Nursing Home financial ambush: Beware!

[JQPublic1]

We are all going to get old and decrepit some day. Where we end up in our old age might depend on how well you have treated your close kin. Old aunt Bertha, who baked apple pies on Sunday and radiated with joy when she invited kinfolk into her home might not have to worry about being cared for by family members if she ever needs it. Old uncle Barney, who was always cantankerous and snarly might be destined for a nursing home. Most of his kin didn't like him when he was healthy and they sure don't like him when he is debilitated. Some even posit that he is finally getting his due for all the trouble he has caused .

Depending on which state he lives in, Barney might have the last laugh. If he is indigent, whether through the Spend Down requirement for MEDICAID or otherwise, his children, brothers, sisters and/or parents might each get a bill from the state demanding payment for his care. Not less than thirty states adhere to the Filial Support law that gave states that right under the Deficit Reduction Act of 2005.

Although George Bush, a Republican president, signed the Bill into law, a surprising number of "blue" states. including California embraced it while a number of "red" states, including Texas, have yet to adopt it.
I'd like to hear from people who live in these Filial Support states. The link below will provide an interactive map that shows which states have adopted this law!

Who pays for nursing home care, Filial Piety Laws, AARP Bulletinetin

 

[Michelle420]

How would anyone be obligated to care for someone once they are a legal adult?

Nobody chooses who they are born to and shouldn't be held liable to care for a parent especially if they were a jerk .

 

[JQPublic1]

How would anyone be obligated to care for someone once they are a legal adult?

Nobody chooses who they are born to and shouldn't be held liable to care for a parent especially if they were a jerk .

If you clicked on the link you saw the states who do not have such laws. But there are many that do! If you clicked on a state in the interactive map, a drop down menu gives a brief encapsulation of that states law. Nevada's Filial law is the most onerous as it extends obligations to brothers and sisters in addition to parents or children.

[SNIPPET]NRS 428.070 Responsibility of relative and recipient of aid for hospitalization provided by county: Reimbursement of county; determination of financial responsibility; action to enforce collection.
1. The father, mother, children, brothers or sisters, of sufficient financial ability so to do, shall pay to the county which has extended county hospitalization to any person under the provisions of NRS 428.030, the amount granted to such person.
[/quote]

 

[Michelle420]

How would anyone be obligated to care for someone once they are a legal adult?

Nobody chooses who they are born to and shouldn't be held liable to care for a parent especially if they were a jerk .

If you clicked on the link you saw the states who do not have such laws. But there are many that do! If you clicked on a state in the interactive map, a drop down menu gives a brief encapsulation of that states law. Nevada's Filial law is the most onerous as it extends obligations to brothers and sisters in addition to parents or children.

NRS 428.070 Responsibility of relative and recipient of aid for hospitalization provided by county: Reimbursement of county; determination of financial responsibility; action to enforce collection.
1. The father, mother, children, brothers or sisters, of sufficient financial ability so to do, shall pay to the county which has extended county hospitalization to any person under the provisions of NRS 428.030, the amount granted to such person.

I honestly do not see how that can be enforced just like when a kid turns 18 his folks are held liable for his/her care anymore.

 

[Wonky Pundit]

What's to stop these relatives from moving to other states?

 

[JQPublic1]

How would anyone be obligated to care for someone once they are a legal adult?

Nobody chooses who they are born to and shouldn't be held liable to care for a parent especially if they were a jerk .

If you clicked on the link you saw the states who do not have such laws. But there are many that do! If you clicked on a state in the interactive map, a drop down menu gives a brief encapsulation of that states law. Nevada's Filial law is the most onerous as it extends obligations to brothers and sisters in addition to parents or children.

NRS 428.070 Responsibility of relative and recipient of aid for hospitalization provided by county: Reimbursement of county; determination of financial responsibility; action to enforce collection.
1. The father, mother, children, brothers or sisters, of sufficient financial ability so to do, shall pay to the county which has extended county hospitalization to any person under the provisions of NRS 428.030, the amount granted to such person.

I honestly do not see how that can be enforced just like when a kid turns 18 his folks are held liable for his/her care anymore.

I am with you on this one... the laws stink. However, as I originally posted, some thirty states have such laws on their books and their laws are backed by the Deficit Reduction Act of 2005. Therefore, the laws are enforceable. I am glad I live in a state that has no such law. I feel that decision should be left up to the individual families and not the state. Still, I see the state's point of view too. Taxpayers ought not have to foot the bill to care for an indigent person whose relatives are people of means. Apparently, though, the law is rarely enforced.

 

[MeBelle]

I'd like to hear from people who live in these Filial Support states. The link below will provide an interactive map that shows which states have adopted this law!

What do you want to hear about?

 

[JQPublic1]

I'd like to hear from people who live in these Filial Support states. The link below will provide an interactive map that shows which states have adopted this law!

What do you want to hear about?

I want to know if these laws are actually being enforced. Perhaps someone here can enlighten us with any experience or knowledge they might have on this matter.

 

[JQPublic1]

What's to stop these relatives from moving to other states?

Nothing except the usual stuff like owning and selling a home; good job; so on and so forth!
But since these Filial laws are implemented with the blessings of the Feds, moving to a non fiial state might not provide the protection one would think it would. I am not an attorney but I suppose the same procedures used to collect from dead beat dads across state lines could also apply to filial law!

 

[MeBelle]

I'd like to hear from people who live in these Filial Support states. The link below will provide an interactive map that shows which states have adopted this law!

What do you want to hear about?

I want to know if these laws are actually being enforced. Perhaps someone here can enlighten us with any experience or knowledge they might have on this matter.

Have never heard of this law being enforced in California while a resident is in a Long Term Skilled Nursing Facility.
But who knows what the State may do once the patient is released?

 

[JQPublic1]

What do you want to hear about?

I want to know if these laws are actually being enforced. Perhaps someone here can enlighten us with any experience or knowledge they might have on this matter.

Have never heard of this law being enforced in California while a resident is in a Long Term Skilled Nursing Facility.
But who knows what the State may do once the patient is released?

Well, a person in a LTCF was smart enough to buy the LTC insurance when they were young. Most Americans don't have that kind of insurance. So when MEDICARE runs out MEDICAID kicks in after all of their liquid assets have been exhausted and no one wants to take them in. Here is where the Filial law applies!

 

[MeBelle]

Well, a person in a LTCF was smart enough to buy the LTC insurance when they were young. Most Americans don't have that kind of insurance. So when MEDICARE runs out MEDICAID kicks in after all of their liquid assets have been exhausted and no one wants to take them in. Here is where the Filial law applies!

The source you reference cites Family Code and Welfare and Institutions Code.

The source you reference cites for Family Code, left out the prior code, where the 'child' has taken legal fiduciary responsibility for the parent.
The Family Code your source cites is the way the 'child' can attempt to break the contract.

BUT...

Welfare and Institutions Code clearly states : No relative shall be held legally liable to support or to contribute to the support of any applicant for or recipient of aid under this chapter. No relative shall be held liable to defray in whole or in part the cost of any medical care or hospital care or other service rendered to the recipient pursuant to any provision of this code if he is an applicant for or a recipient of aid under this chapter at the time such medical care or hospital care or other service is rendered.
CA Welf & Inst Code § 12350 :: Section 12350 :: 2011 California Code :: US Codes and Statutes :: US Law :: Justia

 

[LilOlLady]

Nursing homes are subsidized by tax payers money. medicare and medicaid and most elderly has already paid into the system. I have MS and after a flare up I often to to a nursing home as a rehab patient for a few weeks for PT,etc. I just had a flare ups and was sent to one and after 3 hours of waiting for a clean room, i called a taxi and went home. My doctor has ordered home healthcare and PT for me to receive at home. I have worked over 50 years and have paid for these benefits and well deserve them Many paid and never live to use them. Medicare pay for the first 21 days and then Medicaid picks it up. Nurning homes are also used as end of life hospic care. I don't intend to have anything they can take to pay for my care that I have already paid for. My mother died in a nursing home but her home was never touched and she liquadated her assets before entering. She paid into the system and no reason for her to be broke to be cared for at her end of life.

 

[JQPublic1]

Well, a person in a LTCF was smart enough to buy the LTC insurance when they were young. Most Americans don't have that kind of insurance. So when MEDICARE runs out MEDICAID kicks in after all of their liquid assets have been exhausted and no one wants to take them in. Here is where the Filial law applies!

The source you reference cites Family Code and Welfare and Institutions Code.

The source you reference cites for Family Code, left out the prior code, where the 'child' has taken legal fiduciary responsibility for the parent.
The Family Code your source cites is the way the 'child' can attempt to break the contract.

BUT...

Welfare and Institutions Code clearly states : No relative shall be held legally liable to support or to contribute to the support of any applicant for or recipient of aid under this chapter. No relative shall be held liable to defray in whole or in part the cost of any medical care or hospital care or other service rendered to the recipient pursuant to any provision of this code if he is an applicant for or a recipient of aid under this chapter at the time such medical care or hospital care or other service is rendered.
CA Welf & Inst Code § 12350 :: Section 12350 :: 2011 California Code :: US Codes and Statutes :: US Law :: Justia

My citation was from the Nevada Code,n ot the California Code.
I was not citing anything other than the sources noted in the link I provided. I don't claim to be an expert on Filial law, I just think people ought to be aware of it and discuss it. After all, these laws seemed to have been passed surreptitiously and were not well publicized.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Suicide is a viable option -- self deport

 

[JQPublic1]

Nursing homes are subsidized by tax payers money. medicare and medicaid and most elderly has already paid into the system. I have MS and after a flare up I often to to a nursing home as a rehab patient for a few weeks for PT,etc. I just had a flare ups and was sent to one and after 3 hours of waiting for a clean room, i called a taxi and went home. My doctor has ordered home healthcare and PT for me to receive at home. I have worked over 50 years and have paid for these benefits and well deserve them Many paid and never live to use them. Medicare pay for the first 21 days and then Medicaid picks it up. Nurning homes are also used as end of life hospic care. I don't intend to have anything they can take to pay for my care that I have already paid for. My mother died in a nursing home but her home was never touched and she liquadated her assets before entering. She paid into the system and no reason for her to be broke to be cared for at her end of life.

Thanks for your input LilOLady. I see that you live in Nevada; a state that has Filial law. Judging from your personal testimony, the law is not being strictly enforced there. I do suggest that you look a bit closer at the MEDICARE caps and limits. Neither MEDICARE or MEDICAID pay for Long Term Care. LTC is separate insurance.

BTW my sympathies to you for the loss of your mother. You say she died in a nursing home after the state relieved her of most liquid assets. before entering. How long was she in the nursing home and how long ago did she pass? You may not be accountable for the bill if your income isn't high enough but any close relatives with such income may be held liable under Nevada law!

 

[uscitizen]

How would anyone be obligated to care for someone once they are a legal adult?

Nobody chooses who they are born to and shouldn't be held liable to care for a parent especially if they were a jerk .

To go one further no one chooses to be born.

 

[Michelle420]

How would anyone be obligated to care for someone once they are a legal adult?

Nobody chooses who they are born to and shouldn't be held liable to care for a parent especially if they were a jerk .

To go one further no one chooses to be born.

I have pondered that as well, many times I have wondered why I was born.

 

[Wonky Pundit]

What's to stop these relatives from moving to other states?

Nothing except the usual stuff like owning and selling a home; good job; so on and so forth!
But since these Filial laws are implemented with the blessings of the Feds, moving to a non fiial state might not provide the protection one would think it would. I am not an attorney but I suppose the same procedures used to collect from dead beat dads across state lines could also apply to filial law!

Do you happen to know whether any state has tried to do this?

 

[JQPublic1]

What's to stop these relatives from moving to other states?

Nothing except the usual stuff like owning and selling a home; good job; so on and so forth!
But since these Filial laws are implemented with the blessings of the Feds, moving to a non fiial state might not provide the protection one would think it would. I am not an attorney but I suppose the same procedures used to collect from dead beat dads across state lines could also apply to filial law!

Do you happen to know whether any state has tried to do this?

No... that is why I started this thread to learn from those who might have had an experience!