Nuclear Fusion (Endless and Clean Energy Source)

[mamooth]

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

It's been "very close" for the past 20 years. And in another 20 years, it will no doubt still be "very close". For example, the European ITER facility is optimistically predicting to have sustained fusion going by ... 2035. That's not even an actual electric power generating facility, just a demo that fusion can get more energy out than put in.

Then, even if it does, works, it won't be able to compete economically with any form of electricity generation. Costs for ITER are already around $25 billion and climbing.

 

[miketx]

What's really interesting is that we cannot sustain a fusion reaction unless we use an atomic bomb to trigger it.

 

[bripat9643]

Look, we already have a tame fusion reactor. That big yellow thing in the sky. All we have to do is harvest what it sends to us daily. We can do that in two ways that result in no pollution, solar and wind. Both are now the cheapest forms of energy available. Both are scalable, especially solar. India, China, and, now, even Mexico, are putting in gigawatt installations that will produce electricity cheaper than it has ever been produced before.

Solar energy is weak and unreliable. It will never power an advanced society.

 

[bripat9643]

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

It's been "very close" for the past 20 years. And in another 20 years, it will no doubt still be "very close". For example, the European ITER facility is optimistically predicting to have sustained fusion going by ... 2035. That's not even an actual electric power generating facility, just a demo that fusion can get more energy out than put in.

Then, even if it does, works, it won't be able to compete economically with any form of electricity generation. Costs for ITER are already around $25 billion and climbing.

Private companies like Lockheed are getting involved and achieving dramatic results. A group at MIT is also achieving dramatic results by working on small scale reactors. If the government took all the money it spends on so-called "clean energy," fusion would be achieved quite soon.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Look, we already have a tame fusion reactor. That big yellow thing in the sky. All we have to do is harvest what it sends to us daily. We can do that in two ways that result in no pollution, solar and wind. Both are now the cheapest forms of energy available. Both are scalable, especially solar. India, China, and, now, even Mexico, are putting in gigawatt installations that will produce electricity cheaper than it has ever been produced before.

Solar energy is weak and unreliable. It will never power an advanced society.

Solar power satellites.
Generate power 24 hours a day, beam it down to Earth.
We could build them on the Moon. Plenty of silicon and aluminum.

 

[polarbear]

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source. It is called nuclear fusion. It is different than the nuclear fission reaction that is used in today’s nuclear reactors. Nuclear fission is based on splitting large atoms such as uranium or plutonium, and even though it releases a great amount of energy, it also generates radioactive waste.

If you wonder for furher info, you can find whole article here:
Nuclear Fusion

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source. It is called nuclear fusion. It is different than the nuclear fission reaction that is used in today’s nuclear reactors. Nuclear fission is based on splitting large atoms such as uranium or plutonium, and even though it releases a great amount of energy, it also generates radioactive waste.

If you wonder for furher info, you can find whole article here:
Nuclear Fusion

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source. It is called nuclear fusion. It is different than the nuclear fission reaction that is used in today’s nuclear reactors. Nuclear fission is based on splitting large atoms such as uranium or plutonium, and even though it releases a great amount of energy, it also generates radioactive waste.

If you wonder for furher info, you can find whole article here:
Nuclear Fusion

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.
We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.
But they don`t want to hear that. Nor do they want consider that the biggest obstacle is for how long we can maintain a plasma at the temperature required while compressing it to a density ~ 8 times higher than depleted Uranium at the same time The world record for that is about the same as for how long a human can hold his breath and we need that time to be 24 hours/day each and every day.

 

[bripat9643]

Look, we already have a tame fusion reactor. That big yellow thing in the sky. All we have to do is harvest what it sends to us daily. We can do that in two ways that result in no pollution, solar and wind. Both are now the cheapest forms of energy available. Both are scalable, especially solar. India, China, and, now, even Mexico, are putting in gigawatt installations that will produce electricity cheaper than it has ever been produced before.

Solar energy is weak and unreliable. It will never power an advanced society.

Solar power satellites.
Generate power 24 hours a day, beam it down to Earth.
We could build them on the Moon. Plenty of silicon and aluminum.

Getting fusion to work would be cheaper and better in every way.

 

[bripat9643]

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source. It is called nuclear fusion. It is different than the nuclear fission reaction that is used in today’s nuclear reactors. Nuclear fission is based on splitting large atoms such as uranium or plutonium, and even though it releases a great amount of energy, it also generates radioactive waste.

If you wonder for furher info, you can find whole article here:
Nuclear Fusion

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source. It is called nuclear fusion. It is different than the nuclear fission reaction that is used in today’s nuclear reactors. Nuclear fission is based on splitting large atoms such as uranium or plutonium, and even though it releases a great amount of energy, it also generates radioactive waste.

If you wonder for furher info, you can find whole article here:
Nuclear Fusion

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source. It is called nuclear fusion. It is different than the nuclear fission reaction that is used in today’s nuclear reactors. Nuclear fission is based on splitting large atoms such as uranium or plutonium, and even though it releases a great amount of energy, it also generates radioactive waste.

If you wonder for furher info, you can find whole article here:
Nuclear Fusion

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.
We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.
But they don`t want to hear that. Nor do they want consider that the biggest obstacle is for how long we can maintain a plasma at the temperature required while compressing it to a density ~ 8 times higher than depleted Uranium at the same time The world record for that is about the same as for how long a human can hold his breath and we need that time to be 24 hours/day each and every day.

It doesn't need to be compressed "to a density ~ 8 times higher than depleted Uranium." Plasma is even more rarefied than a gas. It's not where near the density of a solid.

 

[polarbear]

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source. It is called nuclear fusion. It is different than the nuclear fission reaction that is used in today’s nuclear reactors. Nuclear fission is based on splitting large atoms such as uranium or plutonium, and even though it releases a great amount of energy, it also generates radioactive waste.

If you wonder for furher info, you can find whole article here:
Nuclear Fusion

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source. It is called nuclear fusion. It is different than the nuclear fission reaction that is used in today’s nuclear reactors. Nuclear fission is based on splitting large atoms such as uranium or plutonium, and even though it releases a great amount of energy, it also generates radioactive waste.

If you wonder for furher info, you can find whole article here:
Nuclear Fusion

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source. It is called nuclear fusion. It is different than the nuclear fission reaction that is used in today’s nuclear reactors. Nuclear fission is based on splitting large atoms such as uranium or plutonium, and even though it releases a great amount of energy, it also generates radioactive waste.

If you wonder for furher info, you can find whole article here:
Nuclear Fusion

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.
We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.
But they don`t want to hear that. Nor do they want consider that the biggest obstacle is for how long we can maintain a plasma at the temperature required while compressing it to a density ~ 8 times higher than depleted Uranium at the same time The world record for that is about the same as for how long a human can hold his breath and we need that time to be 24 hours/day each and every day.

It doesn't need to be compressed "to a density ~ 8 times higher than depleted Uranium." Plasma is even more rarefied than a gas. It's not where near the density of a solid.

Having a plasma is one thing, fusing it requires a high (!!) density.

 

[bripat9643]

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source. It is called nuclear fusion. It is different than the nuclear fission reaction that is used in today’s nuclear reactors. Nuclear fission is based on splitting large atoms such as uranium or plutonium, and even though it releases a great amount of energy, it also generates radioactive waste.

If you wonder for furher info, you can find whole article here:
Nuclear Fusion

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source. It is called nuclear fusion. It is different than the nuclear fission reaction that is used in today’s nuclear reactors. Nuclear fission is based on splitting large atoms such as uranium or plutonium, and even though it releases a great amount of energy, it also generates radioactive waste.

If you wonder for furher info, you can find whole article here:
Nuclear Fusion

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source. It is called nuclear fusion. It is different than the nuclear fission reaction that is used in today’s nuclear reactors. Nuclear fission is based on splitting large atoms such as uranium or plutonium, and even though it releases a great amount of energy, it also generates radioactive waste.

If you wonder for furher info, you can find whole article here:
Nuclear Fusion

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.
We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.
But they don`t want to hear that. Nor do they want consider that the biggest obstacle is for how long we can maintain a plasma at the temperature required while compressing it to a density ~ 8 times higher than depleted Uranium at the same time The world record for that is about the same as for how long a human can hold his breath and we need that time to be 24 hours/day each and every day.

It doesn't need to be compressed "to a density ~ 8 times higher than depleted Uranium." Plasma is even more rarefied than a gas. It's not where near the density of a solid.

Having a plasma is one thing, fusing it requires a high (!!) density.

It doesn't require the density of uranium. You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Look, we already have a tame fusion reactor. That big yellow thing in the sky. All we have to do is harvest what it sends to us daily. We can do that in two ways that result in no pollution, solar and wind. Both are now the cheapest forms of energy available. Both are scalable, especially solar. India, China, and, now, even Mexico, are putting in gigawatt installations that will produce electricity cheaper than it has ever been produced before.

Solar energy is weak and unreliable. It will never power an advanced society.

Solar power satellites.
Generate power 24 hours a day, beam it down to Earth.
We could build them on the Moon. Plenty of silicon and aluminum.

Getting fusion to work would be cheaper and better in every way.

We could build power satellites now. We can't build a fusion reactor now.
A manufacturing facility on the Moon would be very useful.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source. It is called nuclear fusion. It is different than the nuclear fission reaction that is used in today’s nuclear reactors. Nuclear fission is based on splitting large atoms such as uranium or plutonium, and even though it releases a great amount of energy, it also generates radioactive waste.

If you wonder for furher info, you can find whole article here:
Nuclear Fusion

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source. It is called nuclear fusion. It is different than the nuclear fission reaction that is used in today’s nuclear reactors. Nuclear fission is based on splitting large atoms such as uranium or plutonium, and even though it releases a great amount of energy, it also generates radioactive waste.

If you wonder for furher info, you can find whole article here:
Nuclear Fusion

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source. It is called nuclear fusion. It is different than the nuclear fission reaction that is used in today’s nuclear reactors. Nuclear fission is based on splitting large atoms such as uranium or plutonium, and even though it releases a great amount of energy, it also generates radioactive waste.

If you wonder for furher info, you can find whole article here:
Nuclear Fusion

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.
We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.
But they don`t want to hear that. Nor do they want consider that the biggest obstacle is for how long we can maintain a plasma at the temperature required while compressing it to a density ~ 8 times higher than depleted Uranium at the same time The world record for that is about the same as for how long a human can hold his breath and we need that time to be 24 hours/day each and every day.

It doesn't need to be compressed "to a density ~ 8 times higher than depleted Uranium." Plasma is even more rarefied than a gas. It's not where near the density of a solid.

How dense does it need to be to allow fusion to occur?
Give me your best estimate...…..

 

[bripat9643]

Look, we already have a tame fusion reactor. That big yellow thing in the sky. All we have to do is harvest what it sends to us daily. We can do that in two ways that result in no pollution, solar and wind. Both are now the cheapest forms of energy available. Both are scalable, especially solar. India, China, and, now, even Mexico, are putting in gigawatt installations that will produce electricity cheaper than it has ever been produced before.

Solar energy is weak and unreliable. It will never power an advanced society.

Solar power satellites.
Generate power 24 hours a day, beam it down to Earth.
We could build them on the Moon. Plenty of silicon and aluminum.

Getting fusion to work would be cheaper and better in every way.

We could build power satellites now. We can't build a fusion reactor now.
A manufacturing facility on the Moon would be very useful.

How many launches do you think it would take to put enough parts and material in orbit to build enough of these satellites to power the entire planet?

 

[bripat9643]

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source. It is called nuclear fusion. It is different than the nuclear fission reaction that is used in today’s nuclear reactors. Nuclear fission is based on splitting large atoms such as uranium or plutonium, and even though it releases a great amount of energy, it also generates radioactive waste.

If you wonder for furher info, you can find whole article here:
Nuclear Fusion

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source. It is called nuclear fusion. It is different than the nuclear fission reaction that is used in today’s nuclear reactors. Nuclear fission is based on splitting large atoms such as uranium or plutonium, and even though it releases a great amount of energy, it also generates radioactive waste.

If you wonder for furher info, you can find whole article here:
Nuclear Fusion

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source. It is called nuclear fusion. It is different than the nuclear fission reaction that is used in today’s nuclear reactors. Nuclear fission is based on splitting large atoms such as uranium or plutonium, and even though it releases a great amount of energy, it also generates radioactive waste.

If you wonder for furher info, you can find whole article here:
Nuclear Fusion

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.
We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.
But they don`t want to hear that. Nor do they want consider that the biggest obstacle is for how long we can maintain a plasma at the temperature required while compressing it to a density ~ 8 times higher than depleted Uranium at the same time The world record for that is about the same as for how long a human can hold his breath and we need that time to be 24 hours/day each and every day.

It doesn't need to be compressed "to a density ~ 8 times higher than depleted Uranium." Plasma is even more rarefied than a gas. It's not where near the density of a solid.

How dense does it need to be to allow fusion to occur?
Give me your best estimate...…..

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Look, we already have a tame fusion reactor. That big yellow thing in the sky. All we have to do is harvest what it sends to us daily. We can do that in two ways that result in no pollution, solar and wind. Both are now the cheapest forms of energy available. Both are scalable, especially solar. India, China, and, now, even Mexico, are putting in gigawatt installations that will produce electricity cheaper than it has ever been produced before.

Solar energy is weak and unreliable. It will never power an advanced society.

Solar power satellites.
Generate power 24 hours a day, beam it down to Earth.
We could build them on the Moon. Plenty of silicon and aluminum.

Getting fusion to work would be cheaper and better in every way.

We could build power satellites now. We can't build a fusion reactor now.
A manufacturing facility on the Moon would be very useful.

How many launches do you think it would take to put enough parts and material in orbit to build enough of these satellites to power the entire planet?

How many fusion reactors that haven't been invented yet would it take to do the same?

Look, there is plenty of material on the Moon for most of the parts you'd need.

Would it be a huge, multi-trillion dollar project? You bet your ass.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source. It is called nuclear fusion. It is different than the nuclear fission reaction that is used in today’s nuclear reactors. Nuclear fission is based on splitting large atoms such as uranium or plutonium, and even though it releases a great amount of energy, it also generates radioactive waste.

If you wonder for furher info, you can find whole article here:
Nuclear Fusion

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source. It is called nuclear fusion. It is different than the nuclear fission reaction that is used in today’s nuclear reactors. Nuclear fission is based on splitting large atoms such as uranium or plutonium, and even though it releases a great amount of energy, it also generates radioactive waste.

If you wonder for furher info, you can find whole article here:
Nuclear Fusion

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source. It is called nuclear fusion. It is different than the nuclear fission reaction that is used in today’s nuclear reactors. Nuclear fission is based on splitting large atoms such as uranium or plutonium, and even though it releases a great amount of energy, it also generates radioactive waste.

If you wonder for furher info, you can find whole article here:
Nuclear Fusion

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.
We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.
But they don`t want to hear that. Nor do they want consider that the biggest obstacle is for how long we can maintain a plasma at the temperature required while compressing it to a density ~ 8 times higher than depleted Uranium at the same time The world record for that is about the same as for how long a human can hold his breath and we need that time to be 24 hours/day each and every day.

It doesn't need to be compressed "to a density ~ 8 times higher than depleted Uranium." Plasma is even more rarefied than a gas. It's not where near the density of a solid.

How dense does it need to be to allow fusion to occur?
Give me your best estimate...…..

View attachment 214189

Thanks. So how dense is that compared to uranium?

 

[polarbear]

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.

We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.

Humanity is very close to achieving a nearly endless and clean energy source.
We've been 20 years away, for at least 30 years now.
But they don`t want to hear that. Nor do they want consider that the biggest obstacle is for how long we can maintain a plasma at the temperature required while compressing it to a density ~ 8 times higher than depleted Uranium at the same time The world record for that is about the same as for how long a human can hold his breath and we need that time to be 24 hours/day each and every day.

It doesn't need to be compressed "to a density ~ 8 times higher than depleted Uranium." Plasma is even more rarefied than a gas. It's not where near the density of a solid.

How dense does it need to be to allow fusion to occur?
Give me your best estimate...…..

View attachment 214189

Thanks. So how dense is that compared to uranium?

I wonder if he realizes that he cemented his feet in 2 concrete buckets while walking on thin ice.
Instead of answering the question he simply posted the Lawson Criteria he stumbled upon with Google.
After he found it he could have answered it but did not, hoping nobody else would bother to check what you get by solving n*t > (or =) 2 * 10^14 for n, the minimum required ion density to even begin nuclear fusion.
The ballpark density for n which I used was what it takes to maintain a self sustaining fusion, which is what we are after if we want to build nuclear fusion power plants.

 

[mamooth]

I'm not going to pretend I understand everything in this wiki article, but I'll quote the important bit.

Lawson criterion - Wikipedia
---
Satisfaction of this criterion at the density of solid deuterium–tritium (0.2 g/cm³) would require a laser pulse of implausibly large energy. Assuming the energy required scales with the mass of the fusion plasma (Elaser ~ ρR3 ~ ρ−2), compressing the fuel to 103 or 104 times solid density would reduce the energy required by a factor of 106 or 108, bringing it into a realistic range. With a compression by 103, the compressed density will be 200 g/cm³, and the compressed radius can be as small as 0.05 mm.
---

It does seem to be saying that, to get a realistically possible sustained fusion reaction, the deuterium/tritium fuel has be condensed to somewhere around 10 times as dense as uranium (19 g/cm^3)

 

[polarbear]

I'm not going to pretend I understand everything in this wiki article, but I'll quote the important bit.

Lawson criterion - Wikipedia
---
Satisfaction of this criterion at the density of solid deuterium–tritium (0.2 g/cm³) would require a laser pulse of implausibly large energy. Assuming the energy required scales with the mass of the fusion plasma (Elaser ~ ρR3 ~ ρ−2), compressing the fuel to 103 or 104 times solid density would reduce the energy required by a factor of 106 or 108, bringing it into a realistic range. With a compression by 103, the compressed density will be 200 g/cm³, and the compressed radius can be as small as 0.05 mm.
---

It does seem to be saying that, to get a realistically possible sustained fusion reaction, the deuterium/tritium fuel has be condensed to somewhere around 10 times as dense as uranium (19 g/cm^3)

It does seem to be saying that, to get a realistically possible sustained fusion reaction, the deuterium/tritium fuel has be condensed to somewhere around 10 times as dense as uranium (19 g/cm^3)
It does say exactly what you think it says....and we now have a bipartisan consensus although it`s only about nuclear fusion.