Obama 2001: 'Tragedy' THAT 'REDISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH' NOT PURSUED

[editec]

Editec.....
The rich have nobody to blme but themselves.

They've given themselves every advantage in the last thirty years or so, and now so many Ameircans are having a hard time paying their bills they're willing to listen to the siren call of wealth redistribution.
They busted the unions, they shipped the jobs off shore, they gave themselves enormous tax breaks to the point that the nation and the states are going bankrupt and they blme their victims for the fallout.

If you cannot see what has happened to this nation, regardless of how well you might personally be doing then you are fucking blind as a bat.


My response seems pretty appropriate....

Or maybe you could explain what you really meant?

I'll tell you what it DOES NOT MEAN...

It does NOT mean ONLY the rich will be suffering.

It means the almost wealthy who have supported the superwealthy are going to discover that when more than half the American people are NOT making it, that the superwealthy are not going to invite their loyal quislings to John Galt's ranch.

You make a million dollars a year?

You're not the superrich.

You're just a fucking servant to the truly wealthy, and the moment you aren't needed, you are thrown the fates, dude, just as those factory workers for whom you undoubtably have such contempt were.

 

[GigiBowman]

Editec.....
The rich have nobody to blame but themselves.

They've given themselves every advantage in the last thirty years or so, and now so many Americans are having a hard time paying their bills they're willing to listen to the siren call of wealth redistribution.
They busted the unions, they shipped the jobs off shore, they gave themselves enormous tax breaks to the point that the nation and the states are going bankrupt and they blame their victims for the fallout.

If you cannot see what has happened to this nation, regardless of how well you might personally be doing then you are fucking blind as a bat.


My response seems pretty appropriate....

Or maybe you could explain what you really meant?

May I interject:

Most of the people having a hard time paying their bills....sure didn't argue when they kept getting those "You have been pre-approved" credit cards in the mail. They're having a hard time paying their bills because they spent more than they can earn.

Many of the people who are going into foreclosure used their homes as an ATM machine and took advantage of "The Home Equity Line of Credit". They sent their kids to college, took Carnival Cruise Vacations and bought Hummers. Now their mortgages doubled in size overnight...and they can't pay it back.

Many of the OTHER people going into foreclosure got mortgages on homes they could not afford but at the time they figured "In 36 months I'll be in a better place when the mortgage rate goes up". They're not. They probably paid the last years payments with those "You have been pre-approved" credit cards they got in the mail.

I'm a real estate agent. I see what the basic problem is and I can't really do anything about it.

Most people can't go down too low in price because they owe the bank more than their house is currently worth. In 2004, say, a house that someone paid $75,000 for back in the 70's (and paid off) was suddenly appraising for $400,000! Wow, I'm rich they thought! So they got that home equity line of credit and bought and bought and bought.

Now that they can't afford their mortgage....so they want to sell their house and downsize...only they CAN'T sell their house for less than $395,000 (the amount of equity they took out lol)....only THEIR HOUSE WON'T APPRAISE for $395,000! Now it's only appraising for $250,000. So we tell them, "Sorry, you have to sell your house for current market value and they say NO I CAN'T....

There are no more suckers out there willing to pay top prices. Why? Because now we are back to basics....no mortgage for you unless you have 20% down and a credit score of at least 700. This means VERY LITTLE BUYERS ARE AVAILABLE TO BUY YOUR HOME....

So now Joe the Plumber who didn't get a home equity line of credit when he could have, owns his home from 1976 and doesn't have a yard of credit card payments.....wants to take his hard earned money and start a productive business, is being told he will be asked to redistribute his money to ALL THOSE FUCKING LOSERS who are selling their crap off on ebay!

and no one on ebay wants to buy their crap either

The days of Bullshit excess are over...

but I'll be damned if I'm going to pay for the mistakes of ALL THOSE ASSHOLES!

And when I see someone in need, I will go in my pocket and I will share.....
and I always do. And people always do.
People are inherently good. They want to help others...

BUT DON"T TELL ME I HAVE TO BAIL OUT ASSHOLES!

and that includes all those people who come to me with section 8 vouchers and the state is paying for their apartment....and they are having their 5th baby. GEEZUS

Who do I blame for this? The Right, The Left and the Fed

Who will fix it? None of the above

is Obama going to help? HE'S GOING TO MAKE IT FUCKING WORSE!

Why? Because now the people who were responsible during the the last 20 years...are going to PAY! I mean, what else can they do except punish the responsible now?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiOVNWoWTAU]YouTube - Hate your Credit Card Bills? MAXED OUT - NOW ON DVD[/ame]

 

[GigiBowman]

Oh, and excuse all those curses, but I'm mad and a bit green this morning.

But at least I can thank GOD, in this horrible times, that I am a rental agent!

 

[Ravi]

DID ANYONE ACTUALLY WATCH OR READ THE INTERVIEW???

Obama was talking about the tragedy of the Civil Rights movement being that we tend to rely more on the rulings of the Court than the legislative process to ensure civil rights.

Quit letting the liberal media jerk you around, people.

 

[editec]

May I interject:

But of course!

Most of the people having a hard time paying their bills....sure didn't argue when they kept getting those "You have been pre-approved" credit cards in the mail. They're having a hard time paying their bills because they spent more than they can earn.

True but that is NOT why most people are really suffering. The salaries of the working class have gone DOWN. That much more than credit is the problem in this nation in aggregate.

Many of the people who are going into foreclosure used their homes as an ATM machine and took advantage of "The Home Equity Line of Credit". They sent their kids to college, took Carnival Cruise Vacations and bought Hummers. Now their mortgages doubled in size overnight...and they can't pay it back.

Yes, that is also true.

Many of the OTHER people going into foreclosure got mortgages on homes they could not afford but at the time they figured "In 36 months I'll be in a better place when the mortgage rate goes up". They're not. They probably paid the last years payments with those "You have been pre-approved" credit cards they got in the mail.

Yes, I'm certain that is also some people's realities, too.

I'm a real estate agent. I see what the basic problem is and I can't really do anything about it.

Most people can't go down too low in price because they owe the bank more than their house is currently worth. In 2004, say, a house that someone paid $75,000 for back in the 70's (and paid off) was suddenly appraising for $400,000! Wow, I'm rich they thought! So they got that home equity line of credit and bought and bought and bought.

You're repeating yourself, but I agree that did happen.

Now that they can't afford their mortgage....so they want to sell their house and downsize...only they CAN'T sell their house for less than $395,000 (the amount of equity they took out lol)....only THEIR HOUSE WON'T APPRAISE for $395,000! Now it's only appraising for $250,000. So we tell them, "Sorry, you have to sell your house for current market value and they say NO I CAN'T....

Where'd that $395,0000 go? Into the market that collapsed?

My point here is to acknowlege the truth of what you are saying, but to also ask you if you think that the above is the SOLE reason for what is happening?

Did you complain about that real estate bubble while you were getting your commissions?

I rather doubt it. You WON because of that madness. You are one of the winners of this game.

There are no more suckers out there willing to pay top prices. Why? Because now we are back to basics....no mortgage for you unless you have 20% down and a credit score of at least 700. This means VERY LITTLE BUYERS ARE AVAILABLE TO BUY YOUR HOME....

And has it occurred to you that the prices of homes was completely out of line with actual incomes?

the median family income is about $50K in America. Do you remember what the median home price was a year or two ago?

Do you understand that the relationship between those medians was completely insanely out of line with the reality of how much families were making?

It did NOT take people dipping into second mortgages for this disaster to happen. It was inevitable because the median salary was about 1/5th of the median home price.

That insanity was not sustainable. Not even if nobody has EVER used their houses like private bank accounts.

So now Joe the Plumber who didn't get a home equity line of credit when he could have, owns his home from 1976 and doesn't have a yard of credit card payments.....wants to take his hard earned money and start a productive business, is being told he will be asked to redistribute his money to ALL THOSE FUCKING LOSERS who are selling their crap off on ebay!

I won't comment on fantasies like Joe the Plumber. The man's fraud.

and no one on ebay wants to buy their crap either

The days of Bullshit excess are over...

Well there you and I can completely agree.

The real estate bubble, one that could ONLY happen because of NINA ARMS mortgages popped.

The economy turned around, the ARMS adjusted.

The fools who overpaid and overbought went belly up, but we are ALL going to see the price of real estate adjust to something like the historic norm, now.

And that norm is something along these lines:

The median price of a home will equal about 1.5 -2 years gross salary of the median family income.

Assuming the median income stays at $500K (something I doubt, I think it will go down) then the median home price will end up around $150,000 - $200,000 TOPS!

Of course, for a while, the prices might actually go lower than that formula, but inevitably that is the right price for homes given median incomes.

But I'll be damned if I'm going to pay for the mistakes of ALL THOSE ASSHOLES!

Oh, you'll pay. We'll ALL pay for this madness. We're ALREADY paying for it.

And when I see someone in need, I will go in my pocket and I will share.....
and I always do. And people always do.
People are inherently good. They want to help others...

BUT DON"T TELL ME I HAVE TO BAIL OUT ASSHOLES!

The asshole homeonwers aren't being bailed out. The bond holders and bankers are bailed out. Aren't you paying attention?

and that includes all those people who come to me with section 8 vouchers and the state is paying for their apartment....and they are having their 5th baby. GEEZUS

They're not players in this scene. Regardless of what you or I think of those people, they have not a thing to do with this problem.

Who do I blame for this? The Right, The Left and the Fed

The FED, private banks, bonds rating agencies and damned fools.

Who will fix it? None of the above

Fix it? Nobody can fix this painlessly. The price of real estate is going to crap out and crap out until it is aligned with real incomes.

is Obama going to help? HE'S GOING TO MAKE IT FUCKING WORSE!

He might. I'm not sure that the current plan it. It is, I think ALREADY a done deal, isn't it?

Why? Because now the people who were responsible during the the last 20 years...are going to PAY! I mean, what else can they do except punish the responsible now?

Those responsible already got bailed out, dear...except for the damned fools who overpaid for those homes, of course. They're HOSED.

 

[GigiBowman]

I went to a real estate meeting last week and I was told that where I live --which is Long Island, NY...the home prices are $194,000 above what they should be.

Unbelievable.

I did see one house actually go down $100,000 in a day last week. I went to see it. It was priced $150,000 too high originally!...and it needs to go down another $50,000 before anyone will consider it!

The thing about Real Estate is that Joe Schmoe can ask anything he wants for his house....and unless he's getting a cash paying customer he'll still have to have someone get a mortgage on this house...and if it does not appraise for what he's asking, the buyers are not getting that mortgage. Period.

But for a long time there....Banks were appraising homes for these outrageous prices!

Why???

Yes, You are right Editec about your points as well...

but my question is....what makes people honestly believe that Obama is going to save them from this mess?

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Deperate people are apt to accept radical solutions and radical government in the hopes of those making things better.

The rich have nobody to blme but themselves.

They've given themselves every advantage in the last thirty years or so, and now so many Ameircans are having a hard time paying their bills they're willing to listen to the siren call of wealth redistribution.

They busted the unions, they shipped the jobs off shore, they gave themselves enormous tax breaks to the point that the nation and the states are going bankrupt and they blme their victims for the fallout.

If you cannot see what has happened to this nation, regardless of how well you might personally be doing then you are fucking blind as a bat.

Again... From time to time The Left will vomit sufficiently close to provide a glimpse of that which they've been consuming...

Here we see a leftist exposing her sincere belief in a laundry list of dirty little lies and rationalizations which she feels justifies the cultural departure from the principles on which the United States was founded and of course the US Constitution itself...

Setting aside that wealth creation is not at the root of the problems this idiot is listing as an excuse to steal the product of the labor of "the rich" people..., THERE IS NO VALID PRINCIPLE WHICH PROVIDES FOR THE SUBSIDY OF ONE PERSON AT THE FORCED EXPENSE OF ANOTHER. PERIOD.

Just as with EVERY OTHER DEPARTURE FROM PRINCIPLE, where you or 'the culture' rationalizes that it is acceptable to confiscate the income of the wealthy to subsidize the 'po',' you rationalize BY DEFAULT the same basis in reasoning which will be used TO CONFISCATE YOUR WEALTH...

This is freakin’ INSANITY!

It's almost as if these imbeciles think that they will be able to explain that 'uh... we only agreed to confiscate THAT GUYS wealth... we were told that this would not include US...

THE SAME REASONING THAT THEY USED TO TAKE THE INCOME FROM THE RICH WILL BE USED TO TAKE YOURS... And the SAME response that YOU ARE PRESENTLY RETURNING TO 'the rich" as they complain, WILL BE RETURNED TO YOU WHEN YOU COMPLAIN! It’s the principle of “What goes around, comes around.”

When Reagan came to power in 1981 'the rich' were having 70% of their income confiscated through the top income bracket... Guess what.. THE LIBS WERE DEMANDING MORE... The US economy was shrinking, unemployment was double digit, inflation of 14%, Prime interest rate of 21%... TOP MARGINAL INCOME TAX RATE OF 70% and the SOCIALISTS WANTED MORE~

And just like today, where the socialists blame "Republican policy" on all of those listed ‘economic ills’... the truth was then, as it is now, that the economic ills that this poor dullard lists as ‘economic crimes against the people’ by "The Rich" ARE CAUSED BY SOCIALIST POLICY and this WITHOUT EXCEPTION.

And it is Socialist policy which continues to tear at the fabric of this nation...

And to that extent as radical as people tried to characterize the Warren court, it wasn’t that radical. It didn’t break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the founding fathers in the Constitution

That is a comment which is completely, utterly, thoroughly, indisputably, incontestably, immutably, ABSOLUTELY... ANTI-AMERICAN!

A Muslim Marxists lamenting the ESSENTIAL CONSTRAINTS on the awesome power of the government to usurp the means of the INDIVIDUAL TO EXERCISE THEIR UNALIENABLE RIGHTS… constraints which are inherent in the US Constitution... Constraints which DEFINE THE UNIQUENESS OF THE US CONSTITUTION; CONSTRAINTS WHICH ARE THE VERY ESSENCE OF THE US CONSTUTION AND THAT WHICH DEFINES “AMERICA;” AND THAT IS THE NATURE OF THE "CHANGE" THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE ADVOCATING... They want to "CHANGE" what it means to be an AMERICAN! They want to redefine America...

And I am here to inform those people that NO YOU CAN'T... When we allow them to redefine America... we allow them TO DESTROY AMERICA... and THAT is not a point of negotiation that AMERICANS are prepared to consider.

The principles on which the United States was founded work and that is in direct contrast to the principle-LESS system of socialism: WHICH DOES NOT WORK; WHICH CANNOT WORK... because it is mathematically unsound; because it is an invalid calculation: Socialism DESTROYS wealth. Socialism will eradicate the production of wealth by shutting down the incentive to create wealth... and you CANNOT REDISTRIBUTE THAT WHICH DOES NOT EXIST.

Spread the word… “CHANGE” is socialist code for DESTROY… to convert from viable to unviable…

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

But for a long time there....Banks were appraising homes for these outrageous prices!

Why???

Because that is what the market was paying... Appraisals are a function of determining what a house will sell for... what it will bring in a given market... that is why one is required to get an appraisal prior to the bank issuing a mortgage; because the market is not zero sum; it is fluid and the appraised value of a given property changes... two years ago appraised values were increasing 25-30% a year and WAY more than that in some markets. People were trading properties like commodities...

Look, the banks and mortgage companies REACTED to GOVERNMENT POLICY... Government policy required that the qualifying threshold to secure a mortgage be lowered and THAT meant that a MASSIVE increase in the size of the market; which wasn't just poor inner city people... a two income family that formerly could only afford ONE house, was now qualified to secure 3 or 4 mortgages... and THAT is where the problems began.

The market began to feed on itself... "If I buy this property for 100K, Kick in 10 grand to fix it up; I can sell this pig for $150 in 90 days..." The next guy buys the same house, $150, kicks in 50 grand to fix it up... sells it for 225 in 180 days... and so on. Eventually everyone turned around and it cost $400K to buy a tear down and everyone had 4 mortgages and no one needed the coin... the market flattens... OOoops.. 'things are not looking good, maybe I should sell...'

The next sound ya heard was "POP!" And suddenly the left starts crying that it was greed... NO SHIT!

Greed is a human trait, a frailty to be DISCOURAGED; it was greed on the part of the ideological left that demanded that government should guarantee loans for people that were almost certain to default; but greed didn't just pop up on the human radar... we've known about it for a long damn time... like 5000 years... it's the reason that people who loan money have standards to determine who is and is not qualified to pay them BACK. A two income family making 120k are not qualified to perform on 2.5 million in mortgage liabilities... PERIOD. Yet that was fairly common just two years ago and represents the largest segment of the failures which produced the mortgage crisis. All of the bundled mortgage securities were just a means to keep those plates spinning... a way fund the machine... The fact is the left demanded that sound principle be set aside and that always produces DISASTER!

 

[mdjgirl7]

Is there any more egregious wealth distribution system than legalized SLAVERY?

We've got plenty of people right here on this very board who are shocked by the concept of wealth distribution TODAY

But these SAME people are usually more than willing to defend the Southern Cause which seceded so they could continue their system of economic wealth distribution called SLAVERY.

Smell their hypocracy?

To them, that race based classism was perfectly okay, as long the Black people are getting screwed.

As long as slaves distributed wealth to slave owners, that was perfectly okay CAPITALISM.

But now when the decendents of those slave demand reparations, those people seeking repayment on that long overdue debt are SOCIALIST?!?

What a wonderful double standard that is, eh?

NOBODY who defends the Southern States RIGHT to succeed in defence of slavery, has any right to whine about anybody's wealth redistribution plans today, folks.

Consider the total value of the slave labor that the redistribution of wealth given to the slave owners.


Did those slave owners EVER repay that their victims for that THEFT?

Of course they didn't. In fact they couldn't repay that debt. Their society was destroyed, and the debt was probably larger than the value of their society even before it was destroyed. Slavery is not only evil, it's a highly inefficient system of amassing weath, too

So you racist jerkoffs ought to stop whining when Blacks ask to be paid for the value labors that were stolen from their families.

We all know that the Blacks are never going to be repaid for that debt.

But to suggest that these white racist have some high moral ground when they start talking about how evil the concept of wealth redistribution or socialism is, is freaking absurd.

This nation has been redistributing wealth and has been socialistic since day one.

First off let me just say I do not and never will condone slavery. It was a hideous practice and I am happy it ended.

Next let's go back a tad further it was the blacks in Africa that sold their own county men into slavery. I am not tiring to justify it just filling in some of the history.

Now that we are into modern times. I think blacks whites Indians Latinos Asians we all want the same thing. We want roofs over our heads food in our stomachs good schools for our kids to go to. Good health care and a good paying job. We all have the same hopes the same dreams.

The MAJORITY of us are NOT RICH. We are all struggling. To suggest that we somehow can pay back the families of the slaves for the atrocities they bore is crazy. First off some of the blacks that live here their families were never part of the slaves. Just because you are black does not mean you are part of that era. Still not justifying what happened.

Exactly how does one come to a dollar amount to pay each family? As a white person I did not inherit GREAT WEALTH from any ancestors that may or may not have had slaves. Still not justifying what happened.


So what we are saying is we want all the whites to suffer for what happened right. I assure you alot of us are suffering. No we were not slaves in this country. Somehow it will make it OK if the blacks get money for what happened right. Does Africa owe them money to for their part in the slave trade?

Does Egypt owe the Jews money for the time they spent in captivity? This list could go on and on. Still not justifying slavery. What it sounds like to me is revenge. There is nothing anyone can do or pay to make it OK for what happened. All we can do is to join together as one nation to pull it together to make it better for everyone regardless of race or sex. If we continue on the separation path it will lead to our destruction. That is what the politicians are hoping for we will bicker amongst ourselves taking the focus of those who are raping this country. That would be the politicians.

Fight for what is right not revenge.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Isn't it odd that the left on this board have lost all interest in this issue?

The reason is of course that they know that their candidate can't be defended,ao it's best to just let this issue drop off the radar...

 

[Odd1_Out]

Isn't it odd that the left on this board have lost all interest in this issue?

The reason is of course that they know that their candidate can't be defended,ao it's best to just let this issue drop off the radar...

I'll defend it!

When most modern liberals, like myself and Obama, talk about redistribution of wealth we aren't talking about it on as large of a scale as most "free market" fanatics think. No one is talking about everyone earning the same wages for whatever they do, competition is one of the things that keeps an economy strong, and it is essential to maintain that. What we want to do is statistically end poverty for all WORKING Americans and their families.

It is no secret that poverty is one of the leading causes of crime in this country. Impoverished people are also more prone to disease and unwanted pregnancies because they can't afford medical treatment or contraceptives. All of these things, along with hurting the poor themselves, also hurts American society as a whole: our homes/cars are broken into, more people turn to illegal means (drug trafficking, etc.) to make money, disease is more prevalent, and our cities and schools are over-crowded.

The idea behind the sort of "redistribution" that liberals talk about is to combat the cause of these problems, rather than just inanely battling the effects while ignoring the root of the problem. If your boat has a leak in it are you just going to frantically bail out water, or are you also going to try to find the source of that leak so you can plug it?

Crime will always exist, but by helping people attain the minimal means to feed, house, and care for themselves, we can all but eliminate need-motivated crime, thereby preventing thousands (possibly millions) of young people from becoming career criminals.

Redistributing wealth creates a better quality of life for EVERYONE. Less poverty for those previously afflicted, and less fear of our property being stolen for the rest of us. Think of it as a "Please, don't rob/mug me" tax.

And, for all of you saying that "the rich suffer" from this sort of plan... Is that a joke? I'm not arguing that the burden is placed on them, but do you really want to use the word "suffer"? I mean, maybe this plan makes it so a young business exec can only get a new car every OTHER year, but do you really call that suffering? Even compared to the hunger pangs of the 4 starving children that money went to feed, house, and clothe?

 

[Ravi]

I have a question. Given that this speech of Obama's was about the civil rights movement and the tragedy he was speaking of was that civil rights activists have come to rely on the courts and not legislative action to ensure civil rights (which I disagree with, btw)--damn, lost my train of thought.

Oh--are right wing people really as stupid as they come across on the internet or do they just like repeating lies because they know that people will believe them?

 

[irie]

Bush assured it won't be there. It was always his goal to do away with SS. So it seems he bankrupted the treasury so he could push that agenda.

Sorta like spreading our troops thin so he could outsource to Blackwater.

Did you hear the IRS outsourced collections? The company they hired cost more than they collected.

Some things should not be privatized.

I think I hear the black helecopters

 

[jreeves]

There is a way for The People to be involved in, and have ownership in the means of production that is not socialistic in nature.

What is more Capitalistic than stock ownership? Is there a reasonable reason that the government can't own stock in American companies?

-Joe

When you quote, "spread the wealth" among American citizens, that is Marxist.

 

[sparky]

Isn't it odd that the left on this board have lost all interest in this issue?

The reason is of course that they know that their candidate can't be defended,ao it's best to just let this issue drop off the radar...

left? what is lefty about pointing out systemic failures?

capitalism has been unregulated and unmonitored here for so long that the top 1% of Americans own 90% of this country

what is liberal or leftist about pointing out that every country, regardless of it's politics, that assumes such a disparity sucks for it's middle class?

 

[wayne]

Yes we can, do the something to the US that was done to the Soviet Union. No country has an endless supply of wealth. If the people stop working or just slow down, we are on the road to economic hell!

 

[eots]

When you quote, "spread the wealth" among American citizens, that is Marxist.

Obamas foreign policy advisor

In 1970, Zbigniew Brzezinski wrote a book entitled Between Two Ages: America’s Role in the Technetronic Era (New York, Viking Press). Let’s browse through it to find out what Zbigniew is. Zbig dedicates the book to Ian, Mark and Mika, his kids. A nice touch, don’t you think? He’s a family man. Starting on page 72 of my Penguin edition, he explains “why Marxism represents a further vital and creative stage in the maturing of man’s universal vision.”

Page 83: Marxism “represented a major advance in man’s ability to conceptualize his relationship to his world.” It carried “an essentially ethical message.” It “was derived from a totally rational method of inquiry.” P. 123: Marxism “provided a unique intellectual tool for understanding and harnessing the fundamental forces of our time. . . . t supplied the best available insight into contemporary reality; it infused political action with strong ethical elements . . . .”


Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

I'll defend it!

When most modern liberals, like myself and Obama, talk about redistribution of wealth we aren't talking about it on as large of a scale as most "free market" fanatics think. No one is talking about everyone earning the same wages for whatever they do, competition is one of the things that keeps an economy strong, and it is essential to maintain that. What we want to do is statistically end poverty for all WORKING Americans and their families.

LOL... Oh THANK YOU for this... It illustrates the point perfectly. It should be noted that many leftists will demand that you're only pretending to be a leftist to prove the point that Hussein Obama is a Marxist taking advantage of the addle-minded 'independent, moderate, centrist, progressives'

You've established that Hussein is just like you... You've stated that you believe that Hussein wants the same thing that you want; to end poverty and to do so with JUuuust enough socialism to get the job done; you've said that you and Hussein aren't trying to stifle competition and nationalize the means of production where all citizens are converted to 'workers' paid scale salaries...

But here's the problem with that: THERE IS NO AMOUNT OF SOCIALISM THAT WILL END POVERTY: THERE IS NO AMOUNT OF REDISTRIBUTIVE ECONOMICS THAT WILL REDUCE POVERTY... PERIOD. Left-think, which is what you're espousing here, seeks to eliminate NEED... AND THERE IS NO END TO HUMAN NEED! Left-think erroneously confused equality with FAIRNESS... Of course you can't define fairness synonymously with equality, but that doesn't seem to stop you people from chronic usage wherein 'FAIRNESS' is paramount OVER equality; which is to say that the left doesn't give a RIP about people having equal rights and equal opportunity to pursue the fulfillment of their lives; the left demands that it IS NOT FAIR that two people with equal rights and equal opportunities did not realize EQUAL OUTCOMES... and that is simply ABSURD.

Yet this is the cornerstone on which the entire premise of redistributive economics, AKA: MARXISM, rests.

It is no secret that poverty is one of the leading causes of crime in this country. Impoverished people are also more prone to disease and unwanted pregnancies because they can't afford medical treatment or contraceptives. All of these things, along with hurting the poor themselves, also hurts American society as a whole: our homes/cars are broken into, more people turn to illegal means (drug trafficking, etc.) to make money, disease is more prevalent, and our cities and schools are over-crowded.

False... The fact is that most people around the PLANET, let alone in the US, who live in poverty DO NOT ENGAGE IN CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR. Thus poverty does not 'cause' crime... what causes crime is people deciding to commit crimes; which is to say that people reject the idea that they re not ENTITLED to the belongings of another; what causes crime is that SOME PEOPLE decide that THEY ARE ENTITLED TO THE PRODUCT OF ANOTHER PERSON'S LABOR... THEY HAVE A NEED... THE OTHER PERSON HAS THE MEANS TO FILL THAT NEED... AND THEY HIJACK THAT MEANS... THE VIOLATE THE RIGHTS OF THE PERSON OF MEANS. Now the distinction between the two individuals, the one with the need and the one with the means may and often is nearly indiscernible; the difference of one guy on the MLK has $5.00 and the other one NEEDS that $5.00; but they're both walking down the MLK and they both broke as HELL, living in the same damn HOUSE, so to speak.

Your rationalization that poverty causes crime is invalid logically, you're just assuming that because crime is higher in areas where poverty is highest, that poverty causes crime.

My thinking on this is that violent crime is caused by a failure to understand the responsibilities inherent in our God given human rights; the failure to vigilantly guard against the exercising of one's rights to the detriment of another... thus those people committing violent crime do not accept their responsibilities and look to others, on many levels, to service their needs.


Now the left will claim that those people don't have the opportunities that other people do... the answer to that is a simple "BULLSHIT!" The opportunity is there, because it is everywhere in the US. People accept that which satisfies them... and they generally accept poverty because they don't BELIEVE THEY HAVE ANY OTHER CHOICE! They're taught that they are in poverty because someone ELSE has taken their opportunity... That the ethereal "RICH" are rich because THEY STOLE THE OPPORTUNITY FROM THOSE IN POVERTY... And THAT is what the left teaches them... That is the message that YOU HAVE JUST BROUGHT... That what we need to do is to spread the wealth around, so other people can be happy.

The idea behind the sort of "redistribution" that liberals talk about is to combat the cause of these problems, rather than just inanely battling the effects while ignoring the root of the problem. If your boat has a leak in it are you just going to frantically bail out water, or are you also going to try to find the source of that leak so you can plug it?

Again... I must call BULLSHIT! here... And I don't mean to say that you are not ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE that you're attacking the root cause and not the effects; I mean that you're DEAD WRONG. In that redistributive economics does absolutely NOTHING BUT treat the effect and to EMPOWER THE CAUSE. Marxism tells the proletariat that they are in poverty because the man is keepin' the brother down... that he needs to keep the Brother down because it is the brother (exchange worker for brother, toss in a German accent and this is almost verbatim...) that does all the work and if the brother climbs up, there will be no one around to do his work for him so he needs the brother to be hurtin,' so the brother will be willin' to work cheap... Its a lie and it's a lie of the damnable variety; it's a lie on many levels.

First, Labor is not zero sum; meaning that all labor is NOT one value and is NOT static... In a free market, labor is fluid... and its cost is subject to its supply, just like everything else. Where the value of the labor (Unskilled; highly skilled and specialized) which is sought is plentiful, that labor is cheap... where the value of labor which is sought is rare, that labor is pricey. Now with that said, we must recognize that this principle is immutable; meaning it is an incontestable, natural, relentless, unchanging fact; and when we understand THAT, we recognize that unskilled labor is usually vastly more plentiful than highly skilled, specialized labor and for the Brother to be recognized as a higher value; for the brother to REALIZE more for his labor, the INDIVIDUAL Brother has to increase his skill level; where he moves from the plentiful CHEAP ASS LABOR... to the highly sought, rare HIGHLY SKILLED, SPECIALIZED, very pricey labor... Which is precisely how millions upon tens of millions of people born into poverty move up and out of poverty every day, in every way.

Crime will always exist, but by helping people attain the minimal means to feed, house, and care for themselves, we can all but eliminate need-motivated crime, thereby preventing thousands (possibly millions) of young people from becoming career criminals.

"Need-Motivated" You nor any other movement, ideology or popular whimsy is going to resolve anything which is need-motivated.

The problem is that you people reject the idea of personal accountability.

You accept crime as an excuse; you believe that your position regarding 'need-motivation' is a function of high enlightenment; it's most decidedly not; it is a function of disregard for the rights of others.

I can imagine coming home after taking my Father's car without permission and explaining to him that 'need-motivation' was the basis of my disrespecting him, his rules and his trust.

No doubt he would have sought to resolve my need, by motivating me to need his foot to be removed from my ass and for my future transportation needs, which would not have included the potential option of the Mercedes...

Redistributing wealth creates a better quality of life for EVERYONE. Less poverty for those previously afflicted, and less fear of our property being stolen for the rest of us. Think of it as a "Please, don't rob/mug me" tax.

ROFL... Yeah, I can see that working. "Please don't rob me Mr. Punk, here's a free living and in the unlikely event that you find yourself in need while you're enjoying the product of other people's labor, feel free to express your need and we'll pour more cash on you... because your needs supersedes the rights of others."

I have a better idea; Mr. Punk if you try to mug me, I'll put two holes in the middle of your chest which will rip your life sustaining organs to shreds, killing you fairly close to instantly; I know you're a bad ass, so I've taken the time and suffered the expense of acquiring the "Need Motivated-Anti-Bad-Ass Suppressor."

Either get your shit together Mr. Punk... or we'll end your sorry ass. OH! Just one more thing: YOU DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO TAKE THE PRODUCT OF ANOTHER MAN'S LABOR AND WHEN YOU DO SIR, YOU FORFEIT YOUR OWN RIGHT. Which we will collect on the spot; as a result of our sacred duty to defend our lives and those of our neighbors from your unjustified threats...

Now go find gainful employment, increase your skill set until it becomes of a sufficient value that you're able to live a life which you find fulfilling and stop being such a DICK! Or we'll kill your ass for your failure to respect the rights of others.

And, for all of you saying that "the rich suffer" from this sort of plan... Is that a joke?

What right do you have to the product of another man's labor?

I'm not arguing that the burden is placed on them, but do you really want to use the word "suffer"?

What right do you have to the product of another man's labor?

I mean, maybe this plan makes it so a young business exec can only get a new car every OTHER year, but do you really call that suffering?

What right do you have to the product of another man's labor?

Even compared to the hunger pangs of the 4 starving children that money went to feed, house, and clothe?

What right do you have to the product of another man's labor?

The parents of those children are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights; just like everyone else. They're free to pursue the fulfillment of their own lives.

IF they find themselves unable to feed their children; then they can 'need motivate' themselves to ask for charity from those with the means to help them; those who WILLFULLY provide assistance... who likely will ask them to take measures to change their lives so that THEY CAN SUPPORT THEMSELVES AND THEIR CHILDREN; they will hold them accountable for their behavior so that their children will not suffer from their own PERSONAL FAILURES.

Your problem is that YOU DON'T WANT THOSE PEOPLE TO HAVE TO ASK FOR HELP! YOU WANT THOSE PEOPLE TO BE ENTITLED TO THE PRODUCT OF OTHER PEOPLES LABOR WHICH IS PRECISELY THE SAME PERSONAL FAILURE AS THE NEED MOTIVATED PUNK...

Here's a CLUE: YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO THE PRODUCT OF ANOTHER PERSON'S LABOR. PERIOD!

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Isn't it odd that the left on this board have lost all interest in this issue?

The reason is of course that they know that their candidate can't be defended,ao it's best to just let this issue drop off the radar...

left? what is lefty about pointing out systemic failures?

capitalism has been unregulated and unmonitored here for so long that the top 1% of Americans own 90% of this country

what is liberal or leftist about pointing out that every country, regardless of it's politics, that assumes such a disparity sucks for it's middle class?

'What is Leftists about it,' is "IT" projects a failure upon Capitalism which does not exists; and "IT" further deceitfully orjects the LIE that Capitlaism has NOT BEEN REGULATED and it summarily rejects any responsibility FOR THE FAILURE ON THE LEFTIST POLICY THAT CAUSED THE FAILURE; POLICY WHICH WAS ARTIFICIALLY THRUST INTO THAT SYSTEM AGAINST ALL SOUND PRINCIPLE; this in an attempt to shift responsibility away from Socialism... The single most discredited notion in the history of the species.

Socialism had precisely NO ROLL in 'building the American Middle Class... ZERO! And what's more, the American Middle Class exists DESPITE the soft headed policy of the ideological left over the last 70 years.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

The Lefts flight from this issue conclusively proves that they realize there is no way to deny that Hussein is a Marxist with his personal position being undeniable and that there is no way to defend against it.

Which would be the same IF the LA Times released the tape of Hussein celebrating Jew haters.