Number of guns in society falling sharply

[westwall]

No, it was a lot less than that from the CREDIBLE numbers.

But you really have to sift the numbers to find ones that favor you.

Joe, reading your posts makes me wish this message board had, beside the like button, a big ole red 'fuck you' button too.

I'm sure you do. But that's the problem with you crazies....

You cling to your guns and the bible and try to ignore reality.

You, a known bigot, call us crazies, You can't write this level of entertainment!

 

[Ernie S.]

Threads Joe and Saigon show up in do tend to resemble the monkey house at the zoo.

A bunch of people standing around watching sub-humans throwing poo.

It is entertaining, but not very attractive or intellectually stimulating

 

[Saigon]

You take away guns, some people simply won't kill themselves. Some will try other methods and fail because those other methods are harder or easier to stop.

When ovens were redesigned to make it harder to stick your head in an oven, the number of suicides dropped by a third in the UK.

Indeed - and again we are discussing something which is a proven, known fact.

Because guns are such a fast and efficient method of suicide that require little planning, availability of guns IS a factor in suicides. We know this.

Reduce the availability of guns, and we reduce the suicide rate.

And no amount of spamming and abuse here is going to change that.

 

[Saigon]

Here is a graph of sucide rates and the gun buy-back scheme:

Did gun control work in Australia?

 

[Missourian]

Here is a graph of sucide rates and the gun buy-back scheme:

Did gun control work in Australia?

This doesn't say what you are purporting.

It says that removing guns reduced firearm suicides.

But did the overall suicide rate decrease.

I addressed this very question in regards to the U.K. gun ban...and the answer was a resounding no.

The overall suicide rate INCREASED and years later declined to pre-ban rates, from whence it continued a decline at exactly the pre-ban progression.

This argument is undermined by the UK suicide rates which after being on the decline, spiked AFTER the 1997 Firearms Act, and remained at that heightened level for 4 years...resuming the decline at a similar rate as before the 1997 confiscation.

​

You'll also notice that the suicide rate in the UK is only .2 less per 100,000 than the U.S. (11.8 and 12 respectively) with only 4% of UK suicides being by firearm.

The method of suicide transferred from firearms to hanging and poisoning.

Obviously rope ENABLES hanging and the solution is to restrict it's sale?

If common sense didn't show the error of this reasoning...the historical evidence above should prove it.

They banned firearms and that didn't reduce their suicides at a rate faster than it was already declining...ban rope and they'll asphyxiate themselves with carbon monoxide...ban combustion engines and they'll leap from tall buildings...ad infinitum...

Removing guns did not reduce suicide...in fact suicides increased...making this a false argument.

 

[Missourian]

I also pointed out evidence that removing guns did not reduce overall homicides...in fact, they also increased...

The U.K.'s homicide rate is almost EXACTLY what is was before all handguns were banned.

That's the point.

The homicide rate increased after handguns were banned, even after excluding the cited deaths.

They have just recently returned to pre-ban levels.

Now look at the U.S.

We are also experiencing a near all time low in homicides.

 

[westwall]

You take away guns, some people simply won't kill themselves. Some will try other methods and fail because those other methods are harder or easier to stop.

When ovens were redesigned to make it harder to stick your head in an oven, the number of suicides dropped by a third in the UK.

Indeed - and again we are discussing something which is a proven, known fact.

Because guns are such a fast and efficient method of suicide that require little planning, availability of guns IS a factor in suicides. We know this.

Reduce the availability of guns, and we reduce the suicide rate.

And no amount of spamming and abuse here is going to change that.

Just as much a "fact" as your claims of AGW or your claim to be Finnish...eh bucky?

You know, you can claim anything you wish but the real world no longer listens to you clowns. We KNOW you are full of crap.

 

[westwall]

I also pointed out evidence that removing guns did not reduce overall homicides...in fact, they also increased...

The U.K.'s homicide rate is almost EXACTLY what is was before all handguns were banned.

That's the point.

The homicide rate increased after handguns were banned, even after excluding the cited deaths.

They have just recently returned to pre-ban levels.

Now look at the U.S.

We are also experiencing a near all time low in homicides.

Yeah, they don't do facts. Facts hurt their meme so they patently ignore them.

 

[Saigon]

Missourian-

This doesn't say what you are purporting.

It says that removing guns reduced firearm suicides.

But did the overall suicide rate decrease.

I don't see the relevance of that, really, because it introduces too many other variables. Research conducted by Harvard has established that because suicide attempts using firearms is more effective than with, for instance, drugs or razor blades; the availability of firearms is a factor in the overall suicide rate.

Hence, reducing the number of firearms does reduce the number of suicides in households that havehad access to weapons, but I totally agree that this does not mean the overall suicide rate necessarily drops.

 

[Saigon]

Missourian -

I also pointed out evidence that removing guns did not reduce overall homicides...in fact, they also increased...

The overall homicide rate in the UK now is at its lowest point since 1983 - after a very large spike.

The UK police have stated very clearly that they see the change in gun laws as having been a major factor in reducing the overall murder rate, and that is good enough for me.

Certainly the US rate has dropped as well, but is still at a much higher rate than any other developed country.


Westwall -

Please avoid spamming the thread with garbage. Let other posters discuss the topic sensibly.

 

[Unkotare]

Westwall -

Please avoid spamming the thread with garbage. Let other posters discuss the topic sensibly.

Pretentious Douche,

Please avoid telling everyone who disagrees with you how, what, and if to post. You do this in every thread in which you post. Your 'demands' in this regard mean jack shit, like almost everything you have to say.

 

[skookerasbil]

Recently released Harvard study = real bad news for the gun control zombies........

The stats dominate............ MORE guns = less crime

Does Owning Guns Reduce Crime?

 

[Missourian]

Missourian-

This doesn't say what you are purporting.

It says that removing guns reduced firearm suicides.

But did the overall suicide rate decrease.

I don't see the relevance of that, really, because it introduces too many other variables. Research conducted by Harvard has established that because suicide attempts using firearms is more effective than with, for instance, drugs or razor blades; the availability of firearms is a factor in the overall suicide rate.

Hence, reducing the number of firearms does reduce the number of suicides in households that havehad access to weapons, but I totally agree that this does not mean the overall suicide rate necessarily drops.

But if the overall suicide rate doesn't drop...what has been accomplished?

Nothing.

Those people still killed themselves. Even though they didn't have access to a gun.

If guns were the problem, when they were removed, the suicide rate show have dropped.

It didn't...it actually increased. They just switched methods to hanging or leaping, which is equally lethal.

You cannot protect people from themselves.

That is why I dismiss suicide prevention as a motivation for gun control.

The evidence is against it.

 

[Missourian]

Missourian -

I also pointed out evidence that removing guns did not reduce overall homicides...in fact, they also increased...

The overall homicide rate in the UK now is at its lowest point since 1983 - after a very large spike.

The UK police have stated very clearly that they see the change in gun laws as having been a major factor in reducing the overall murder rate, and that is good enough for me.

Certainly the US rate has dropped as well, but is still at a much higher rate than any other developed country.

But it is at a near all time low for America, just like the UK.

Banning handguns did not reduce the overall homicide rate in the UK...in fact, the homicide rate increased.

Let's look at some other countries who banned and restrict/register firearms:


Australia: 1996

​

Canada: 1991

​

United Kingdom: 1997

The United States:

​

You'll notice that the trends are remarkably similar.

That homicides fell at roughly the same times and at the same rates in the United States as the countries that instituted gun bans and restrictions.

That evidence leads me to believe that gun control had very little effect on homicide rates.



​

 

[westwall]

Missourian-

This doesn't say what you are purporting.

It says that removing guns reduced firearm suicides.

But did the overall suicide rate decrease.

I don't see the relevance of that, really, because it introduces too many other variables. Research conducted by Harvard has established that because suicide attempts using firearms is more effective than with, for instance, drugs or razor blades; the availability of firearms is a factor in the overall suicide rate.

Hence, reducing the number of firearms does reduce the number of suicides in households that havehad access to weapons, but I totally agree that this does not mean the overall suicide rate necessarily drops.

Of course you don't see the relevance of that. It destroys your whole argument so you ignore it. Par for the course with folks like you.

 

[westwall]

Missourian -

I also pointed out evidence that removing guns did not reduce overall homicides...in fact, they also increased...

The overall homicide rate in the UK now is at its lowest point since 1983 - after a very large spike.

The UK police have stated very clearly that they see the change in gun laws as having been a major factor in reducing the overall murder rate, and that is good enough for me.

Certainly the US rate has dropped as well, but is still at a much higher rate than any other developed country.


Westwall -

Please avoid spamming the thread with garbage. Let other posters discuss the topic sensibly.

Saggy-

Piss off. I will give as good as I get. Your patently absurd, and intellectually dishonest viewpoint renders all of your arguments moot. You are a known prevaricator so you get zero respect because you have earned none.

 

[Saigon]

Missourian-

This doesn't say what you are purporting.

It says that removing guns reduced firearm suicides.

But did the overall suicide rate decrease.

I don't see the relevance of that, really, because it introduces too many other variables. Research conducted by Harvard has established that because suicide attempts using firearms is more effective than with, for instance, drugs or razor blades; the availability of firearms is a factor in the overall suicide rate.

Hence, reducing the number of firearms does reduce the number of suicides in households that havehad access to weapons, but I totally agree that this does not mean the overall suicide rate necessarily drops.

But if the overall suicide rate doesn't drop...what has been accomplished?

Nothing.

Those people still killed themselves. Even though they didn't have access to a gun.

If guns were the problem, when they were removed, the suicide rate show have dropped.

It didn't...it actually increased. They just switched methods to hanging or leaping, which is equally lethal.

You cannot protect people from themselves.

That is why I dismiss suicide prevention as a motivation for gun control.

The evidence is against it.

A large number of lives were saved - that is what was accomplished.

We KNOW that the gun buy-back scheme in Australia was effective. We KNOW that it saved lives.

Some people undoubtedly switched methods, but research shows many people do not.

I don't think anyone expected that it would bring suicide to an end. One has to be realistic about the extent to which any single act can prevent suicide or murder.

 

[Saigon]

Missourian -

You'll notice that the trends are remarkably similar.

That homicides fell at roughly the same times and at the same rates in the United States as the countries that instituted gun bans and restrictions.

That evidence leads me to believe that gun control had very little effect on homicide rates.

The trends are similar I agree - but this does not mean that the causes for those trends are necessarily the same.

Much as we know that there is more than one reason for the atmosphere to warm, there is also more than one reason why murder rates might fall.

It may well be that the fall in the number of US households owning guns is a factor.

As mentioned earlier, the UK police suggest gun control has been very effective, and I tend to believe them.

 

[Missourian]

Missourian-

I don't see the relevance of that, really, because it introduces too many other variables. Research conducted by Harvard has established that because suicide attempts using firearms is more effective than with, for instance, drugs or razor blades; the availability of firearms is a factor in the overall suicide rate.

Hence, reducing the number of firearms does reduce the number of suicides in households that havehad access to weapons, but I totally agree that this does not mean the overall suicide rate necessarily drops.

But if the overall suicide rate doesn't drop...what has been accomplished?

Nothing.

Those people still killed themselves. Even though they didn't have access to a gun.

If guns were the problem, when they were removed, the suicide rate show have dropped.

It didn't...it actually increased. They just switched methods to hanging or leaping, which is equally lethal.

You cannot protect people from themselves.

That is why I dismiss suicide prevention as a motivation for gun control.

The evidence is against it.

A large number of lives were saved - that is what was accomplished.

We KNOW that the gun buy-back scheme in Australia was effective. We KNOW that it saved lives.

Some people undoubtedly switched methods, but research shows many people do not.

I don't think anyone expected that it would bring suicide to an end. One has to be realistic about the extent to which any single act can prevent suicide or murder.

No, we don't.

If the suicide rate did not drop SUBSTANTIALLY, the same number of people committed suicide.

Now take a look...and Australian authorities made this extremely difficult...they only wanted to show the last decade, not the time period directly before or after the buy back...

The buyback occurred in 1997...the spike in suicides occurs AFTER the buyback, and then returns to traditional levels.

So no...no lives were saved...in fact the case can be made that the buyback prompted the spike in suicide...meaning it actually cost lives.

Here are the links...it takes three to get the whole story.

3309.0 - Suicides, Australia, 2010

http://www.ausstats.abs.gov.au/ausstats/subscriber.nsf/0/4410D945E6F9BF2FCA256F6A00735523/$File/3309055001_1993%20to%202003.pdf

http://www.ausstats.abs.gov.au/auss...CA2568BD0012ECBC/$File/33090_1921 to 1998.pdf

 

[Missourian]

Here is the chart, to make the lack of reduction more clear...

And as you can see...the NON-FIREARM suicide rate was really the driving force behind the reduction...which has nothing at all to do with the buyback.

Plus, the decline in firearm suicides was ALREADY on the decline long before the buyback...and that decline was not accelerated by the gun control enacted in '97.

Link... Results of the '96 Australian Gun Laws (updated 2009) (GunsAndCrime.org)