Need to point fingers? Use the facts.

[Missourian]

I've read just about everything I could get my hands on written by Loughner and about Loughner by law enforcement, teachers and administrators.

.
.
.
.
I can tell you five things with absolute certainty.
.
.
.
.
.
Loughner is irrational.

Read the postings from Loughner linked in this thread, it's posts and videos from many sources, though it started with just the forum postings:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/law-a...and-threads-above-top-secret.html#post3209879
​

.
.
.
.
.
Loughner neither realized nor understood that he was irrational.

"Officer Mattocks spoke with LOUGHNER and at this point the loss of freedom of speech turned into freedom of thought and his right to write whatever he wanted to and get a good grade on his work. LOUGHNER was not understanding that his actions and causing a disruption in class had nothing to do with his to freedom of speech or freedom of thought. LOUGHNER was unable to process why the police were involved in the incident." (p.30)
​

.
.
.
.
.
Loughner's parents knew there was a mental concern involved.

"I began asking Jared another question and Jared stated he should not say any more. I asked why and Jerad state that his parents told him not to say more." (p.41)
​

.
.
.
.
.
The Campus Police identified that Loughner was suffering from a mental condition.

"The conversation was grading as Officer States and I considered the best possible options with Mr. Loughner's state of mind and reasoning. It was clear that he was unable to fully understand his actions and an Administrative approach was reasonable at this time." (p.32)
​

"Officer Mattocks and l met with Mr. Conover and conveyed to him that through our training and experience that there might be a mental health concern involved with LOUGHNER." (p.31)
​

.
.
.
.
.
Teachers and Administrators understood that Loughner might be a threat to others.

"According to Curry, she spoke with Loughner outside
the classroom, and felt like it might become physical. Loughner was then referred to Curry's supervisor,· Susan
Heinrich, who according to Curry also felt "intimidated." No contact has been made with Heinrich or Loughner at this
time.

Curry stated that her last semester class is scheduled for 1700 hours at CFA Recital Hall, and did not feel comfortable
teaching without an officer in the area." I infomed Curry that I would be near the CFA until her class ended.at 1800
hours; she acknowledged. I monitored the CFA complex until Curry's class ended at about 1755 hours, and then
cleared the call at about 1800 hours." (p.5)


"It was decided that LOUGHNER should not be allowed back into the classroom today due to the instructor and other students not feeling comfortable with LOUGHNER after the earlier disruption." (p.30)


"Officer Mattocks and l met with Mr. Conover [the Advanced Program Manager for Northwest Campus] and conveyed to him that through our training and experience that there might be a mental health concern involved with LOUGHNER. Mr. Conover stated that he had met with LOUGHNER on two previous occasions for disruptive behavior." (p.31)

"A writing instructor asked that I [ Mr. Conover] follow up with the student after he had made a "bizarre" comment in class. During the class student were talking about the poems they had written. One of the female students had a poem that in some way connected to abortion. With no context, Jared stated that we should have dynamite attached to babies. When I met with Jared his mother accompanied him. I asked Jared to help me understand his comment. He said that the class had been talking about abortion, which made him think of death, which made him think of suicide bombers, which made him think of babies as suicicde bombers." (p.42)

The excerpts above are taken from this PDF file of reports and statement released by Pima Community College:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/nytdocs/docs/556/556.pdf

​

 

[Old Rocks]

This fruitcake acted alone. He apparently was not influenced by anyone on either side of the political spectrum. Those are the facts.

Here are the perceptions. There are a great many on the right that have spoken in terms that are incendiary. First in suggesting that our government in this democracy is our enemy. Second, by stating that 2nd amendment solutions should be sought because a majority voted in someone they do not like. And third, by images and referances to crosshairs and guns. None of the people making these statements meant to actually carry them out. However, as we recoil in horror at the events in Tucson, we cannot but remember the rhetoric and images. This is the kind of horror that they were refering to, and it will be reflected in peoples attitudes towards those created the rhetoric and images.

 

[EriktheRed]

This fruitcake acted alone. He apparently was not influenced by anyone on either side of the political spectrum. Those are the facts.

And as folks like you and I acknowledge this, for some reason it seems like it just disappears into the mist.

Here are the perceptions. There are a great many on the right that have spoken in terms that are incendiary. First in suggesting that our government in this democracy is our enemy. Second, by stating that 2nd amendment solutions should be sought because a majority voted in someone they do not like. And third, by images and referances to crosshairs and guns. None of the people making these statements meant to actually carry them out. However, as we recoil in horror at the events in Tucson, we cannot but remember the rhetoric and images. This is the kind of horror that they were refering to, and it will be reflected in peoples attitudes towards those created the rhetoric and images.

And while prominent voices on the Right deny their words have had any effect, a bullet-riddled billboard for Rush Limbaugh's radio show gets taken down in Arizona.

 

[Missourian]

This fruitcake acted alone. He apparently was not influenced by anyone on either side of the political spectrum. Those are the facts.

Here are the perceptions. There are a great many on the right that have spoken in terms that are incendiary. First in suggesting that our government in this democracy is our enemy. Second, by stating that 2nd amendment solutions should be sought because a majority voted in someone they do not like. And third, by images and referances to crosshairs and guns. None of the people making these statements meant to actually carry them out. However, as we recoil in horror at the events in Tucson, we cannot but remember the rhetoric and images. This is the kind of horror that they were refering to, and it will be reflected in peoples attitudes towards those created the rhetoric and images.

The rhetoric that absolutely nothing to do with the shootings.

 

[Missourian]

This fruitcake acted alone. He apparently was not influenced by anyone on either side of the political spectrum. Those are the facts.

And as folks like you and I acknowledge this, for some reason it seems like it just disappears into the mist.

Here are the perceptions. There are a great many on the right that have spoken in terms that are incendiary. First in suggesting that our government in this democracy is our enemy. Second, by stating that 2nd amendment solutions should be sought because a majority voted in someone they do not like. And third, by images and referances to crosshairs and guns. None of the people making these statements meant to actually carry them out. However, as we recoil in horror at the events in Tucson, we cannot but remember the rhetoric and images. This is the kind of horror that they were refering to, and it will be reflected in peoples attitudes towards those created the rhetoric and images.

And while prominent voices on the Right deny their words have had any effect, a bullet-riddled billboard for Rush Limbaugh's radio show gets taken down in Arizona.

Loughner posts show not a single reference to anything said by the right.


90% of them are nearly incoherent.


If Rush Limbaugh's billboard is getting shot up, I seriously doubt it's anyone on the right doing the shooting.

 

[uscitizen]

I've read just about everything I could get my hands on written by Loughner and about Loughner by law enforcement, teachers and administrators.

.
.
.
.
I can tell you five things with absolute certainty.
.
.
.
.
.
Loughner is irrational.

Read the postings from Loughner linked in this thread, it's posts and videos from many sources, though it started with just the forum postings:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/law-a...and-threads-above-top-secret.html#post3209879
​

.
.
.
.
.
Loughner neither realized nor understood that he was irrational.

"Officer Mattocks spoke with LOUGHNER and at this point the loss of freedom of speech turned into freedom of thought and his right to write whatever he wanted to and get a good grade on his work. LOUGHNER was not understanding that his actions and causing a disruption in class had nothing to do with his to freedom of speech or freedom of thought. LOUGHNER was unable to process why the police were involved in the incident." (p.30)
​

.
.
.
.
.
Loughner's parents knew there was a mental concern involved.

"I began asking Jared another question and Jared stated he should not say any more. I asked why and Jerad state that his parents told him not to say more." (p.41)
​

.
.
.
.
.
The Campus Police identified that Loughner was suffering from a mental condition.

"The conversation was grading as Officer States and I considered the best possible options with Mr. Loughner's state of mind and reasoning. It was clear that he was unable to fully understand his actions and an Administrative approach was reasonable at this time." (p.32)
​

"Officer Mattocks and l met with Mr. Conover and conveyed to him that through our training and experience that there might be a mental health concern involved with LOUGHNER." (p.31)
​

.
.
.
.
.
Teachers and Administrators understood that Loughner might be a threat to others.

"According to Curry, she spoke with Loughner outside
the classroom, and felt like it might become physical. Loughner was then referred to Curry's supervisor,· Susan
Heinrich, who according to Curry also felt "intimidated." No contact has been made with Heinrich or Loughner at this
time.

Curry stated that her last semester class is scheduled for 1700 hours at CFA Recital Hall, and did not feel comfortable
teaching without an officer in the area." I infomed Curry that I would be near the CFA until her class ended.at 1800
hours; she acknowledged. I monitored the CFA complex until Curry's class ended at about 1755 hours, and then
cleared the call at about 1800 hours." (p.5)


"It was decided that LOUGHNER should not be allowed back into the classroom today due to the instructor and other students not feeling comfortable with LOUGHNER after the earlier disruption." (p.30)


"Officer Mattocks and l met with Mr. Conover [the Advanced Program Manager for Northwest Campus] and conveyed to him that through our training and experience that there might be a mental health concern involved with LOUGHNER. Mr. Conover stated that he had met with LOUGHNER on two previous occasions for disruptive behavior." (p.31)

"A writing instructor asked that I [ Mr. Conover] follow up with the student after he had made a "bizarre" comment in class. During the class student were talking about the poems they had written. One of the female students had a poem that in some way connected to abortion. With no context, Jared stated that we should have dynamite attached to babies. When I met with Jared his mother accompanied him. I asked Jared to help me understand his comment. He said that the class had been talking about abortion, which made him think of death, which made him think of suicide bombers, which made him think of babies as suicicde bombers." (p.42)

The excerpts above are taken from this PDF file of reports and statement released by Pima Community College:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/nytdocs/docs/556/556.pdf

​

So in other words he was a Tea Partier?





j/k but there are some similarities.

 

[EriktheRed]

Loughner posts show not a single reference to anything said by the right.


90% of them are nearly incoherent.

How many times are you going to keep repeating what we're already agreeing with?

If Rush Limbaugh's billboard is getting shot up, I seriously doubt it's anyone on the right doing the shooting.

No....

Clear Channel pulls Limbaugh’s ‘Straight Shooter’ billboard in Tucson | Raw Story

 

[Missourian]

What we should be discussing is how to fix the reporting of mental illness.

The college didn't report what was an obvious deranged person, they kicked him out and figured he was now someone else's problem.

The parents knew something was terribly wrong, yet did nothing.

The campus police deferred to the authority of the college administrators instead of following their intuition.

These are the problem that led to this tragedy.

The question is...does the left want to solve the problem, or score political points?

Thus far it's been the latter.

 

[Missourian]

Loughner posts show not a single reference to anything said by the right.


90% of them are nearly incoherent.

How many times are you going to keep repeating what we're already agreeing with?

If Rush Limbaugh's billboard is getting shot up, I seriously doubt it's anyone on the right doing the shooting.

No....

Clear Channel pulls Limbaugh’s ‘Straight Shooter’ billboard in Tucson | Raw Story

You've got to be kidding me!

This is exactly the kind of crap I'm talking about.

"Straight Shooter" ?!?!?!

Give me a break man.

Who hasn't said "straight shooter"?

I've also "shot the shit" with my buddies...do you think we were involved in violent firearm assaults on excrement?

 

[EriktheRed]

What we should be discussing is how to fix the reporting of mental illness.

The college didn't report what was an obvious deranged person, they kicked him out and figured he was now someone else's problem.

The parents knew something was terribly wrong, yet did nothing.

The campus police deferred to the authority of the college administrators instead of following their intuition.

These are the problem that let to this tragedy.

The question is...does the left want to solve the problem, or score political points?

Thus far it's been the latter.

Oh, but people on the left HAVE also been talking about mental illness, too. We just don't want the crap that RW voices have been polluting the national discourse with to be forgotten now that it's gotten more national attention.

 

[EriktheRed]

You've got to be kidding me!

This is exactly the kind of crap I'm talking about.

"Straight Shooter" ?!?!?!

Give me a break man.

Who hasn't said "straight shooter"?

I've also "shot the shit"...do you think I was advocating for violent assaults on excrement?

Take the matter up with ClearChannel, Rush's bosses. They're the ones who felt the need to take it down for some reason.

 

[Missourian]

What we should be discussing is how to fix the reporting of mental illness.

The college didn't report what was an obvious deranged person, they kicked him out and figured he was now someone else's problem.

The parents knew something was terribly wrong, yet did nothing.

The campus police deferred to the authority of the college administrators instead of following their intuition.

These are the problem that let to this tragedy.

The question is...does the left want to solve the problem, or score political points?

Thus far it's been the latter.

Oh, but people on the left HAVE also been talking about mental illness, too. We just don't want the crap that RW voices have been polluting the national discourse with to be forgotten now that it's gotten more national attention.

IOW, silencing opponents by scoring political point based on a bullcrap....gotcha.

 

[elvis]

It's no one's fault, yet words have consequences. Make up your minds.

 

[Missourian]

Liberal media framing a debate without a shred of evidence...which turns out to be total hogwash.

Neither right nor left wing rhetoric had a thing to do with Loughner, Tuscon or Rep Giffords.

The facts bear it out.

So what is the left calling attention to?

Scoring political points against those they disagree with.

 

[EriktheRed]

What we should be discussing is how to fix the reporting of mental illness.

The college didn't report what was an obvious deranged person, they kicked him out and figured he was now someone else's problem.

The parents knew something was terribly wrong, yet did nothing.

The campus police deferred to the authority of the college administrators instead of following their intuition.

These are the problem that let to this tragedy.

The question is...does the left want to solve the problem, or score political points?

Thus far it's been the latter.

Oh, but people on the left HAVE also been talking about mental illness, too. We just don't want the crap that RW voices have been polluting the national discourse with to be forgotten now that it's gotten more national attention.

IOW, silencing opponents by scoring political point based on a bullcrap....gotcha.

Silencing? Naw...

Just want 'em to stop talking like people who are lib/dems are so evil they're deserving of having violence done on them, that's all. You may notice Olbermann, Maddow, et. al. don't have to tell they're viewers that they don't want them to go out and actually do violence to conservative Republicans.

 

[Missourian]

It's no one's fault, yet words have consequences. Make up your minds.

Exactly...can't have it both ways.

 

[whitehall]

Everyone knew it at the time that Loughner was a hopeless nut-case who actually leaned left in his political affiliation. Democrats have the best spin machine lubricated by the left wing media so their spin was the first account that anyone saw. Nobody denies the president the bully pulpit so the pep rally disguised as a memorial service was what everyone remembered. Now the truth gets the shi*tty end of the stick while wild baseless claims have been repeated so often in the media that they pass for the truth in the minds of pop-culture educated people.

 

[Missourian]

Oh, but people on the left HAVE also been talking about mental illness, too. We just don't want the crap that RW voices have been polluting the national discourse with to be forgotten now that it's gotten more national attention.

IOW, silencing opponents by scoring political point based on a bullcrap....gotcha.

Silencing? Naw...

Just want 'em to stop talking like people who are lib/dems are so evil they're deserving of having violence done on them, that's all. You may notice Olbermann, Maddow, et. al. don't have to tell they're viewers that they don't want them to go out and actually do violence to conservative Republicans.

Show me where Palin or Beck or Limbaugh or Boehner or any other pundit, talk radio host or politician...hell, anyone...has said that.

 

[DiveCon]

It's no one's fault, yet words have consequences. Make up your minds.

thing is, on the right, what i have heard is "words mean things" not that they had "consequences"

 

[DiveCon]

IOW, silencing opponents by scoring political point based on a bullcrap....gotcha.

Silencing? Naw...

Just want 'em to stop talking like people who are lib/dems are so evil they're deserving of having violence done on them, that's all. You may notice Olbermann, Maddow, et. al. don't have to tell they're viewers that they don't want them to go out and actually do violence to conservative Republicans.

Show me where Palin or Beck or Limbaugh or Boehner or any other pundit, talk radio host or politician...hell, anyone...has said that.

Ann Coulter and Savage have said things like that