the furthering of their respective agendas.

That being said, the Reagan record must too be held accountable for these deficits, and history will note that accounting - though far more fairly and in proper historical context than the sadly slanted and misinformed anti-Reagan rants that a few in here ignorantly engage in.

So let the true record show that lower and middle class Americans - at least those choosing to take advantage of the opportunities presented them, thrived during the Reagan era, with nearly 90% substantially improving their incomes during Reagan's two terms.

Will Obama rise to the level of Reagan's success? Will he grow into the role of President so he can move with the same comfortable self-assurance and certainty of path that marked the Reagan years?

That remains to be seen. At present, like Reagan, Mr. Obama faces considerable economic challenges at the outset of his presidency. Unlike Reagan, Obama has chosen to expand the government as a means of growing opportunity. Reagan of course viewed government as a natural contradiction to individual opportunity.

History has proven Reagan right on his watch - it remains to be seen if history will be so kind to Obama on his.



"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize it bears a very close resemblance to the first."

-Ronald Reagan

 

[Sarah G]

I believe the most salient point in this little thread, is that the scope and import of the Reagan accomplishments are indisputable. He was, as one historian somewhat recently put it, "The last great gentleman president."

Whether or not Obama will rise to the level of accomplishment of Reagan remains to be seen - he is far unproven to this point to make such a call.

Oh yes. He was certainly a very nice man. Some Republicans really like to pretend that he is one of our greatest presidents and that is simply not true.

Obama could be, time will tell.

 

[del]

Here's a quick review of the Reagan years, links to factual info at the site:



Reagan worship is misplaced, imo. You all keep saying we worship Obama so much, it isn't that as much as we're attempting to stop you all from comparing any of yours to ours and actually feeling superior.

A little home made amateur whack-job site... priceless

Goes to show why you have your 'belief' in things that are not based in fact

Nobody is saying to worship Reagan... I'm not even saying that you as a far lefty should 'like' his accomplishments... but he has a long list of actual accomplishments, and to say otherwise simply points out extreme partisanship

That site has been there for at least 10 years. It is factual, but way to minimize anything that makes you uncomfortable.

Good you're not saying to worship Reagan, I'm not saying to worship Obama either but it always seems to bother you on the Right whenever Obama is mentioned at all.

so has the onion.

 

[driveby]

It has been said that Obama studied the Reagan handbook and admired Reagans skill at governing---some would call it manipulating. hmmmm,


what did Reagan do? I say he got blue collar Dems and others to vote identity over self-interest. What is Obama doing...copying Reagan? I say yes, Obama is getting many a progressive and liberal and others to vote/go along with a sense of belonging---identity--- over self-interest.

Obama is much brighter than Reagan. Reagan was a figurehead, a script reader, very lazy and had no ideas. He was much more like your other party leader, Rush Limbaugh.

Obama is substantive, thoughtful, very smart, and has a lot of energy. He is his own man and unique so quit trying to take credit for him.

Wow, someone majored in Sealybobo Political Science 101 ......

 

[Sarah G]

A little home made amateur whack-job site... priceless

Goes to show why you have your 'belief' in things that are not based in fact

Nobody is saying to worship Reagan... I'm not even saying that you as a far lefty should 'like' his accomplishments... but he has a long list of actual accomplishments, and to say otherwise simply points out extreme partisanship

That site has been there for at least 10 years. It is factual, but way to minimize anything that makes you uncomfortable.

Good you're not saying to worship Reagan, I'm not saying to worship Obama either but it always seems to bother you on the Right whenever Obama is mentioned at all.

so has the onion.

Yes, so has the Onion. The Bonzo site is pretty good, just saying that it is all lies and comedy doesn't make it so.

 

[Sarah G]

It has been said that Obama studied the Reagan handbook and admired Reagans skill at governing---some would call it manipulating. hmmmm,


what did Reagan do? I say he got blue collar Dems and others to vote identity over self-interest. What is Obama doing...copying Reagan? I say yes, Obama is getting many a progressive and liberal and others to vote/go along with a sense of belonging---identity--- over self-interest.

Obama is much brighter than Reagan. Reagan was a figurehead, a script reader, very lazy and had no ideas. He was much more like your other party leader, Rush Limbaugh.

Obama is substantive, thoughtful, very smart, and has a lot of energy. He is his own man and unique so quit trying to take credit for him.

Wow, someone majored in Sealybobo Political Science 101 ......

Well, you do seem like his counterpart but I wouldn't say you necessarily majored in Sealybobo Political Science 101...

 

[DiamondDave]

It is nothing more than a partisan whack-job site...

 

[DiamondDave]

I believe the most salient point in this little thread, is that the scope and import of the Reagan accomplishments are indisputable. He was, as one historian somewhat recently put it, "The last great gentleman president."

Whether or not Obama will rise to the level of accomplishment of Reagan remains to be seen - he is far unproven to this point to make such a call.

Oh yes. He was certainly a very nice man. Some Republicans really like to pretend that he is one of our greatest presidents and that is simply not true.

Obama could be, time will tell.

As stated.. you like to have your beliefs that have nothing to do with facts... you would rather have your hype and myth

 

[Sarah G]

I believe the most salient point in this little thread, is that the scope and import of the Reagan accomplishments are indisputable. He was, as one historian somewhat recently put it, "The last great gentleman president."

Whether or not Obama will rise to the level of accomplishment of Reagan remains to be seen - he is far unproven to this point to make such a call.

Oh yes. He was certainly a very nice man. Some Republicans really like to pretend that he is one of our greatest presidents and that is simply not true.

Obama could be, time will tell.

As stated.. you like to have your beliefs that have nothing to do with facts... you would rather have your hype and myth

Reagan hero worship is all about hype and myth.

 

[del]

That site has been there for at least 10 years. It is factual, but way to minimize anything that makes you uncomfortable.

Good you're not saying to worship Reagan, I'm not saying to worship Obama either but it always seems to bother you on the Right whenever Obama is mentioned at all.

so has the onion.

Yes, so has the Onion. The Bonzo site is pretty good, just saying that it is all lies and comedy doesn't make it so.

i'll, uh, take your word for it. certainly what you've posted seems very scholarly and nonpartisan.

 

[DiamondDave]

Oh yes. He was certainly a very nice man. Some Republicans really like to pretend that he is one of our greatest presidents and that is simply not true.

Obama could be, time will tell.

As stated.. you like to have your beliefs that have nothing to do with facts... you would rather have your hype and myth

Reagan hero worship is all about hype and myth.

As stated over and over and over and over again.. the long list of Reagan's accomplishments are irrefutable... Whether you like them or not... the fact that he accomplished much during his two terms is not myth

Oh... and of course your Obama "hero worship" is not myth but based on accomplishment and fact

What a partisan hack

 

[DC42]

I believe the most salient point in this little thread, is that the scope and import of the Reagan accomplishments are indisputable. He was, as one historian somewhat recently put it, "The last great gentleman president."

Whether or not Obama will rise to the level of accomplishment of Reagan remains to be seen - he is far unproven to this point to make such a call.

I agree. (Shocking, I know.) But I'm at least willing to see what unfolds over the next few years rather than persecuting Obama right out of the gate. He is a president more interested in domestic policy, which has taken a back seat to everything else for far too long. I'm uncomfortable about the amount of money it will take, but I remain optimistic about the results. Obama is attacking headlong the three critical areas where the U.S. is sadly deficient: Education, health care, energy. Even a new Republican president would need to address all three, and each will take putting fat in at the beginning to get up to speed.

You should be uncomfortable of the amount of money he and the DEM congress is MAKING it take... not that economic turn around MUST take that kind of governmental spending

Also... we are not "deficient" in education, health care, nor energy.... can we improve public education for minors? Yep.... are there problems in the health care system? Yep. But health care is not a right nor is the responsibility for your person health care and upkeep the responsibility of others or the government.... And should the country and businesses try and become more energy independent and look into advancing technology for our energy needs? Yep. But not with the global warming fear mongering as the engine powering it.

Not deficient in Health care????? Health care does become the responsibility of the government when its become so deregulated it is unaffordable for everyday people!!! Do you know how much one nights stay in a hospital costs?? Approximately $5000 to $7000 where I live and thats probably cheap compared to the rest of the country....How many people have an extra $5000 laying around provided they don't have insurance which is unaffordable for individuals now also??....not many!!!

Public schools in this country are a joke also.... They can't find descent teachers because they don't make descent salaries!!!! And don't even get me started on universities!!!!....They're becoming as bad as health care!!! Tuition at my alma mater went up 21% in one year last year.... How is that not deficient??

Oh yea and energy.... We're still relying on energy created in early 1900s!!! Some of so-called pork you speak of is going to find new energy sources.... I think the country spoke up last election and we're tired of living in the stone age!!! Of course it will cost money to fix these things, but our children will be better off!!!

 

[DiamondDave]

I agree. (Shocking, I know.) But I'm at least willing to see what unfolds over the next few years rather than persecuting Obama right out of the gate. He is a president more interested in domestic policy, which has taken a back seat to everything else for far too long. I'm uncomfortable about the amount of money it will take, but I remain optimistic about the results. Obama is attacking headlong the three critical areas where the U.S. is sadly deficient: Education, health care, energy. Even a new Republican president would need to address all three, and each will take putting fat in at the beginning to get up to speed.

You should be uncomfortable of the amount of money he and the DEM congress is MAKING it take... not that economic turn around MUST take that kind of governmental spending

Also... we are not "deficient" in education, health care, nor energy.... can we improve public education for minors? Yep.... are there problems in the health care system? Yep. But health care is not a right nor is the responsibility for your person health care and upkeep the responsibility of others or the government.... And should the country and businesses try and become more energy independent and look into advancing technology for our energy needs? Yep. But not with the global warming fear mongering as the engine powering it.

Not deficient in Health care????? Health care does become the responsibility of the government when its become so deregulated it is unaffordable for everyday people!!! Do you know how much one nights stay in a hospital costs?? Approximately $5000 to $7000 where I live and thats probably cheap compared to the rest of the country....How many people have an extra $5000 laying around provided they don't have insurance which is unaffordable for individuals now also??....not many!!!

Public schools in this country are a joke also.... They can't find descent teachers because they don't make descent salaries!!!! And don't even get me started on universities!!!!....They're becoming as bad as health care!!! Tuition at my alma mater went up 21% in one year last year.... How is that not deficient??

Oh yea and energy.... We're still relying on energy created in early 1900s!!! Some of so-called pork you speak of is going to find new energy sources.... I think the country spoke up last election and we're tired of living in the stone age!!! Of course it will cost money to fix these things, but our children will be better off!!!

No.. it does not... government, nor other citizens, do not exist in order to provide for your personal care for you.. whether it costs $1 or $10000.... you are the only one responsible for you and your upkeep.. sorry

And on energy... you honestly think that we have had no improvement in technology form the early 1900's? Absolutely laughable... Fire was "created" in the stone age, yet you still cook with it... How barbaric

And government should PROMOTE advances in energy creation... it is not there to just pump taxpayer dollars into it... have incentives for companies to use their resources to research the next energy trends or to improve efficiency... damn straight.... but to throw a bunch of taxpayer money at it?? Nope.. sorry.. don't subscribe to that horse shit

Teacher salaries.... yep.. it's an issue... but as for universities.. when you're going to a university, you are a goddamn adult... meaning it is YOUR responsibility to pay for it or earn a scholarship or whatever else... public paid education for minors, all great... for adults, no freakin' way... and it is not the government's responsibility for tuition costs, nor is it responsible for subsidizing that cost for you... you want it, work a second job, save for a couple years til you can afford it, earn a scholarship, join the Army for the GI Bill, or whatever else... but that is on you, not the government

 

[DC42]

You should be uncomfortable of the amount of money he and the DEM congress is MAKING it take... not that economic turn around MUST take that kind of governmental spending

Also... we are not "deficient" in education, health care, nor energy.... can we improve public education for minors? Yep.... are there problems in the health care system? Yep. But health care is not a right nor is the responsibility for your person health care and upkeep the responsibility of others or the government.... And should the country and businesses try and become more energy independent and look into advancing technology for our energy needs? Yep. But not with the global warming fear mongering as the engine powering it.

Not deficient in Health care????? Health care does become the responsibility of the government when its become so deregulated it is unaffordable for everyday people!!! Do you know how much one nights stay in a hospital costs?? Approximately $5000 to $7000 where I live and thats probably cheap compared to the rest of the country....How many people have an extra $5000 laying around provided they don't have insurance which is unaffordable for individuals now also??....not many!!!

Public schools in this country are a joke also.... They can't find descent teachers because they don't make descent salaries!!!! And don't even get me started on universities!!!!....They're becoming as bad as health care!!! Tuition at my alma mater went up 21% in one year last year.... How is that not deficient??

Oh yea and energy.... We're still relying on energy created in early 1900s!!! Some of so-called pork you speak of is going to find new energy sources.... I think the country spoke up last election and we're tired of living in the stone age!!! Of course it will cost money to fix these things, but our children will be better off!!!

No.. it does not... government, nor other citizens, do not exist in order to provide for your personal care for you.. whether it costs $1 or $10000.... you are the only one responsible for you and your upkeep.. sorry

And on energy... you honestly think that we have had no improvement in technology form the early 1900's? Absolutely laughable... Fire was "created" in the stone age, yet you still cook with it... How barbaric

And government should PROMOTE advances in energy creation... it is not there to just pump taxpayer dollars into it... have incentives for companies to use their resources to research the next energy trends or to improve efficiency... damn straight.... but to throw a bunch of taxpayer money at it?? Nope.. sorry.. don't subscribe to that horse shit

Teacher salaries.... yep.. it's an issue... but as for universities.. when you're going to a university, you are a goddamn adult... meaning it is YOUR responsibility to pay for it or earn a scholarship or whatever else... public paid education for minors, all great... for adults, no freakin' way... and it is not the government's responsibility for tuition costs, nor is it responsible for subsidizing that cost for you... you want it, work a second job, save for a couple years til you can afford it, earn a scholarship, join the Army for the GI Bill, or whatever else... but that is on you, not the government

I agree with you that education is our responsibility!!!...I worked on a farm all my life and saved enough money to pay for what my scholarships didn't cover!!! But it's getting to the point where kids (adults) cannot afford it on what they make by second rate jobs you have while you're in college!!! I didn't say government should pay for it... I say they should regulate the costs to public universities!!! Oh yea and I work for the U.S. government... You wanna hear a complaint I hear EVERY SINGLE day??? Not enough educated young people!!!!!! Wonder why????

I also agree you should take care of yourself.... But not when our doctors and insurance companies are becoming as rich as they are on the expense of people who can't afford it!!! The amount of money they make is ridiculous!!!!!

Oh yea, and thank you for trying to belittle me by taking what I said about energy out of context!!!.... Considering I'm a rocket scientist, I probably don't know that much about energy, but thanks anyways!!!! Ummmm, what I meant was that the same technology created in the early 1900s is still BASICALLY the same technology we use today...It all still relies on the same principles it has become more efficient but not efficient enough and not even close to where it should be!!! Yes, the internal combustion engine was created in the early 1900s, guess what we're still using!!!!..... And you get between 45 to 60% efficiency out of them while polluting our air!!!! But hey, lets keep everything like it is and continue to let the middle class fail....Great Idea!!!

 

[midcan5]

I realize Reagan is a hero for most republicans, face it who else is there? Lincoln? But we have to be honest and for those of us who lived through Reagan, and saw the impact of his policies, it just wasn't good. Firing the air traffic controllers started business on the path to 'screw the employee only money matters' philosophy. Lowering taxes made us a debtor nation, and created the economic condition that caused Bush Sr to lose after one term. The changes in employee rights and deregulation lead us to today's mess. There is no way Reagan can be considered anything more than a actor who became president but continued to believe in make believe. Ironically those who praise him today suffer the same make believe.

CEPR - America Since 1980: A Right Turn Leading to a Dead End

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/United-States-since-World-Since/dp/0521677556/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240602608&sr=1-3]Amazon.com: The United States since 1980 (The World Since 1980): Dean Baker: Books[/ame]


""Reagan was coming from this very simple proposition: If you lower the tax rate, then more people will work, there will be more income in the economy and everyone's lives would be better. Despite a 25 percent income tax cut, by 1982 Reagan faced a deepening recession, mounting unemployment and homelessness.""

Ken Duberstein, Reagan Chief of Staff