CDZ NYC on track for lowest number of murders in decades

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by rightwinger, Dec 26, 2017.

  1. Xelor
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    Xelor Gold Member

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    Wow! You still don't get it....

    [​IMG]

    Correlation absent proof of causation.
     
  2. SobieskiSavedEurope
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    SobieskiSavedEurope Gold Member

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    Right back at you.

    You also haven't effectively explained why Western Europe has general high gun ownership rates compared to the World, but low murder rates in comparison to the world.
     
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  3. Xelor
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    Xelor Gold Member

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    I don't need to do that because I'm not asserting there is a causal relationship -- in either direction, gun ownership or gun non-ownership -- between those metrics. That there is not widely accepted (among sound and substantive researchers) that there is such a causal relationship is the the reason I have not posted an argument based on there being one. Because there is no preponderantly or unequivocally established causal relationship among the incidence of gun ownership and using a gun for unlawful purposes, neither gun rights nor gun control activists can craft sound arguments that rely on there being such a relationship.

    That is the central theme of my remarks, yet even after my having stated it and alluded to it, it yet appears to have gone over your head. I suspect that theme eluded you because you are of a mind that my overall message is something that it is not and that I've not so much as alluded to it being. That happens to relatively intelligent folks when they, as readers and listeners, focus more on who says "such and such" rather than limiting their inferences to the what is explicitly written/said and/or alluded to. Is that why my theme went over your head? I don't know; all I can tell by your remarks is that it has.


    Individuals on each side of the matter can cite instances where gun ownership and gun use/misuse metrics ostensibly support the case they aim to make. It's obvious why the NRA, which is the gun industry's organization that exists for the express purpose of promoting public policy that advances or at least does not portend to diminish gun industry profits, do so. I understand too that organizations like the National Coalition to Ban Handguns see themselves as champions of an element of social justice, thus why they espouse the stance they do. Too, it's clear why politicians do so; they are dependent on the resources they receive from organizations that are expressly on one or the other side of the matter.

    What makes no sense to me is why individuals who are not politicians issue or repeat, as well as condone the sophistic lines of rhetoric that comes from politicians and organizations that have some "axe to grind" with regard to the matter. What I'd expect from non-politician citizens is a resounding cry for increased research to determine unequivocally or preponderantly (1) whether there are any set of factors that cause gun misuse and (2) what indeed be the nature and extent of any such factors comprising the causal relationship between guns and the misuse of guns. Research of that nature would serve to remove the realm of politics for upon knowing what be the causes of gun misuse, we can stop tossing about metrics that seem to advance a point of view and stop talking about what causes gun misuse, and instead, act to reduce the impact those causes have and thereby lower the quantity of people injured by gun misuse.

    Mere ownership of guns is not the cause of gun misuse. The problem is that we don't know what be the cause of gun misuse; consequently, there is far too much haranguing about correlations that may or may not be indicative of and point to a sage approach for abating gun misuse and its outcomes. I think it's obvious that a material aspect of the cause has to do with a gun possesser's state of mind; however, the NIMH has been expressly prohibited from conducting research to find out.
     
  4. Meathead
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    Meathead Gold Member

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  5. rightwinger
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    rightwinger Award Winning USMB Paid Messageboard Poster

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  6. iamwhatiseem
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    iamwhatiseem Gold Member

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  7. C_Clayton_Jones
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    Conservatives can't have it both ways.

    If gun laws don't work because there's high crime, then they must be working when crime is low.
     
  8. harmonica
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    harmonica VIP Member

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    St Louis has a higher murder rate than Chicago, LA, and NYC
    STL is very pro-gun
    STL ranks near the top--if not the top--most dangerous cities--Chi, LA, and NYC do not
    STL population density is much lower
    Missouri ranks high in murder rates
    MO is very pro-gun
     
  9. 2aguy
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    actually, more guns made America safer over the last 24 years....

    We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 16.3 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...

    -- gun murder down 49%

    --gun crime down 75%

    --violent crime down 72%

    Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

    Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
     
  10. 2aguy
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    St. Louis, Missouri has had democrats in Charge since 1949.....and they have a revolving door policy for black gun criminals...

    Those are the reasons....not law abiding gun owners....but you know this...because you were shown this before.....that you keep posting about St. Louis, without stating the truth, shows you are a liar....

    Mayor of St. Louis - Wikipedia


    Rise in Murders Has St. Louis Debating Why

    Jennifer M. Joyce, the city’s circuit attorney, or prosecutor, an elected position, complains that in St. Louis, the illegal possession of a gun is too often “a crime without a consequence,” making it difficult to stop confrontation from turning lethal.

    At the same time, deeper social roots of violence such as addiction and unemployment continue unchecked. And city officials also cite what they call a “Ferguson effect,” an increase in crime last year as police officers were diverted to control protests after a white officer shot and killed Michael Brown, an unarmed black teenager in the nearby suburb on Aug. 9.

    -----------

    Now, an overstretched department is forced to pick one neighborhood at a time to flood with officers. Last month, Chief Dotson even asked the state highway patrol if it could lend a dozen men to help watch downtown streets; the agency declined.
    ----
    When the police discover a gun in a car with several passengers, including some with felony records, but no one admits to owning the gun, criminal charges are often impossible, Mr. Rosenfeld said.

    In addition, according to a 2014 study by Mr. Rosenfeld and his colleagues, a majority of those who are convicted of illegally possessing a gun but not caught using it in a crime receive probation rather than jail time. Gun laws and enforcement are stiffer in many other cities.
     

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