Newly Elected Muslim Congresswomen Favor Eliminating Israel

[Shusha]

Who decides who is Jewish?

The STANDARD, worldwide is: 1. Self-identification. 2. Acceptance within the group.

The very fact that you (as an outsider) are questioning this is problematic.

 

[Coyote]

[
And like it or not that complicates the picture and noting that is not applying a different standard.

It complicates the picture not at all. The STANDARD in the world is that ethnic and cultural groups have established national entities (States) based on that ethnic or cultural group.

YOU are trying to "complicate" the picture by introducing "what-ifs" to Israel that you do not introduce elsewhere.

You posed the question:

Would it and could it it truly be equal in a nation that has defined itself as a Jewish homeland ...

Since "Jewish" is an ethnicity (confirmed by you) the parallels are:

...an Irish homeland.
...a Cherokee homeland
...a Catalan homeland
...a Kurdish homeland
...an Indian homeland
...a Jordanian homeland

as in: Would it and could it be truly equal in a nation that has defined itself as a (insert from list above) homeland? Example: Would it and could it be truly equal in a nation that has defined itself as an Irish homeland.

The STANDARD is, obviously, yes.

Name one religious state with true equality.

 

[mudwhistle]

New Muslim congresswomen favor eliminating Israel

I am so happy they stated that is the long term Goal. For that reason alone Israel will never give up any more territory or allow " Right of Return"

Just because she said it doesn't mean she means it.
We can trust her. Mkay?

 

[Shusha]

Is Israel a secular state?

Is there a global requirement (STANDARD) for States to be secular?

Again, the very fact that you question this is problematic.

 

[Shusha]

The impression I get on forced transfers is based on what you said here:
New poll shows strong anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews

Yeah. Thanks. There is nothing in that posts which suggests that I support forced transfers. In fact, I explicitly said "not acceptable."

More proof that you are misrepresenting me.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Who decides who is Jewish?

The STANDARD, worldwide is: 1. Self-identification. 2. Acceptance within the group.

The very fact that you (as an outsider) are questioning this is problematic.

I always thought it was through lineage, myself, specifically the Mother's.

Am I wrong in that?

Saying it is just a choice people make plays into the hands of antisemites who make similar claims in order to delegitimize Jewish ethnicity. Many such have made claims in this forum that Jews are just European interlopers, and as such, have no claim to the land.

 

[Shusha]

the two state solution is becoming increasingly untenable and if a two state solution involves less than full autonomy...

The two state solution is untenable because the Arab Palestinians refuse the concept and have demonstrated (so far) that they are incapable of producing the necessary will and action to produce a state with full autonomy. Its perfectly achievable, should they bend their will toward it, instead of to the destruction of Israel. But they consistently refuse to.

 

[rylah]

Who decides who is Jewish?

The STANDARD, worldwide is: 1. Self-identification. 2. Acceptance within the group.

The very fact that you (as an outsider) are questioning this is problematic.

I always thought it was through lineage, myself, specifically the Mother's.

Am I wrong in that?

Saying it is just a choice people make plays into the hands of antisemites who make similar claims in order to delegitimize Jewish ethnicity. Many such have made claims in this forum that Jews are just European interlopers, and as such, have no claim to the land.

Mother defines Your belonging to Israel, father the tribe.

 

[Coyote]

Who decides who is Jewish?

The STANDARD, worldwide is: 1. Self-identification. 2. Acceptance within the group.

The very fact that you (as an outsider) are questioning this is problematic.

Why?

I am talking about it in relation to Israel. Who is a Jew? Why do they recognize some conversions and not others? Self identification and acceptance within a group exist in one nation but not another? I agree with your standard, but it is not consistent.

And that is another difference in making comparisons to other groups like the Irish. Or Native Americans. You don’t dont convert. You are by birth. I agree that being Jewish is an ethnicity. The fact that there are secular Jews is obvious. But it is also a religion, and that is part of Israel’s charter and governance.

So I think it is valid to ask the questions I ask.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Who decides who is Jewish?

The STANDARD, worldwide is: 1. Self-identification. 2. Acceptance within the group.

The very fact that you (as an outsider) are questioning this is problematic.

I always thought it was through lineage, myself, specifically the Mother's.

Am I wrong in that?

Saying it is just a choice people make plays into the hands of antisemites who make similar claims in order to delegitimize Jewish ethnicity. Many such have made claims in this forum that Jews are just European interlopers, and as such, have no claim to the land.

Mother defines Your belonging to Israel, father the tribe.

Thanks. I'm not Jewish, myself, simply fair minded. I still think it should be emphasized that Jewishness is more a matter of ethnicity than religion.


The three Abrahamic religions have been very different in approach:

Judaism : "So you want to become Jewish? I suppose so, but we'll make you work your ass off to learn what being Jewish is all about before you earn being called one"

Christianity: "Have you heard the good word? Please join us and tell all your friends!"

Islam "Convert or die!!"


The populations of the three reflect the approach. Judaism had a 1500 year head start on Christianity and Christianity a 700 year head start on Islam, yet Jewish population today is by FAR the lowest and Islam is fast overtaking Christianity if it hasn't already passed it.

 

[Coyote]

Is Israel a secular state?

Is there a global requirement (STANDARD) for States to be secular?

Again, the very fact that you question this is problematic.

Did I say there was? No. There is no such standard. But the more religious a state is the less tolerance there is for other religions and the harder it is to maintain democratic ideals.

 

[rylah]

Lot's of Christian states mostly free, lot's of Muslim states mostly tyrannical and backwards,
Israel is merely on the same level of democracy index as non-religious USA, and by far one of the most developed and diverse.

State religion - Wikipedia

 

[Coyote]

The impression I get on forced transfers is based on what you said here:
New poll shows strong anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews

Yeah. Thanks. There is nothing in that posts which suggests that I support forced transfers. In fact, I explicitly said "not acceptable."

More proof that you are misrepresenting me.

If I was trying to misrepresent you I would not supply the post. To me it seemed as if you were making the case for it in that thread.

 

[Shusha]

Name one religious state with true equality.

Nice dodge.

Again, the STANDARD, globally, is to build national movements around ethnic or cultural groups. The very fact that you question this by conflating Jewish ethnicity and national liberation with religion is problematic.

And, to answer your question: ISRAEL

 

[Coyote]

Lot's of Christian states mostly free, lot's of Muslim states mostly tyrannical and backwards,
Israel is merely on the same level of democracy index as non-religious USA, and by far one of the most developed and diverse.

State religion - Wikipedia

A lot of states have a “state religion” but secular governments. Most Western Christian states fall in that category.

 

[Shusha]

Who decides who is Jewish?

The STANDARD, worldwide is: 1. Self-identification. 2. Acceptance within the group.

The very fact that you (as an outsider) are questioning this is problematic.

I always thought it was through lineage, myself, specifically the Mother's.

Am I wrong in that?

Saying it is just a choice people make plays into the hands of antisemites who make similar claims in order to delegitimize Jewish ethnicity. Many such have made claims in this forum that Jews are just European interlopers, and as such, have no claim to the land.

.

The STANDARD, worldwide, is self-identification and acceptance. Its a personal process and a group process and not subject to the opinions of others.

The Jewish process of self-identification and acceptances tends towards maternal lineage, but not exclusively so. Methods of inclusion in a group is solely up to the group in question to determine -- any method of inclusion is acceptable (maternal lineage, paternal lineage, marriage, adoption, etc), but only the group gets to determine what their inclusion methods are.

 

[USAF 2023]

Who decides who is Jewish?

The STANDARD, worldwide is: 1. Self-identification. 2. Acceptance within the group.

The very fact that you (as an outsider) are questioning this is problematic.

I always thought it was through lineage, myself, specifically the Mother's.

Am I wrong in that?

Saying it is just a choice people make plays into the hands of antisemites who make similar claims in order to delegitimize Jewish ethnicity. Many such have made claims in this forum that Jews are just European interlopers, and as such, have no claim to the land.

.

The STANDARD, worldwide, is self-identification and acceptance. Its a personal process and a group process and not subject to the opinions of others.

The Jewish process of self-identification and acceptances tends towards maternal lineage, but not exclusively so. Methods of inclusion in a group is solely up to the group in question to determine -- any method of inclusion is acceptable (maternal lineage, paternal lineage, marriage, adoption, etc), but only the group gets to determine what their inclusion methods are.

Since she’s promoting “ tolerance “ ask why the PLO Policy is No Israelis Allowed. Ask about religious “ tolerance” in the Arab/Muslim World especially towards the Jewish people. There will be no response

 

[Shusha]

Did I say there was? No. There is no such standard.

And this is EXACTLY my continued point. There is a global standard. And you keep bringing up points which confuse or conflate or complicate that standard.

There is no STANDARD for an ethnic or cultural national liberation movement to be secular or non-religious. So why do you bring up religion at ALL, when Israel is an ethnic movement? Except to confuse and conflate and complicate?

 

[USAF 2023]

New Muslim congresswomen favor eliminating Israel

I am so happy they stated that is the long term Goal. For that reason alone Israel will never give up any more territory or allow " Right of Return"

Just because she said it doesn't mean she means it.
We can trust her. Mkay?

You mean she said it but didn’t mean it? Link please. You are stupid!

 

[Coyote]

Name one religious state with true equality.

Nice dodge.

Again, the STANDARD, globally, is to build national movements around ethnic or cultural groups. The very fact that you question this by conflating Jewish ethnicity and national liberation with religion is problematic.

And, to answer your question: ISRAEL

I think it is problematic to divorce religion from it since it is a key source of conflict. You can’t simultaneously say discount religion then use it to stake biblical god given claims to the entire region as some try to do.

I think once Israel resolves the Palestinian situation it can be called Democratic. Until then it controls a substantial population with very limited rights.