New poll shows strong anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews

[Mindful]

This sums it up. From Forbes:

"The simple solution for peace in the Middle East may be for Israel to change its name to Norway. Israel's diplomats discovered this trick in 1952, when an Israeli initiative at the U.N. for a cease-fire in Korea--put forward by representative Abba Eban--encountered serious opposition, only to pass easily once Norway replaced Israel as the sponsor. (These experiences led Eban to later quip: "If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.")"


Underlying every discussion about Israel is the inherent bias against it, which ever way one tries to spin it.

 

[Shusha]

What have I said that is antisemitic?

The OP seeks to compare the rampant, virulent, unreasonable, unsupportable hatred of Jews simply for being Jews in a place without conflict to simple discrimination of other which also happens to take place in the context of an on-going violent conflict. It seeks to minimize the experience of the Jewish people as being nothing more than regular run-of-the-mill "othering" such as is experienced by all people, all over the world.

You claim the trope which says that "Jews can do no wrong." And you claimed the trope that calling out anti-semitism is specifically to "shut down criticism of Israel". Those are all anti-semitic canards.

 

[Indeependent]

Very interesting article, the poll was done to parallel another poll done on anti-semitism in Europe. Interestingly, but not unsurprising (as it is similar in many societies) the more secular, the more tolerant.

New poll shows strong anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews

Channel 10 said they commission the poll from the IDI to “examine how racism, which underpins anti-Semitism, is being expressed by the Jewish Israeli public.

Th TV station said it recycled some of the questions asked in the CNN poll to uncover the Jewish attitudes of living with “the other.”

Channel 10 noted that one of the main topics in the CNN survey concerned the Holocaust, saying that it’s generally assumed that studying the genocide of European Jewry makes a person aware of consequences of racism and are less likely to be anti-Semitism. So in its poll, the TV station said it wanted to learn “what do the Jews, who demand world remember the Holocaust, know about the annihilation of other peoples?”

The results showed that an overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews — between 70-80% — said they knew “very little” or “nothing at all” about the Armenian, Cambodian or Rwandan genocides.

My 1st reaction to this Jerusalem Post poll was "they should know better than to present statistics that don't explain the significance". My 2nd reaction was -- "well their audience is LARGELY Israeli who KNOW the context of those numbers"..

On my "favorites" book shelf behind me is small paperback that was assigned to me in a Statistics class. It's called "How to LIE with Statistics". Only book I've ever read cover to cover three times. Because it outlines how you can paint a rembrandt or a warhol from the same painting pallet of raw numbers.

Here's the problem...

See the 2 darkest slices of Jews in Israel by "orthodoxy"?? That 22% is your "ultra orthodox". The 78% is the REST of Israeli Jewish population. Keep in mind that 13% of the CITIZENS of Israel are Muslim. And about 8% (IIRC) are various Christian denominations. So those 2 NON-JEWISH factions are ALMOST as large as the "ultra-orthodox" Jewish faction. Furthermore, 33% of ALL the ultra orthodox live in Jerusalem, where the Post is based.

So grouping the results in this poll by orthodoxy are NOT percentage of Israelis who harbor ANY bias towards Arabs. To get to THAT conclusion, you'd have to "normalize" the results as given to the SIZE of those religious denominations in Israel..

For instance, from your article --

“Most Jews are better than most non-Jews because they were born Jews.”

Among the 52% who said the statement was “totally true” or “pretty true,” 66% identified as ultra-Orthodox, 45% identified as religious Zionists and 13% as identified as traditionally observant. In stark contrast, only 7.1% of Israelis who identified as secular said they supported the statement.

This is a very confusing and scientifically sloppy statement. Because the percentages given add to 131%. So there's something "not kosher" with that statement. Largely it's because it's not a strict classification by RELIGIOUS affiliation. They mixed religious affiliation with "Zionist zeal". And there are plenty of "near secular Jews" with Zionist tendencies.

But even after tossing out the class that doesn't match the others (Zionism) -- That 66% of ultra orthodox being only 20% (or so) of the Israeli population represents only 13% of all Israeli Jews. That's a different story entirely -- aint it?

That's not even about Arab bias actually. It's just a statement about the cultural comparisons of the better life that exists in a relatively free and tolerant Israel -- versus the general Arab state of affairs in the Mid East. Israel is a place where you can have a Gay parade and not be mowed down in the streets. Or HAVE "the other" represented in your Congress.


Then there's a bunch of "weak" statements that appear to be racist indictments.

Seventy-four percent of respondents said they get at least a little disturbed by hearing conversation in Arabic in public.

Another 88% of respondents said they would be disturbed to some degree if their son were to befriend an Arab girl. The number climbed to 90% when respondents were asked about their daughter befriending an Arab boy.

"a little disturbed"??? "disturbed to some degree"?? These are not foaming at the mouth hatred of any one. And you would get HIGHER numbers in Paris from Parisians who hear folks not speaking French. And they would be GREATLY disturbed. Or in America those numbers about "befriending an Arab" would probably be similar --- wouldn't they?

That's because polls are only as good as the questions they ask. And the RESULTS are generally culled to "write a predefined story"... For instance -- that question about your kid "befriending an Arab" COULD HAVE BEEN asked by asking ---

If you're son was to befriend an Arab girl -- would you be ____ ???

1) Not disturbed at all
2) A little disturbed
3) Moderately disturbed
4) Greatly disturbed.

Right from the book on "how to lie with statistics" -- this is an example of only presenting a highly biased "cut-off" point for the analysis. By just excluding the folks on the measurement scale who are "not disturbed at all", you've biased the analysis. It doesn't really measure much at all. Does it? It bundles everyone with even a TWINGE of bias with folks who have serious Arab bias issues.

Using those 4 answer choices I gave, and making the cut-off point at "Moderately Disturbed or greater" -- would have represented a MUCH BETTER and mathematically sound measure of Israeli bias against Arabs. MAYBE they polled BOTH ways. And when they did not get the story they wanted. They backed off to asking ONLY if they would be " a little disturbed" or MORE. I'm a little disturbed when my daughter dates a raging snowflake. No Actually -- I'm "greatly disturbed"..

Sorry for the lecture. But the public is preyed on constantly with statistics and polls. And it angers me when the analysis they WRITE is not true to the data or maliciously manipulated. THINK when they toss the basket of numbers at you. Just don't resort to conclusions without at least asking some questions of how the "results" are presented.

And ESPECIALLY -- question the questions. Because the way they are phrased are OFTEN USED to ACHIEVE some preconceived notion for a story line.

Thanks for the breakdown and analysis, that is helpful, certainly more so than aything else that was contributed! I do think though, based not on just this but on other polls and articles from Israeli sources, not Palestinian, that Israel has problems with anti-Arab discrimination and bigotry and it seems taboo to talk about without ending up under a shit pile of antisemite accusations on rhe one the one hand and gleeful trolling from the resident antisemites on the other.

Is Israel a better place place to live than surrouding countries? Absolutely. So is the US, but that doesnt mean we dont have signicant problens with equality, justice, and bigotry to address. And we do...vociferously...we dont shut it down. We talk about the antisemitisme that is endemic among Muslims but talking about discrimination and bigotry from Israel's Jewish population is taboo. We all humans first and foremost and a suspect attitude Otherness is hardwired in our species and especially conservative cultures which covers many muslim cultures and the more conservative Jewish and Christian sects.

Israel does have a problem with inequality and discrimmination. But we are not allowed to talk about it.

Of course you are:

1.8 million Israelis, 842,000 of them children, under poverty line — report

Out of 9 million or less, what does Israel do with the 3.8 billion we give them a year? How about all the rich Jews in the US that send money to Israel and fund this or that? Take the 2 million in Gaza and most of them must go hungry. What does Israel do with the money??

A painful reality...
After the 2008 crash, even the most self-hating Jews sent almost all of their charity to Israel.
US charities, including many Christian charities, were crushed or closed down.
Be careful what you wish for.

 

[Indeependent]

And we do...vociferously...we dont shut it down.

You have MAJOR Israeli media taking the "reconciliation" side with Arabs. Are you not aware of this? Ha'aetz. Tikkun, and to some extent the J - Post and several Israeli television channels present "fair and balanced" discussion of Arab-Jew tensions daily. And for the most part do a better job it than we do here in America.

You have 11 to 13% Arab citizenship with adequate representation in the Knesset for balanced discussion in that high govt body. And the 20% of the "ultra-orthodox" that this poll maligns is also the breeding ground for that TINY sect of "Naturei Karta" Jews that don't even RECOGNIZE the Jewish state on religious grounds in Israel or the rest of the world.

Ain't "shut down" in Israel to any great degree. Freedom and liberty of opinion and speech is more alive in Israel than it is in America..

Ha'aretz, particularly.

Probably the most self-hating Jew publication in the know universe.

 

[flacaltenn]

Oh right...we can talk abiut as long as it doesnt involve specific demographic groups.

The ONLY thing your poll showed is "minor irritation". It did not truly demonstrate a RAMPANT, undiscussed, underlying hate of Arabs. And if you compare this poll to MORE SPECIFIC polls done by Pew and others of Arab opinion in Arab lands -- the whole issue of DEGREE of bias lands in the lap of Middle East Arabs.

It's a just a fact that has to be dealt with..

Now things are really getting out of hand here.

"Minor irritation" is not what that poll showed. No one I've seen, certainly not Coyote, indicated it was about "RAMPANT" hatred.

The alleged, "MORE SPECIFIC" polls of Arab opinion - demonstrating "the whole issue of DEGREE of bias lands in the lap of Middle East Arabs" - are not pertinent to the thread, if they exist at all.

From my previous post at --- New poll shows strong anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews


""""
Then there's a bunch of "weak" statements that appear to be racist indictments.

Seventy-four percent of respondents said they get at least a little disturbed by hearing conversation in Arabic in public.

Another 88% of respondents said they would be disturbed to some degree if their son were to befriend an Arab girl. The number climbed to 90% when respondents were asked about their daughter befriending an Arab boy.

"a little disturbed"??? "disturbed to some degree"?? These are not foaming at the mouth hatred of any one. And you would get HIGHER numbers in Paris from Parisians who hear folks not speaking French. And they would be GREATLY disturbed. Or in America those numbers about "befriending an Arab" would probably be similar --- wouldn't they?

'''''''

 

[Shusha]

Turns out -- folks who LIVE THE STRUGGLE of bias, racism in their daily lives have a much CLEARER and well discussed viewpoint of these problems ...

Yes. If a marginalized community calls you out, rather than assuming some nefarious dealing on their part, you might want to step back, take a deep breath and hear them.

 

[Shusha]

Dont you think thst sometimes that viewpoint might also distort how you view things?

No.

Again, you are trying to make equivalence where there is none. (For example, I don't HAVE a replacement theology).

 

[Olde Europe]

Minor irritation was the selected RANGE for some of the numbers. I showed that in my first thread. Go back and read it.

As to "arab opinion" -- it's already part of the scope of discussing bias of any kind. Was broached by the OP. More on topic than discussing moderators or moderation at least.

With all due respect, Flac, you demonstrated nothing in your first post, since you cannot demonstrate any biased questioning or evaluation of data you haven't seen, nor analyzed. Moreover, your grasp of statistics is severely lacking. (Re-)Coding an answer to a question in such a way that the whole spectrum of the irritation is summed up doesn't preclude analyzing the levels of irritation separately, even in case that wasn't detailed in a newspaper article.

As to the latter, that's just another meme of the sort, "Jews / Israelis may have some flaws / flawed members within their ranks, but they are excused because everyone else, and Arabs in particular, are worse." In conjunction with belittling the "irritation" as minimal, that's exhibiting exactly the kind of bias the OP poll demonstrates is existing, and mostly in the more religious types.

I haven't "discussed" a moderator, rather in this case a participating member, and only because you seem to have accused her of ascribing rampant hatred to Israelis. That's now verboten?

 

[Shusha]

Seventy-four percent of respondents said they get at least a little disturbed by hearing conversation in Arabic in public.

"a little disturbed"??? "disturbed to some degree"?? These are not foaming at the mouth hatred of any one. And you would get HIGHER numbers in Paris from Parisians who hear folks not speaking French. And they would be GREATLY disturbed. Or in America those numbers about "befriending an Arab" would probably be similar --- wouldn't they?

'''''''

The more specific poll asked the follow up question: "What do you feel when you hear conversation in Arabic in public?" and the responses were largely some take on "fear". In the context of the conflict, specifically in the context of the intifadas in Israel, that fear response makes sense. Is it discriminatory? Sure.

But its also really, really hard not to think about the little baby boy struggling to survive today within that context. And Jews all over the world had public menorah lightings this past week for Hanukkah. Every Jew and every community had to think about having the courage to be publicly Jewish.

 

[Olde Europe]

These are not foaming at the mouth hatred of any one. And you would get HIGHER numbers in Paris from Parisians who hear folks not speaking French. And they would be GREATLY disturbed. Or in America those numbers about "befriending an Arab" would probably be similar --- wouldn't they?

What the....?

Did anyone this side of insanity claim the poll demonstrated "foaming at the mouth hatred" in Isralis?

Did anyone this side of insanity claim Israelis are worse than the French?

Did anyone this side of insanity claim Israelis are worse than the Americans? Or anyone else?

If not, why bring this up? What is it with this better than / worse than finger-pointing over national or ethnic boundaries? Is that supposed to make anyone feel better about themselves? We all have the good, the bad, and the ugly in our midst, and about evenly distributed, no matter where we reside, and whatever we can point out in others, does not change on whit about what we ourselves are. I, for one, cannot even begin to understand why that need arises, at least outside kindergarten.

 

[BlackFlag]

Very interesting article, the poll was done to parallel another poll done on anti-semitism in Europe. Interestingly, but not unsurprising (as it is similar in many societies) the more secular, the more tolerant.

New poll shows strong anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews

Channel 10 said they commission the poll from the IDI to “examine how racism, which underpins anti-Semitism, is being expressed by the Jewish Israeli public.

Th TV station said it recycled some of the questions asked in the CNN poll to uncover the Jewish attitudes of living with “the other.”

Channel 10 noted that one of the main topics in the CNN survey concerned the Holocaust, saying that it’s generally assumed that studying the genocide of European Jewry makes a person aware of consequences of racism and are less likely to be anti-Semitism. So in its poll, the TV station said it wanted to learn “what do the Jews, who demand world remember the Holocaust, know about the annihilation of other peoples?”

The results showed that an overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews — between 70-80% — said they knew “very little” or “nothing at all” about the Armenian, Cambodian or Rwandan genocides.

I thought that was pretty much known and accepted? Remember Bibi warning that Arabs were daring to vote.

That's highly inaccurate. Bibi didn't "warn" anybody. He called for his own voters to come to put their voice in because the left was rising in polls, that's all.

As much as I dislike the guy, I dislike disinformation even more.

“Arab voters are going en masse to the polls. Left-wing NGOs are bringing them on buses” - Bibi

Imagine if Trump had yelled “n*ggers are bieng bussed into polls by the left!” Actually, in the current America that might’ve worked for him.

 

[Coyote]

What have I said that is antisemitic?

The OP seeks to compare the rampant, virulent, unreasonable, unsupportable hatred of Jews simply for being Jews in a place without conflict to simple discrimination of other which also happens to take place in the context of an on-going violent conflict. It seeks to minimize the experience of the Jewish people as being nothing more than regular run-of-the-mill "othering" such as is experienced by all people, all over the world.

You claim the trope which says that "Jews can do no wrong." And you claimed the trope that calling out anti-semitism is specifically to "shut down criticism of Israel". Those are all anti-semitic canards.

Except that they are not antisemitic canards. They occur all the time in these discussions and they effectively shut down discussion from one of issues to one of name calling.

What is antisemitic about calling out discrimination, bias, or injustice in a culture? Why is it acceptable to discuss that when it comes to race issues in America (I have been on a lot of those diacussions too) but becomes antisemitism when directed at Israel? That is not a canard. It is a reality in these conversations.

Can you find any threads or posts from Team Israel criticizing anything Israel does? If you can't, then the impression Israel can do no wrong in the eyes of it's supporters is hardly a canard is it?

 

[Coyote]

These are not foaming at the mouth hatred of any one. And you would get HIGHER numbers in Paris from Parisians who hear folks not speaking French. And they would be GREATLY disturbed. Or in America those numbers about "befriending an Arab" would probably be similar --- wouldn't they?

What the....?

Did anyone this side of insanity claim the poll demonstrated "foaming at the mouth hatred" in Isralis?

Did anyone this side of insanity claim Israelis are worse than the French?

Did anyone this side of insanity claim Israelis are worse than the Americans? Or anyone else?

If not, why bring this up? What is it with this better than / worse than finger-pointing over national or ethnic boundaries? Is that supposed to make anyone feel better about themselves? We all have the good, the bad, and the ugly in our midst, and about evenly distributed, no matter where we reside, and whatever we can point out in others, does not change on whit about what we ourselves are. I, for one, cannot even begin to understand why that need arises, at least outside kindergarten.

I think that is the point...

 

[Coyote]

Turns out -- folks who LIVE THE STRUGGLE of bias, racism in their daily lives have a much CLEARER and well discussed viewpoint of these problems ...

Yes. If a marginalized community calls you out, rather than assuming some nefarious dealing on their part, you might want to step back, take a deep breath and hear them.

What if that marginalized community is Arab citizens of Israel? Do they have a voice to be listened to?

Is that antisemitic?

 

[Mindful]

I certainly criticise Israel for giving back the Sinai.

 

[Shusha]

What if that marginalized community is Arab citizens of Israel? Do they have a voice to be listened to?

Yes! Absolutely! But then let's talk about the marginalized Arab community in Israel in proper context and let's NOT talk about how Jews are racist on par with European anti-semitism and the Shoah.

Is that antisemitic?

The former is not. The latter is.

 

[Lipush]

Very interesting article, the poll was done to parallel another poll done on anti-semitism in Europe. Interestingly, but not unsurprising (as it is similar in many societies) the more secular, the more tolerant.

New poll shows strong anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews

Channel 10 said they commission the poll from the IDI to “examine how racism, which underpins anti-Semitism, is being expressed by the Jewish Israeli public.

Th TV station said it recycled some of the questions asked in the CNN poll to uncover the Jewish attitudes of living with “the other.”

Channel 10 noted that one of the main topics in the CNN survey concerned the Holocaust, saying that it’s generally assumed that studying the genocide of European Jewry makes a person aware of consequences of racism and are less likely to be anti-Semitism. So in its poll, the TV station said it wanted to learn “what do the Jews, who demand world remember the Holocaust, know about the annihilation of other peoples?”

The results showed that an overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews — between 70-80% — said they knew “very little” or “nothing at all” about the Armenian, Cambodian or Rwandan genocides.

I thought that was pretty much known and accepted? Remember Bibi warning that Arabs were daring to vote.

That's highly inaccurate. Bibi didn't "warn" anybody. He called for his own voters to come to put their voice in because the left was rising in polls, that's all.

As much as I dislike the guy, I dislike disinformation even more.

“Arab voters are going en masse to the polls. Left-wing NGOs are bringing them on buses” - Bibi

Imagine if Trump had yelled “n*ggers are bieng bussed into polls by the left!” Actually, in the current America that might’ve worked for him.

It was poor terminology, but that is all it was. Iv'e heard and saw worse.

 

[Crepitus]

Very interesting article, the poll was done to parallel another poll done on anti-semitism in Europe. Interestingly, but not unsurprising (as it is similar in many societies) the more secular, the more tolerant.

New poll shows strong anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews

Channel 10 said they commission the poll from the IDI to “examine how racism, which underpins anti-Semitism, is being expressed by the Jewish Israeli public.

Th TV station said it recycled some of the questions asked in the CNN poll to uncover the Jewish attitudes of living with “the other.”

Channel 10 noted that one of the main topics in the CNN survey concerned the Holocaust, saying that it’s generally assumed that studying the genocide of European Jewry makes a person aware of consequences of racism and are less likely to be anti-Semitism. So in its poll, the TV station said it wanted to learn “what do the Jews, who demand world remember the Holocaust, know about the annihilation of other peoples?”

The results showed that an overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews — between 70-80% — said they knew “very little” or “nothing at all” about the Armenian, Cambodian or Rwandan genocides.

I don't understand why this is a surprise to anyone. If you've been to Israel and spoken to some of the people there you knew this.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

What if that marginalized community is Arab citizens of Israel? Do they have a voice to be listened to?

Yes! Absolutely! But then let's talk about the marginalized Arab community in Israel in proper context and let's NOT talk about how Jews are racist on par with European anti-semitism and the Shoah.

Is that antisemitic?

The former is not. The latter is.

I go by Natan Sharansky's three D process, myself -- demonization, double standards and delegitimization.

By studying the many thousands of postings that make up the body of work, the answers come back yes, yes and yes.

 

[Shusha]

Except that they are not antisemitic canards. They occur all the time in these discussions and they effectively shut down discussion from one of issues to one of name calling.

"Jews can do no wrong" and "Jews won't permit criticism of Israel" ARE anti-semitic canards. Modern variations on Jewish superiority/choseness. Comparing Jews to those who unreasonably hate them and to those who accomplished the Shoah is also an anti-semitic canard.

And these call-outs should not shut down the discussion. On the contrary the INTENT of me bringing it up is to discuss the anti-semitism that is so prevalent in these discussions and which underlies the entire conflict. (Like we are doing right now). IF it shuts down the conversation it is because most people are perfectly comfortable in their anti-semitism and do not want to examine it.

If you want to discuss actual issues, why didn't you start a thread on actual issues? There are PLENTY to discuss. Instead you started a thread about a poll which was deliberately invented to draw a parallel between Jewish "racism" and European anti-semitism and the Shoah in order to make Jews look bad. Or to normalize anti-semitism.

Can you find any threads or posts from Team Israel criticizing anything Israel does? If you can't, then the impression Israel can do no wrong in the eyes of it's supporters is hardly a canard is it?

I have certainly seen posts which reasonably criticize Israel's policies from Team Israel. I also have seen posts which explain why they don't criticize Israel for something Team Palestine thinks they should criticize Israel for. I have also spent more than a dozen years on a board where the level of conversation was much higher and where there was significant criticism of specific policies, so I am aware that Team Israel is perfectly capable of it. But again, as I said, we spend so much time here explaining that Jews right to life is actually protected in international law we don't have much time leftover for real discussions. But just for fun, I'll start a thread.