New paper finds Arctic was up to 12.6°C warmer than today

[Foxfyre]

Take a look at the past! I'll be dead and gone before this shit happens, unless it's a miracle. It doesn't bother me if people think what will happen is beyond their lifetime. I don't think it is.

I have taken a good long hard look at the past and that is exactly why I find warmists to be absolutely rediculous. You carry on as if a few degrees of temperature increase is going to destroy life on earth when for most of earth's history, it has been considerably more than a few degrees warmer than the present.

Take a look at this very simple temperature history of the earth and then tell me exactly why you fear warming that warming is going to destroy life on earth and more importantly in the grand cycle of things, how in the hell you believe we can, in any way, interfere with the cycles of the earth?

Remember that responsibity lesson conservatives like to preach! I am a responsible person and I don't hurt the innocent people or animals of Earth. I'm a kind person.

But you do heart the innocent people of the earth. More bodies can heaped up at the alter of liberal and enviornmentalist thinking than from all the wars humanity has ever experienced.

You and yours leave a wake of carnage behind you and somehow remain completely oblivious to it...or perhaps you just don't care and view the wake of death behind you as simply collataral damage, unimportant ...simply a means to an end.

I don't think liberals believe they are doing harm or are wrong any more than conservatives do though. Except for the self serving policies to enrich or increase power for certain persons or groups, and both sides can fall prey to that temptation, I think most Americans mean well in their personal philosophies.

But in the area of AGW, I do wish that there was less tunnel vision and more willingness to embrace the bigger picture. For instance, those of us who enjoy the luxuries and blessings of living in developed nations got here by exploiting the earth's resources and utilizing them to good advantage.

If AGW becomes so strong a religion and political component that undeveloped nations are denied the same ability, we could doom the poorest people of the world to many more generations of crushing poverty. How cruel would that be if AGW is more fiction than fact re the harm it might do?

And why are so many persuaded to give up their liberties, choices, options, opportunities to accommodate what very well may be flawed science?

 

[SSDD]

I don't think liberals believe they are doing harm or are wrong any more than conservatives do though. Except for the self serving policies to enrich or increase power for certain persons or groups, and both sides can fall prey to that temptation, I think most Americans mean well in their personal philosophies.

I don't think that they (liberals) believe that they are doing harm either. That's what makes it all the sadder. They cause endless misery, suffering, and death with the best of intentions.

But in the area of AGW, I do wish that there was less tunnel vision and more willingness to embrace the bigger picture. For instance, those of us who enjoy the luxuries and blessings of living in developed nations got here by exploiting the earth's resources and utilizing them to good advantage.

Yes. And they are perfectly willing to condemn the third world to poverty, sickness, unsanitary conditions, and a brutishly short lifespan in the name of saving the earth while living in the relative luxury that even the poor here enjoy.

If AGW becomes so strong a religion and political component that undeveloped nations are denied the same ability, we could doom the poorest people of the world to many more generations of crushing poverty. How cruel would that be if AGW is more fiction than fact re the harm it might do?

Undeveloped nations have been being denied access to the very things that make our lifestyle possible for decades before the invention of the AGW hoax. How many tens of millions have died as the direct result of a ban on DDT? How many tens of millions have died as a direct result of the denial of hydroelectric dams and the benefit we derive from that electric outlet?

And why are so many persuaded to give up their liberties, choices, options, opportunities to accommodate what very well may be flawed science?

Fear of freedom and all that entails.

 

[daveman]

Take a look at the past! I'll be dead and gone before this shit happens, unless it's a miracle. It doesn't bother me if people think what will happen is beyond their lifetime. I don't think it is.

Remember that responsibity lesson conservatives like to preach! I am a responsible person and I don't hurt the innocent people or animals of Earth. I'm a kind person.

Then why do you vote Democrat and saddle your descendants with unsustainable debt?

 

[Old Rocks]

Take a look at the past! I'll be dead and gone before this shit happens, unless it's a miracle. It doesn't bother me if people think what will happen is beyond their lifetime. I don't think it is.

Remember that responsibity lesson conservatives like to preach! I am a responsible person and I don't hurt the innocent people or animals of Earth. I'm a kind person.

Then why do you vote Democrat and saddle your descendants with unsustainable debt?

Well, Daveboy, you are full of shit as usual. Greatest increase by percentage of GDP was during Reagan and Bush 1's terms.

File:US Debt Trend.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[daveman]

Take a look at the past! I'll be dead and gone before this shit happens, unless it's a miracle. It doesn't bother me if people think what will happen is beyond their lifetime. I don't think it is.

Remember that responsibity lesson conservatives like to preach! I am a responsible person and I don't hurt the innocent people or animals of Earth. I'm a kind person.

Then why do you vote Democrat and saddle your descendants with unsustainable debt?

Well, Daveboy, you are full of shit as usual. Greatest increase by percentage of GDP was during Reagan and Bush 1's terms.

File:US Debt Trend.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yet Obama has doubled the debt, and wants to saddle us with more.

Oh, that's right, I forgot: Obama's debt is GOOD. GOP debt is BAD.

All hail Obama!

 

[Foxfyre]

Okay, focus gentlemen. There are plenty of threads to discuss budgets, deficits, debt, and who is most to blame.

If we are to discuss economics, lets keep it focused on the economics of global warming, how government is dealing with that, and how much we are willing to gamble in personal resources and choices to follow the AGW prescxription.

 

[bripat9643]

Take a look at the past! I'll be dead and gone before this shit happens, unless it's a miracle. It doesn't bother me if people think what will happen is beyond their lifetime. I don't think it is.

Remember that responsibity lesson conservatives like to preach! I am a responsible person and I don't hurt the innocent people or animals of Earth. I'm a kind person.

You mean you don't eat meat? You don't vote to raise your neighbor's taxes?

 

[westwall]

This paper just published in Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology represents a reconstruction of temperatures in the vicinity of Bylot Island in the Canadian arctic and finds that during the Pleistocene epoch, the average temperature in that part of the world during that time period was about 11.4 decrees C warmer than today's temperatures.

ScienceDirect.com - Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology - Annually resolved temperature reconstructions from a late Pliocene?early Pleistocene polar forest on Bylot Island, Canada



And before you cut and paste wonks start singing your chorus about how different the world was during that time, here is some material for you on the Pleistocene epoch from one of your trusted sources. It is easily understood (lots of pretty pictures) and should put your mind to rest and show you that the world wasn't so much different then than it is today.

BBC Nature - Pliocene epoch videos, news and facts

As you can see, the world then, was much like the world today except it wasn't cold. Contrary to the present claims being made by the chicken littles of the world, a small temperature change will not end life on earth as we know it. Life seems to have been thriving during that period before the ice age came and wrecked the good life for everyone.

It does make one wonder why you warmers are so terrified of getting out of the present ice age and back to a global temperature that is actually good for life on earth and more importantly what would ever give you the idea that we could possibly have anything to do with, or in any way delay the earth going back to its more normal state. For most of earth's history with the exception of a few ice ages, the earth has been a good deal warmer than the present and life has thrived during those warm periods.

They're not terrified of it getting warmer they are terrified that their gravy train will turn off when the public figures out that a one degree rise would actually be good for the planet. Hell a three degree rise would be outstanding!

Take a look at the past! I'll be dead and gone before this shit happens, unless it's a miracle. It doesn't bother me if people think what will happen is beyond their lifetime. I don't think it is.

Remember that responsibity lesson conservatives like to preach! I am a responsible person and I don't hurt the innocent people or animals of Earth. I'm a kind person.

Yes, history tells us that when it has been warm it has been nice. The Roman culture was founded when it was warmer than today. The Chinese have a very good record of over two thousand years of their history, and that history shows quite plainly that when it has been warm life for the Chinese has been good. When it was cold it wasn't.

 

[Foxfyre]

They're not terrified of it getting warmer they are terrified that their gravy train will turn off when the public figures out that a one degree rise would actually be good for the planet. Hell a three degree rise would be outstanding!

Take a look at the past! I'll be dead and gone before this shit happens, unless it's a miracle. It doesn't bother me if people think what will happen is beyond their lifetime. I don't think it is.

Remember that responsibity lesson conservatives like to preach! I am a responsible person and I don't hurt the innocent people or animals of Earth. I'm a kind person.

Yes, history tells us that when it has been warm it has been nice. The Roman culture was founded when it was warmer than today. The Chinese have a very good record of over two thousand years of their history, and that history shows quite plainly that when it has been warm life for the Chinese has been good. When it was cold it wasn't.

In fact, if you look deep into the more reasoned possibilities that have emerged, both Canada and Siberia would welcome a warmer climate, longer growing season, and if that happened, both have the land and soil to become primary bread baskets for the world.

 

[Dubya]

Take a look at the past! I'll be dead and gone before this shit happens, unless it's a miracle. It doesn't bother me if people think what will happen is beyond their lifetime. I don't think it is.

Remember that responsibity lesson conservatives like to preach! I am a responsible person and I don't hurt the innocent people or animals of Earth. I'm a kind person.

Yes, history tells us that when it has been warm it has been nice. The Roman culture was founded when it was warmer than today. The Chinese have a very good record of over two thousand years of their history, and that history shows quite plainly that when it has been warm life for the Chinese has been good. When it was cold it wasn't.

In fact, if you look deep into the more reasoned possibilities that have emerged, both Canada and Siberia would welcome a warmer climate, longer growing season, and if that happened, both have the land and soil to become primary bread baskets for the world.

What makes you think that wishful thinking is more reasoned? Many people in Greenland are delighted they can grow crops they couldn't grow before. Global warming sounds great for a cold climate, but what about the people who live in warm climates? What about the fact that coastal cities will be flooded by the ocean and someone is going to have to pay for the damage?

 

[SSDD]

What makes you think that wishful thinking is more reasoned? Many people in Greenland are delighted they can grow crops they couldn't grow before. Global warming sounds great for a cold climate, but what about the people who live in warm climates? What about the fact that coastal cities will be flooded by the ocean and someone is going to have to pay for the damage?

I guess you haven't heard that even your experts believe that if any sort of signifigant warming occurs, it will be mainly in the high latitudes...water vapor being a limiting factor in the lower latitudes.

And the people who pay for the damage should be the people who choose to live in an area subject to flooding....same as people who choose to live on fault lines, flood plains, and areas where fire is a natural part of the ecology.

At some point we are simply going to have to stop paying for other people's stupidity. Sea levels have risen about 600 feet since the turn out of the present ice age...there is no reason to believe that in the long cycle, eventually all of the ice will melt everywhere and we know what that will do to sea level....it has all happened before.

 

[Dubya]

And at that time, the isthmus of Panama had not completely closed. So there was a differant ocean circulation pattern.

Check again. From the link I provided:

The Pliocene world looked very similar to Earth today as North and South America had been drifting ever closer and the gap between them was sealed in this epoch.

The global average temperature was 2 to 3 degrees C warmer than today. The ocean circulation was vastly changed and the Atlantic Ocean cooled.

Cherry picking a sentence about an Epoch of time isn't studying it. The Pliocene is a very interesting story of many changes in a rather short period of time. Nearly all the tropical rainforests died off.

Is there some reason you can't learn what you talk about?

What makes you think we can avoid ice ages when our planet has it's present ocean circulation? The Gulf Stream not only takes heat to the north, it takes moisture. It doesn't have to get that cold to freeze ocean water.

What happens to your warm world if we shut down major ocean currents with too much fresh water too rapidly. Making Greenland melt quickly is not a smart idea, it's been there for around 3 million years.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

I'm not even going to listen to a FOOL.

Here is the best site I know:

Arctic Sea Ice

Is that best site you know because you've independently validated the accuracy of the information's sources or is it the best site you know because it tells you what you want to hear?

 

[SSDD]

The global average temperature was 2 to 3 degrees C warmer than today. The ocean circulation was vastly changed and the Atlantic Ocean cooled.

Read dubya....the arctic was at least 11 degrees warmer. That doesn't translate to 11 degrees all over the earth and the ocean circulation was practically identical. One only need look at the positions of the land masses at the time to see that.

 

[SSDD]

I'm not even going to listen to a FOOL.

Here is the best site I know:

Arctic Sea Ice

Is that best site you know because you've independently validated the accuracy of the information's sources or is it the best site you know because it tells you what you want to hear?

Its what he wants to hear. If Mother Goose or Grimms Faire Tales told the story he wants to hear, that is what he would be posting....and as wacky as he has gotten lately, it wouldn't surprise me if he does.

 

[Foxfyre]

Yes, history tells us that when it has been warm it has been nice. The Roman culture was founded when it was warmer than today. The Chinese have a very good record of over two thousand years of their history, and that history shows quite plainly that when it has been warm life for the Chinese has been good. When it was cold it wasn't.

In fact, if you look deep into the more reasoned possibilities that have emerged, both Canada and Siberia would welcome a warmer climate, longer growing season, and if that happened, both have the land and soil to become primary bread baskets for the world.

What makes you think that wishful thinking is more reasoned? Many people in Greenland are delighted they can grow crops they couldn't grow before. Global warming sounds great for a cold climate, but what about the people who live in warm climates? What about the fact that coastal cities will be flooded by the ocean and someone is going to have to pay for the damage?

As others have pointed out, a 10 degree rise in temperature in the Arctic does not translate to a 10 degree rise at the equator. If a major climate shift makes the northern regions more habitable, that does not translate into other areas becoming uninhabitable. Some of the hottest regions on Earth could benefit from a bit of cooling. But that has been going on since there has been an Earth.

But even if your image of flooded coastal cities is correct, then there will be a new coastline and people will move as people have done for the entire history of the human race when the place they are become uninhabitable. There has been life on Earth for billions of years and it all has had to adapt and adjust to changing climate patterns for all that time. How is it not rather arrogant of us humans to thnk we can stop those changing patterns?

It would probably make a whole lot more sense for us to put our scientific minds, efforts, and resources into helping people plan for and adapt to inevitable climate change rather than trying to make the climate into what we want it to be.

 

[Foxfyre]

I just stumbled across this Matt Ridley essay in the WSJ that provides some additional perspective and reinforces the concepts in the study cited in the OP. The whole article is a short but informative read, asks the right questions, gives us something new to think about, and describes how several species on Earth have adapted and accommodated previous small and large climate shifts:

Excerpt:

This week probably saw the Arctic Ocean's sea ice reach its minimum extent for the year and begin to expand again, as it usually does in mid-September. Given that the retreat of Arctic ice has become a key piece of evidence for those who take a more alarmed view of global warming, it's newsworthy that 2012's melt was the greatest since records began in 1979, with sea ice in the Northern Hemisphere shrinking to about 1.3 million square miles, or about half the 1979-2008 average.

As this column has sometimes pointed out ways in which the effects of global warming are happening more slowly than predicted, it is fair to record that this rate of decline in Arctic sea ice is faster than many predicted. Although an entirely ice-free Arctic Ocean during at least one week a year is still several decades away at this rate, we are halfway there after just three decades.

Foxfyre's comment: Of course we have only been able to study this for three decades.​

Arctic melts on this scale have happened before, however. Svend Funder of the Danish Museum of Natural History and his colleagues recently studied the northern coast of Greenland, where the land-fast sea ice never breaks up, even in a year like this. Yet evidence of wave action in the past (indicating open waters) and waterlogged driftwood show that for 2,500 years in the "Holocene Optimum" period, when Arctic summer temperatures were two to four degrees Celsius warmer than today, the summer melt of the Arctic Ocean routinely left half as much ice as this year

More here:
Matt Ridley on Global Warming and Sea Ice | Mind & Matter - WSJ.com

 

[westwall]

Yes, history tells us that when it has been warm it has been nice. The Roman culture was founded when it was warmer than today. The Chinese have a very good record of over two thousand years of their history, and that history shows quite plainly that when it has been warm life for the Chinese has been good. When it was cold it wasn't.

In fact, if you look deep into the more reasoned possibilities that have emerged, both Canada and Siberia would welcome a warmer climate, longer growing season, and if that happened, both have the land and soil to become primary bread baskets for the world.

What makes you think that wishful thinking is more reasoned? Many people in Greenland are delighted they can grow crops they couldn't grow before. Global warming sounds great for a cold climate, but what about the people who live in warm climates? What about the fact that coastal cities will be flooded by the ocean and someone is going to have to pay for the damage?

What, you mean they can grow crops like the Vikings did way back when? How many centuries ago was that? Careful........you're blaspheming against the high priests, their punishments are brutal to the converted..

 

[westwall]

The global average temperature was 2 to 3 degrees C warmer than today. The ocean circulation was vastly changed and the Atlantic Ocean cooled.

Read dubya....the arctic was at least 11 degrees warmer. That doesn't translate to 11 degrees all over the earth and the ocean circulation was practically identical. One only need look at the positions of the land masses at the time to see that.

dumbdumb is a SUPER DUPER Genius, he doesn't read anything...he just believes. Hmmmm, that sounds religious zeolot like doesn't it.

 

[Dubya]

I'm not even going to listen to a FOOL.

Here is the best site I know:

Arctic Sea Ice

Is that best site you know because you've independently validated the accuracy of the information's sources or is it the best site you know because it tells you what you want to hear?

They discuss the science there and not the politics and it tends to focus on arctic sea ice.

The blanket of snow that covers Arctic regions for most of the year has been shrinking at an increasing pace over the past decade, researchers say.

Source: Arctic Snow Cover Shows Steep Decline | Global Warming | LiveScience