Obama advisors seek rationed medical care

[SAT2]

So you'd rather have government bureaucrats deciding what care you get rather than insurance companies?

You need to read about Wendell Potter.

 

[daveman]

So you'd rather have government bureaucrats deciding what care you get rather than insurance companies?

You need to read about Wendell Potter.

You need to get it through your head that government isn't always the answer to everything.

 

[SAT2]

So you'd rather have government bureaucrats deciding what care you get rather than insurance companies?

You need to read about Wendell Potter.

You need to get it through your head that government isn't always the answer to everything.

Nice diversion. If only someone had said that.

 

[daveman]

You need to read about Wendell Potter.

You need to get it through your head that government isn't always the answer to everything.

Nice diversion. If only someone had said that.

You seem to think that government is the answer to health care.

 

[SAT2]

You need to get it through your head that government isn't always the answer to everything.

Nice diversion. If only someone had said that.

You seem to think that government is the answer to health care.

You seem to think that the insurance companies can be trusted implicitly.

 

[daveman]

Nice diversion. If only someone had said that.

You seem to think that government is the answer to health care.

You seem to think that the insurance companies can be trusted implicitly.

No, just more than government.

 

[SAT2]

You seem to think that government is the answer to health care.

You seem to think that the insurance companies can be trusted implicitly.

No, just more than government.

Then you're making a huge mistake.

We participate in our government. They listen to voters. Corporations listen to stockholders.

 

[Londoner]

Americans pay the highest medical costs of any advanced industrialized nation, yet - somehow - far less people are covered. Worse: America gets much worse outcomes.

Why? Because 30 years of concentrated lobbying has turned the whole delivery system into a dysfunctional monopoly which raises costs and diminishes services. Indeed, costs rise at 5x inflation while the number covered shrinks. Reagan promised the opposite, i.e., as profits rise, he said, the product gets better.

The middle class has been so squeezed by this terrible system that they can no longer sustain the vigorous consumption ("demand") required to grow jobs. In essence, the middle class is being destroyed because a bunch of monopolists have purchased the right to fix their health delivery system. The government now functions only for a handful of special interests which fund elections.

Attempts by Washington to fix this system - by not letting public and private health care plans impose unnecessary (but high margin) drugs and procedures, by not letting a handful of insurance companies divide up the entire country into no-compete zones, by not helping doctors push the world's most expensive drugs - have resulted in severe protest by those who benefit from the current rigged system (Rigged, meaning, e.g., health insurance companies load every coverage plan with high-profit garbage. My brother is a doctor and he has to provide procedures and drugs for diseases and syndromes that are not even acknowledged in other countries. Drug companies routinely lobby Washington for the purpose of getting Medicare to sign up for services, procedures, drugs, and treatments that are not only bogus, but would lead to prison sentences in other countries)

Of course the folks who control the American health market are going to complain when their ill begotten advantage is challenged. This kind of stuff always happens when the owners of our political system start to get less in return for their bribes ("lobbying"). They go crazy. They use words like "freedom" hoping to ensnare naive morons. Nothing to see here.

 

[daveman]

You seem to think that the insurance companies can be trusted implicitly.

No, just more than government.

Then you're making a huge mistake.

We participate in our government. They listen to voters. Corporations listen to stockholders.

Government listens to voters?

On what planet?

 

[The Rabbi]

You seem to think that government is the answer to health care.

You seem to think that the insurance companies can be trusted implicitly.

No, just more than government.

Dave, it's a fundamental difference. Companies are for profit and so need customers. They can piss off a certain number, and will anyway just because that's dealing with the public. But if they're real bad, they'll go out of business. Government can never go out of business. So they have no incentive to keep anyone happy. Plus, if you don't like your insurance company, you can go to the one down the street. If you don't like your government bureaucrat, what aer you supposed to do?

 

[thereisnospoon]

So you'd rather have government bureaucrats deciding what care you get rather than insurance companies?

You need to read about Wendell Potter.

NO....Answer the question!

 

[thereisnospoon]

Yes , you did. Otherwise ,what the hell does 'equal society' refer to?
And you have nothing on the access issue.
What I wrote is 100% true. Especially the part about making choices.
BTW, we have 100% equality of opportunity. If you disagree, then you subscribe to the theory of from birth we all have a destiny laid out before us which is inescapable.
The US is the land of opportunity. Always has been and as long as the progressives don't get their paws on it, it always will be.
Question: is it your conclusion that people of foreign soils are coming to the US because of the lack of opportunity?

I just told you. It refers to equality of opportunity. Currently, we have vastly unequal access to a basic human need-health care.

Your comments on the access issue are ignorant. What you wrote is totally imaginary. Many people have no access to Medicaid, their income is too high, but they are not offered insurance at work, and cannot afford it privately. Others are unable to get coverage because of a preexisting condition. You are living in a complete dream world.

Just answer the question. Do people immigrate to the United States because there is a lack of opportunity?
Throwing out invectives and non-sequiturs is not going to get it done.
Once again, there is no restriction from basic care or even advanced care. No public hospital, urgent care or clinic may dent care to ANYONE.
Stop mixing issues for the purpose of deflection. There is a huge difference between access to medical care and job opportunity.
Cut the bullshit.
The only response I want to see is a direct answer to my question.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Of course Health Care is going to be rationed. That's the case in all nations that have Socialized Medicine. I can't believe people are still debating this. Rationing will happen. You can count on that.

It is impossible that it won't. THe system creates a subsidy so the cost is substantially lower than market. This encourages use of the system. But prices are artificially kept low, discouraging supply. The result is scarcity, which leads to rationing. THis is basic Econ 101.

Rationing. Which we also have in the current system.



Bullshit. Yes, they are denied basic medical care.



Bullshit. You have no evidence for this. No, "we people" do not want zero out of pocket on demand medical care.

The rest of it is choices. A person CHOOSES to work where there is no availability of employer provided insurance. A person CHOOSES to not buy coverage on the private market. A person CHOOSES to not buy insurance before they become ill.
Now, why should those choices be used by government to punish the rest of us with a government socialized medicine plan.....
Tell ya what..If you want to participate in socialized medicine or Obama care or whatever, fine. You may have it on one condition, YOU pay for it yourself.

Bullshit. We do not have on demand employment. You do not work for the employer that you choose, they choose you.

Not everyone can afford the private market.

Some people become ill, lose their jobs, and then their insurance.

Some people have their greatest medical need written out of their private insurance, at the insistence of the provider.

Not it doesn't mean equality of opportunity either. Some people had the opportunity to join their dads in business. Others don't.
It means equal under the law. That's it. Two people come before a judge, they have the same standing. One is not more entitled to some rights than the other. The case hinges on the facts and the law and that's it. Their own standing in society is irrelevant. That is All men are created equal.
Geez. It isn't that those on the left are ignorant. It's that so much of what they know is wrong.

That shoe would be on your conservative foot.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Provide examples of where people are denied basic medical care.
Opportunity is earned. It is not an entitlement.
If one is not qualified for a job position, there is no opportunity.
No one stated nor implied there is 'on demand employment'. Where the hell did you get that from?
EVERYONE chooses their employer. One does that by responding to an advertisement or a recruiter. Then they CHOOSE to take employment ...Or not.
Stop deflecting.

 

[SAT2]

Government listens to voters far more than corporations listen to insurance buyers. The insurance companies listen to stockholders.

Dave, it's a fundamental difference. Companies are for profit and so need customers. They can piss off a certain number, and will anyway just because that's dealing with the public. But if they're real bad, they'll go out of business. Government can never go out of business. So they have no incentive to keep anyone happy. Plus, if you don't like your insurance company, you can go to the one down the street. If you don't like your government bureaucrat, what aer you supposed to do?

You are absolutely out of touch with reality.

NO, you cannot just go to the health insurance company down the street.

Most of us get health insurance at work.

We don't pick the company as individuals. Our employer, or our employer in conjunction with our union, chooses the company.

What's more, if your insurance company is treating you badly, it's probably because you're sick and really need your insurance more than ever.

Which means that the company down the street DOESN'T WANT YOUR BUSINESS.

If you don't like your government, you have a much better chance of changing that than changing corporate policy.

Throwing out invectives and non-sequiturs is not going to get it done.
Once again, there is no restriction from basic care or even advanced care. No public hospital, urgent care or clinic may dent care to ANYONE.
Stop mixing issues for the purpose of deflection. There is a huge difference between access to medical care and job opportunity.
Cut the bullshit.
The only response I want to see is a direct answer to my question.

When I see bullshit, I call it bullshit. I am not calling you names, but your posts are nonsense. Your question is off topic. Stick to this topic.

Going to an ER is a part of health care. It is not "basic health care". You are confusing terms, which leads you to this state of pseudo-certainty. [Which is when a person is completely certain, and completely wrong.]

We choose our jobs from those that are available to us-you completely miss the point about choice. Once we choose from those available jobs, most of us are stuck with the health insurance...or lack of it...at that particular job.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Government listens to voters far more than corporations listen to insurance buyers. The insurance companies listen to stockholders.

Dave, it's a fundamental difference. Companies are for profit and so need customers. They can piss off a certain number, and will anyway just because that's dealing with the public. But if they're real bad, they'll go out of business. Government can never go out of business. So they have no incentive to keep anyone happy. Plus, if you don't like your insurance company, you can go to the one down the street. If you don't like your government bureaucrat, what aer you supposed to do?

You are absolutely out of touch with reality.

NO, you cannot just go to the health insurance company down the street.

Most of us get health insurance at work.

We don't pick the company as individuals. Our employer, or our employer in conjunction with our union, chooses the company.

What's more, if your insurance company is treating you badly, it's probably because you're sick and really need your insurance more than ever.

Which means that the company down the street DOESN'T WANT YOUR BUSINESS.

If you don't like your government, you have a much better chance of changing that than changing corporate policy.

Throwing out invectives and non-sequiturs is not going to get it done.
Once again, there is no restriction from basic care or even advanced care. No public hospital, urgent care or clinic may dent care to ANYONE.
Stop mixing issues for the purpose of deflection. There is a huge difference between access to medical care and job opportunity.
Cut the bullshit.
The only response I want to see is a direct answer to my question.

When I see bullshit, I call it bullshit. I am not calling you names, but your posts are nonsense. Your question is off topic. Stick to this topic.

Going to an ER is a part of health care. It is not "basic health care". You are confusing terms, which leads you to this state of pseudo-certainty. [Which is when a person is completely certain, and completely wrong.]

We choose our jobs from those that are available to us-you completely miss the point about choice. Once we choose from those available jobs, most of us are stuck with the health insurance...or lack of it...at that particular job.

Nice try. Epic FAIL..
Who said anything about emergency room care?
You stated very clearly we do not choose our employer, they choose us. Then in your reply you stated very clearly "we choose our jobs"....FAIL.
No one is "stuck" with anything. Just as one decides to take employment , we can leave it as well. There is no such thing as indentured servitude. And don't hand me this bullshit about there being no jobs and no jobs with insurance. If one is working they should buy insurance BEFORE they decide to get pay tv, data upgraded cell phone, or any other luxury. If people are so mixed up in the realm of priorities, they get what they deserve.
You friggin lefties want everything both ways. You think that because private health insurance costs money it's too expensive. But you won't hesitate to run up a credit card for thousands of dollars for 'toys' or go out and purchase a $30,000 SUV and make $600 per month car loan payments for 6 years so you can "have a nice ride'..
I see it all the time. People who spend foolishly on stupid shit, run up debt and then bitch about 'expensive' health insurance, how their boss is greedy because HE won't pay for it out of HIS pocket and how getting it should be the job of government(taxpayers)....
And don't mention to me anything about how MOST people can't get insurance. That's bullshit to the nth degree.
If you're working a full time job or accumulate full time hours on one or more jobs, you should be able to buy insurance coverage.
Too many people wait until it's too late to buy coverage. Then they expect the insurance industry to take care of them AFTER they discover there is a problem. It doesn't work that way.
I will however stipulate that it should be illegal for an insurance company to deny a claim unrelated to a pre-existing condition or former condition.
For example.....Let's say a person in the past had problems with migraine headaches. He gets new insurance coverage from a new employer. Years later, he enters a hospital with chest pains. He has a mild heart condition that can be treated with medication. He is going to be fine. However, his insurance carrier denies the claim. Why? Pre -existing condition. Underwriters and insurance claims investigators can be evil people when it comes to crunching numbers.
OK, I say the new carrier for the above person is within it's rights to deny coverage for the migraines. But nothing else. Frustrating thing is SOME insurance carriers will do this.
I think the health insurance system sucks. But handing the whole thing over to politicians and unelected accountable to no one bureaucrats is certainly NOT the way to improve the system...
You can spin and deflect all day long. It does not matter. It matters not because in your defense of Obamacare you are grasping at straws.

 

[daveman]

So you'd rather have government bureaucrats deciding what care you get rather than insurance companies?

You need to read about Wendell Potter.

NO....Answer the question!

By weaseling out of it, he has.

He'd rather have government bureaucrats deciding what care he gets rather than insurance companies.

Because bureaucrats care about him. They don't just look at the bottom line. No, really.

 

[SAT2]

[
Nice try. Epic FAIL..
Who said anything about emergency room care?

You did. By mentioning urgent care, you clearly alluded to the ER. Epic lie. And what is it that you're calling "basic medical care"? Isn't this just something you heard, but don't understand?

You stated very clearly we do not choose our employer, they choose us. Then in your reply you stated very clearly "we choose our jobs"....FAIL.
No one is "stuck" with anything. Just as one decides to take employment , we can leave it as well. There is no such thing as indentured servitude. And don't hand me this bullshit about there being no jobs and no jobs with insurance. If one is working they should buy insurance BEFORE they decide to get pay tv, data upgraded cell phone, or any other luxury. If people are so mixed up in the realm of priorities, they get what they deserve.

Yes, many of us are stuck. Many folks are stuck with their jobs, especially in this economy, and you, of course, are stuck on stupid.

As long as not every job offers health insurance, your "solution" is illogical.

For many, insurance is simply not affordable. Giving up what you mention would save a couple of hundred dollars, and private insurance can easily cost a family $1,500 a month, and their most pressing medical needs [a preexisting condition] may not be covered.

You friggin lefties want everything both ways. You think that because private health insurance costs money it's too expensive. But you won't hesitate to run up a credit card for thousands of dollars for 'toys' or go out and purchase a $30,000 SUV and make $600 per month car loan payments for 6 years so you can "have a nice ride'..
I see it all the time. People who spend foolishly on stupid shit, run up debt and then bitch about 'expensive' health insurance, how their boss is greedy because HE won't pay for it out of HIS pocket and how getting it should be the job of government(taxpayers)....
And don't mention to me anything about how MOST people can't get insurance. That's bullshit to the nth degree.
If you're working a full time job or accumulate full time hours on one or more jobs, you should be able to buy insurance coverage.
Too many people wait until it's too late to buy coverage. Then they expect the insurance industry to take care of them AFTER they discover there is a problem. It doesn't work that way.

You are making up a scenario and convicting people of it. As for your complaints about improvidence, that's fixed by the individual mandate IN THE ACA.

I will however stipulate that it should be illegal for an insurance company to deny a claim unrelated to a pre-existing condition or former condition.
For example.....Let's say a person in the past had problems with migraine headaches. He gets new insurance coverage from a new employer. Years later, he enters a hospital with chest pains. He has a mild heart condition that can be treated with medication. He is going to be fine. However, his insurance carrier denies the claim. Why? Pre -existing condition. Underwriters and insurance claims investigators can be evil people when it comes to crunching numbers.
OK, I say the new carrier for the above person is within it's rights to deny coverage for the migraines. But nothing else. Frustrating thing is SOME insurance carriers will do this.
I think the health insurance system sucks. But handing the whole thing over to politicians and unelected accountable to no one bureaucrats is certainly NOT the way to improve the system...
You can spin and deflect all day long. It does not matter. It matters not because in your defense of Obamacare you are grasping at straws.

That shoe is on your foot. This is just rambling nonsense. A new private insurance policy is going to deny coverage for those migraines, for cancer, for a heart condition, "mild", or major...except under the new health care law, the Affordable Care Act. You clearly don't understand how people get insurance, what problems they face in the private market, the lack of coverage in many jobs, what doctors are obligated to do for patients, or anything else that you're going on about. You especially don't understand the ACA, as is proven by your response here.