My CREATOR is the Sum Total of the Laws of the Universe.

[gautama]

MY CREATOR

PART ONE:

Most people feel that the reason they are agnostic but prevented from being an atheist is that according to the UNANIMOUS OPINION of the Greatest Philosophers of Mankind: "The existence of god cannot be proven or disproven". And that opinion of the Greatest Philosophers of Mankind (which can be verified by calling any Chairman of the Philosophy Dept of any reputable University in America, or the World) leaves most people with the erroneous opinion that the idiotic mysticism promulgated by the Organized RELIGIONS of the World is the only other option regarding the existence of a Creator.To wit, if you believe in a CREATOR.....then it's gotta be the CREATOR of one of the Organized Religions of the World.

Religion is NOT based on FACTS. Religion is based on unprovable FANTASIES. And, to the Religious their FANTASIES are FACTS For instance, to the Christians, people walking on water is a FACT. So is people rising from the dead .... a FACT, etc. The anomaly that these FACTS do NOT exist in REALITY is simply IGNORED. Thus, the fatal flaw of Religions is that all of them IGNORE the limitations that SCIENTIFIC or RIGOROUS PHILOSOPHICAL PROCESS imposes on them. Religions dwell in the realm of FANTASY where ANY ANOMALY is possible. Any anomaly is accepted as FACT.....depending on which religion you accept. Thus, logically, one should not be ridiculed if one believes in the FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER (undoubtedly, with a noodle-like appendage).

Most people erroneously think that the ONLY reason to be an agnostic is that the rejection of a RELIGIOUS GOD means the rejection of a CREATOR....and THIS they cannot accept because to them the wonderous Universe's existence (and their own existence) is so structured that a random happenstance is inconceivable.

I wrestled with this dilemma throughout my formative years. And I am rather proud of the fact that I came to the following conclusion: To accept the bizarre mysticism of the Organized Religions of the World, (for example: people walking on water, a virgin is NOT a virgin, i.e. A not equal to A, people rising from the dead, etc) is nothing short of being delusional. So....there had to be another version of a CREATOR. (Contnd).

 

[gautama]

MY CREATOR

PART TWO

The only other version of a CREATOR that made sense to me, the version that fits the REALITY on Earth, the belief where one doesn't have to believe bizarro events i.e., such things as Uncle Harry being dead, suddenly arising from the dead, and is scarfing a hamburger at Burger King's around the corner, or "A" = NOT "A", etc is.............that the CREATOR is simply the SUM TOTAL OF ALL THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE.

WHAT ARE THE FACTS ??? WHAT IS EVERYDAY REALITY ???

Answer: When humans die they turn into fertilizer.....no different than a dog, a cockroach, etc.

And the idiotic delusion that PRAYERS somehow MIRACULOUSLY changes REALITY to satisfy the selfish wishes of someone who dutifully grovelled to a RELGIOUS GOD is not only delusional...it really verges on either gross STUPIDITY or INSANITY.....when considering the REALITY of the results of one's prayers. Statistically, one gets the identically same results from praying to the nearest rock in your garden !!!

Prayers to the ULTIMATE LAWS OF NATURE is like praying to the LIGHTNING, exhorting it to not strike you.

Guess what ? To my utter amazement, my conclusions, prior to any info about either Einstein's or Spinoza's on this topic, were almost identical to Einstein's. And, Einstein's God was Spinoza's God. Both of them reached the almost identical conclusion.

 

[HUGGY]

MY CREATOR

PART TWO

The only other version of a CREATOR that made sense to me, the version that fits the REALITY on Earth, the belief where one doesn't have to believe bizarro events i.e., such things as Uncle Harry being dead, suddenly arising from the dead, and is scarfing a hamburger at Burger King's around the corner, or "A" = NOT "A", etc is.............that the CREATOR is simply the SUM TOTAL OF ALL THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE.

WHAT ARE THE FACTS ??? WHAT IS EVERYDAY REALITY ???

Answer: When humans die they turn into fertilizer.....no different than a dog, a cockroach, etc.

And the idiotic delusion that PRAYERS somehow MIRACULOUSLY changes REALITY to satisfy the selfish wishes of someone who dutifully grovelled to a RELGIOUS GOD is not only delusional...it really verges on either gross STUPIDITY or INSANITY.....when considering the REALITY of the results of one's prayers. Statistically, one gets the identically same results from praying to the nearest rock in your garden !!!

Prayers to the ULTIMATE LAWS OF NATURE is like praying to the LIGHTNING, exhorting it to not strike you.

Guess what ? To my utter amazement, my conclusions, prior to any info about either Einstein's or Spinoza's on this topic, were almost identical to Einstein's. And, Einstein's God was Spinoza's God. Both of them reached the almost identical conclusion.

So who IS yor creator?...The Devil? Mine were Natalie and Dwight.

 

[dattaswami]

MY CREATOR

PART ONE:

Most people feel that the reason they are agnostic but prevented from being an atheist is that according to the UNANIMO.... my formative years. And I am rather proud of the fact that I came to the following conclusion: To accept the bizarre mysticism of the Organized Religions of the World, (for example: people walking on water, a virgin is NOT a virgin, i.e. A not equal to A, people rising from the dead, etc) is nothing short of being delusional. So....there had to be another version of a CREATOR. (Contnd).

God has no beginning and no end because God is unimaginable. The beginning and the end must be also unimaginable for an unimaginable item. The beginning and the end of the cosmic energy or space or the creation are also unimaginable. Therefore, the beginning and the end are unimaginable for the unimaginable item like God and also for the imaginable item like space. Therefore, the two points, which are the beginning-less and end-less characteristics cannot help you in understanding the real nature of God. If you start recognizing the God by simply these two points (beginning-less and end-less), you may think that God is an imaginable item like the space or energy or the creation. In fact based on these two characteristics people have imagined God as an imaginable item like space or energy or creation. This concept has misled people to such a low level that people think that God is the very infinite space or infinite energy or infinite creation. Therefore, one should filter the concept of God at this juncture itself. One should think that God has no beginning and no end because the beginning and the end of an unimaginable item are also unimaginable.

Such God desired to create this Universe for entertainment. The very desire itself is the Creation. In view of God this present materialized universe in only an idea or imagination or the very desire itself. Therefore, the desire to create the world is itself the desire and also the created world itself is a desire. Thus the creation, maintenance and dissolution of the imaginary world are also imaginations or desires. A part of this infinite creation is the individual soul. The soul is like a drop of the infinite ocean of imagination or desire of God. Thus, quantitatively the entire ocean of imagination of God is very huge compared to the tiny soul. Remember that both the Universe and the tiny soul are made of the same substance called as imagination or desire. Thus the force of the Universe is far greater than the force of the soul. Due to such huge quantitative difference of the same phase, the Universe, which is far stronger than the soul appears as a materialized entity for the soul. But this infinite ocean of desire, which is the infinite Universe is a tiny drop compared to the infinite force of God. Therefore, again due to the same quantitative difference of force the entire universe is just the very weak imagination from the view of God. Thus imagination and materialization exist simultaneously true from the point of God and soul.

For the sake of entertainment, God desired to create the Universe. This statement is in Veda (Sa dviteeya Maicchat). In this statement there is a very subtle intermediate stage, which is the essence of the desire to create the Universe. The desire to create the world is like the golden ornament but the essence of such desire is like the raw gold in which the ornament is not yet expressed. Such raw essence of the desire is pure awareness. The pure awareness is a special subtle form of energy, which is not qualified by any form. Such pure awareness is called as the spirit, which is not qualified and does not have any attribute. This is called as “Nirguna Brahman”, which means the pure awareness, which has no reference to the creation of the universe.


It is a very critical and subtle point to recognize the pure awareness. Veda says that only very very sharp intelligence can grasp that critical state (Drushyate Tvagraya bhuddhya). Sankara, the topmost genius among the spiritual preachers could grasp that state and proposed the concept of Nirguna Brahman or non-qualified pure awareness. Such pure awareness is the first creation of God (Parabrahman). This first creation is almost as critical and unimaginable as the very Parabrahman itself. The only difference is that Parabrahman is absolutely unimaginable for any sharp intelligence, but this pure awareness is imaginable only for a very sharp intelligence. This pure awareness is called as Mula Prakriti or Suddha Sattvam or Mula Avidya or Mula Maya or the Spirit in general. The Parabrahman maintains such spirit and it is only an associated item and is the first created item. The word Mula means the first. This spirit is in the form of knowledge. It is aware of itself, which means that it is knowledge. Knowledge requires both subjective and objective characteristics. It is subject as well as the object. Therefore, it is called as knowledge or Sattvam. This knowledge is the first form of energy.

Universal-Spirituality
Universal Spirituality for World Peace

 

[HUGGY]

MY CREATOR

PART ONE:

Most people feel that the reason they are agnostic but prevented from being an atheist is that according to the UNANIMO.... my formative years. And I am rather proud of the fact that I came to the following conclusion: To accept the bizarre mysticism of the Organized Religions of the World, (for example: people walking on water, a virgin is NOT a virgin, i.e. A not equal to A, people rising from the dead, etc) is nothing short of being delusional. So....there had to be another version of a CREATOR. (Contnd).

God has no beginning and no end because God is unimaginable. The beginning and the end must be also unimaginable for an unimaginable item. The beginning and the end of the cosmic energy or space or the creation are also unimaginable. Therefore, the beginning and the end are unimaginable for the unimaginable item like God and also for the imaginable item like space. Therefore, the two points, which are the beginning-less and end-less characteristics cannot help you in understanding the real nature of God. If you start recognizing the God by simply these two points (beginning-less and end-less), you may think that God is an imaginable item like the space or energy or the creation. In fact based on these two characteristics people have imagined God as an imaginable item like space or energy or creation. This concept has misled people to such a low level that people think that God is the very infinite space or infinite energy or infinite creation. Therefore, one should filter the concept of God at this juncture itself. One should think that God has no beginning and no end because the beginning and the end of an unimaginable item are also unimaginable.

Such God desired to create this Universe for entertainment. The very desire itself is the Creation. In view of God this present materialized universe in only an idea or imagination or the very desire itself. Therefore, the desire to create the world is itself the desire and also the created world itself is a desire. Thus the creation, maintenance and dissolution of the imaginary world are also imaginations or desires. A part of this infinite creation is the individual soul. The soul is like a drop of the infinite ocean of imagination or desire of God. Thus, quantitatively the entire ocean of imagination of God is very huge compared to the tiny soul. Remember that both the Universe and the tiny soul are made of the same substance called as imagination or desire. Thus the force of the Universe is far greater than the force of the soul. Due to such huge quantitative difference of the same phase, the Universe, which is far stronger than the soul appears as a materialized entity for the soul. But this infinite ocean of desire, which is the infinite Universe is a tiny drop compared to the infinite force of God. Therefore, again due to the same quantitative difference of force the entire universe is just the very weak imagination from the view of God. Thus imagination and materialization exist simultaneously true from the point of God and soul.

For the sake of entertainment, God desired to create the Universe. This statement is in Veda (Sa dviteeya Maicchat). In this statement there is a very subtle intermediate stage, which is the essence of the desire to create the Universe. The desire to create the world is like the golden ornament but the essence of such desire is like the raw gold in which the ornament is not yet expressed. Such raw essence of the desire is pure awareness. The pure awareness is a special subtle form of energy, which is not qualified by any form. Such pure awareness is called as the spirit, which is not qualified and does not have any attribute. This is called as “Nirguna Brahman”, which means the pure awareness, which has no reference to the creation of the universe.


It is a very critical and subtle point to recognize the pure awareness. Veda says that only very very sharp intelligence can grasp that critical state (Drushyate Tvagraya bhuddhya). Sankara, the topmost genius among the spiritual preachers could grasp that state and proposed the concept of Nirguna Brahman or non-qualified pure awareness. Such pure awareness is the first creation of God (Parabrahman). This first creation is almost as critical and unimaginable as the very Parabrahman itself. The only difference is that Parabrahman is absolutely unimaginable for any sharp intelligence, but this pure awareness is imaginable only for a very sharp intelligence. This pure awareness is called as Mula Prakriti or Suddha Sattvam or Mula Avidya or Mula Maya or the Spirit in general. The Parabrahman maintains such spirit and it is only an associated item and is the first created item. The word Mula means the first. This spirit is in the form of knowledge. It is aware of itself, which means that it is knowledge. Knowledge requires both subjective and objective characteristics. It is subject as well as the object. Therefore, it is called as knowledge or Sattvam. This knowledge is the first form of energy.

Universal-Spirituality
Universal Spirituality for World Peace

That's the lamest longwinded circular logic bullshit I have seen in defense of the existance of god. Thanks for wasting my time.

Now back to kicking your dumb asses......

 

[BrokenAngel]

Why are you so overheated about this!? Breathe, relax... take a step away from any sharp objects, ok....

Now that you are feeling better I have a silly question. Why is it that God has to be mysticism and hocus pocus? What if he were more like... lets see who is a good example... Ahh! Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen? ^_^

Religion and piety are acts of the heart and soul. People don't believe in them because they would rather be sitting in a hutch somewhere, shaking a rattle and praying for the pnemonia to clear out of the lungs of a child. You have faith because it fills you with a love, warmth, and completeness you didn't feel before. You have faith because, for you, it all simply makes sense, as if you can see past the actual world and simply understand.

It is a different journey for every individual and no one is going to tell you your beliefs are stupid or irrational so the tirade is uneeded on the rest of us. Hope you get a massage soon! You seem to need it heheh

 

[HUGGY]

Why are you so overheated about this!? Breathe, relax... take a step away from any sharp objects, ok....

Now that you are feeling better I have a silly question. Why is it that God has to be mysticism and hocus pocus? What if he were more like... lets see who is a good example... Ahh! Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen? ^_^

Religion and piety are acts of the heart and soul. People don't believe in them because they would rather be sitting in a hutch somewhere, shaking a rattle and praying for the pnemonia to clear out of the lungs of a child. You have faith because it fills you with a love, warmth, and completeness you didn't feel before. You have faith because, for you, it all simply makes sense, as if you can see past the actual world and simply understand.

It is a different journey for every individual and no one is going to tell you your beliefs are stupid or irrational so the tirade is uneeded on the rest of us. Hope you get a massage soon! You seem to need it heheh

Do you really talk to people like this in real life? I'd be afraid of getting tossed out a window in a tall building. Overheated? I have another example for you...That wacko in No Country For Old Men..the one with the "air gun". Serious...deliberate....no remorse. That is your god..we maketh ...he taketh.

 

[BrokenAngel]

Why are you so overheated about this!? Breathe, relax... take a step away from any sharp objects, ok....

Now that you are feeling better I have a silly question. Why is it that God has to be mysticism and hocus pocus? What if he were more like... lets see who is a good example... Ahh! Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen? ^_^

Religion and piety are acts of the heart and soul. People don't believe in them because they would rather be sitting in a hutch somewhere, shaking a rattle and praying for the pnemonia to clear out of the lungs of a child. You have faith because it fills you with a love, warmth, and completeness you didn't feel before. You have faith because, for you, it all simply makes sense, as if you can see past the actual world and simply understand.

It is a different journey for every individual and no one is going to tell you your beliefs are stupid or irrational so the tirade is uneeded on the rest of us. Hope you get a massage soon! You seem to need it heheh

Do you really talk to people like this in real life? I'd be afraid of getting tossed out a window in a tall building. Overheated? I have another example for you...That wacko in No Country For Old Men..the one with the "air gun". Serious...deliberate....no remorse. That is your god..we maketh ...he taketh.

I actually couldn't make myself watch that movie. I kept falling asleep lol. And yes I do tend to talk like this in real life but I don't tend to talk about religion in real life. Most people get offended the instant you say you have faith for some reason, even if you don't argue that their beliefs are wrong. You say "I believe in God" and its like the mentally painted a bullseye on you and want to see you cry.

Anyways hehe.. Why do you hate God so much? Or rather the idea of it? I am curious now because most atheists merely tell you that there is no such creator but you are saying He is a being without remorse that simply takes. Everything alright or do you need a hug?

 

[gautama]

Huggy said: So who IS yor creator?...The Devil? Mine were Natalie and Dwight.

The second part of Huggy's phraseology exposes Huggy as an ignorant person. And, usually, ignorance is a state of being that is largely attributed to being STUPID.

Why am I even bothering to waste my time with Huggy's irrelevancy ? o Answer: Because thoughtful people reading this post will read my response to Huggy's question: "So who IS your creator". Thus, Huggy wallowing in his condescending "kick ass" posture inadvertently asked a meaningful question.

IMO, No one is capable of knowing who or what God, or our Creator is. Each one of us pondering this question can only GUESS by considering the FACTS as we know them, or interpret them.

I presented my ideas on this topic in Parts One and Two in the opening of this thread.

Let me expand on my version of WHO or WHAT the Creator is. First, I don't believe in FANTASIES or MYTHOLOGIES documented in the annals of the Organized Religions of the World. The Bible, Quran, etc., are simply STORIES, laced with FANTASIES, handed down thru generations with very little credibility except for the fact that a Jesus, or a Mohammed actually existed as human beings.

I reiterate: I DO NOT KNOW, NOR DO I ASSERT THE VALIDITY OF MY OPINION AS TO WHO OR WHAT MY VERSION OF THE CREATOR IS !!!

IMO, no one in the course of human history past, present or future will EVER KNOW who the Creator is. Our minds are too inadequate to perceive such a complex concept that supposedly, IMO, has no begining nor an end.

MY GUESS is that IF there is a Creator, and there may very well be one......The Creator, has no begining nor an end, and is the SUM TOTAL OF THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE.

The MAGNITUDE of the concept of the Creator leads me to speculate that the Creator is EVERYTHING that "IS" and "IS NOT". And, this "IS" and "IS NOT" is not limited to the present time.....but for ALL TIME without begining or end.

And that "IS" or "IS NOT" is not limited to human beings, their existence, or non-existence due to the time factor, etc.

So, EVERYTHING in the UNIVERSE is the CREATOR.....WE, as human beings in TOTALITY are a superinfinitesimal part of the CREATOR...... as are elephants, cockroaches, apples, chairs....EVERYTHING....... including thoughts or non-thoughts of EVERYTHING.

GOOD ??? EVIL ???? Does GOOD or EVIL exist ????

Answer: OF COURSE GOOD and EVIL EXISTS......FOR US.

We must label some events or actions as GOOD and EVIL to have a functioning society.

But is there such a thing as GOOD or EVIL in the UNIVERSAL SENSE ????

Of course NOT !!!

Does a rat give a rat's ass as to what is or is not GOOD or EVIL for humans ?????

Is there such a thing as an EVIL flood, or earthquake ???

Of course NOT !!!

 

[Avatar4321]

IMO, no one in the course of human history past, present or future will EVER KNOW who the Creator is. Our minds are too inadequate to perceive such a complex concept that supposedly, IMO, has no begining nor an end.

Now that is a fantasy.

God is our Father. And anyone can know that. They simply have to seek Him out as He asks and He will reveal Himself to them.

But you presume that because you dont know, no one can or does and fail to seek, so you never find.

You presume that Our Creator has no power to build our minds so that we can understand.

I will never understand those of you who declare that no one including yourself has no knowledge of the divine and then expect people to acknowledge your views of diety as if yours is the only logical. If you dont know something, search for it! Dont just conclude there is nothing and then presume that your viewpoints should somehow be listened to.

If i told you that no one can or ever will understand calculus including myself, then turned arounded and told you what I thought of derivatives, youd think i was absolutely insane and had zero credibility to speak on the subject. Im going to lecture you on a subject I dont know jack about. Look at me. I'm so smart.

It just makes absolutely no sense.

If you want to know the things of God, go to God. If you dont know about something, why pretend your well informed? I am not going to tell a bunch of people at NASA about astrophysics and pretend as though Im smart and they are stupid when i know very little about the subject and I know that I know nothing about the subject.

Quite the opposite. I'd ask questions. And listen. Learn and puzzle things out myself as well.

Am I the only one who feels this way?

 

[gautama]

dattaswami stated:

"God has no beginning and no end because God is unimaginable. The beginning and the end must be also unimaginable for an unimaginable item. The beginning and the end of the cosmic energy or space or the creation are also unimaginable. Therefore, the beginning and the end are unimaginable for the unimaginable item like God and also for the imaginable item like space. Therefore, the two points, which are the beginning-less and end-less characteristics cannot help you in understanding the real nature of God. If you start recognizing the God by simply these two points (beginning-less and end-less), you may think that God is an imaginable item like the space or energy or the creation. In fact based on these two characteristics people have imagined God as an imaginable item like space or energy or creation. This concept has misled people to such a low level that people think that God is the very infinite space or infinite energy or infinite creation. Therefore, one should filter the concept of God at this juncture itself. One should think that God has no beginning and no end because the beginning and the end of an unimaginable item are also unimaginable.

Such God desired to create this Universe for entertainment.......etc....etc...and etc.... ( I know, I know one "etc" implies other etc., but I think this way it's more compelling)

Well, dattaswami, IMO your first paragraph was "bang on" !

Apparently we agree that the Creator is "UNIMAGINABLE" with "NO BEGINING or and END".

And, then, as do the other Organized Religions of the World,, you CONTRADICT what you stated in the first paragraph !!!

Your second paragraph begins with: "Such God desired to create this Universe for entertainment." This second paragraph and the other paragraphs that follow is unmitigated and unadulterated TOTAL CRAP !!!!!

If you state that the Creator is " UNIMAGINABLE", how then can you postulate that this "God DESIRED (caps mine) to create this Universe for entertainment " ???

You replicate the same flaw of HUMAN ARROGANCE that other Organized Religions of the World do by ASCRIBING TO HUMAN INTELLIGENCE their "SUPPOSED" knowledge of the Creator, and even his "DESIRES", albeit by the God's "SUPPOSED" predilection for not only human beings ...... but by some convoluted logic.....to certain human beings with special gifts of insight.

You can't have it both ways, pal.

Either God is UNIMAGINABLE.....or God is IMAGINABLE ( or portions of him/it)

You are playing the same game that the Christians do......you want to substitute FANTASY for REALITY.

You play the game of REALITY until it suits YOUR RELIGION'S AGENDA to then take a FANTASY and establish it as a FACT existing in REALITY.

As stated previously in one of my posts, the Christians do it with such GROSS EXAMPLES of "FANTASY = REALITY" in "people rising from the dead", "people walking on water", "Virgin Mary being a "virgin" even though by definition she is NOT a "virgin", etc.

 

[gautama]

Avatar,

You state that "God is our Father" And anyone can know that."

Well, either you have a serious disability in that you don't know how to read with understanding. Or, you feel that your mind is superior to the Greatest Minds in the History of Mankind". I am referring to my post where I clearly state that the Greatest Minds in the History of Mankind, ( when tackling the question of the "existence or non-existence of God") eventually ALL come to the UNANIMOUS CONCLUSION that: "it cannot be proved or disproved that God exists."

You can call the Chairman of any Philosophy Dept of any reputable University in the World (providing it's not a RELIGIOUS INSTITUTION such as Notre Dame, or some whackjob Wahhabi University in Saudi Arabia, etc)......and find out for yourself the veracity of my assertion.

As stated I have a more humble relationship with my Creator......if he/it exists. For instance, I am not arrogant enough to believe in the Anthropomorphic God of most religions. Thus in the Bible, for instance, while God is a super wonderful chap, he is also a petty vengeful, spiteful, egotistical and murderous scumbag. As a matter of fact, I know scores of people whom I admire more than THAT God.

If you were educated enough, I think that you'd find that MOST, if not ALL the wise religious leaders (including Christians) ACKNOWLEDGE that it is IMPOSSIBLE to prove the existence or non existence of God. These wise religious leaders properly understand that Religion is based on FAITH......not irrefutable FACTS.

Thus, your OBVIOUSLY FALLACIOUS opening comment that somehow by YOU knowing that "God is our Father" because YOU and those like YOU believe that "God is our Father" that ipso facto it must be a FACT..... since YOUR belief is somehow superior to other beliefs......superceding even the UNANIMOUS CONCLUSION of the Greatest Minds in the History of Mankind.

Your advise that "if I want to know the things of God, go to God" is a bunch of unimitigated and unadulterated CRAPPOLA.

You may be DELUSIONAL enough to think that you can have a chat with God whenever your urge is strong enough to engage in that FANTASY.....others (not I) may think that you, and those delusional freaks like you should be adorned with a strait jacket and trundled off into the nearest Looney-bin.

BTW, those of you who believe in your chats with a "supposed" God, And, undoubtedly, PRAY to him/it......do you realize that the prayers to your imaginary Gods have the same statistical result as praying to the nearest rock in your garden ????

 

[Avatar4321]

Well, either you have a serious disability in that you don't know how to read with understanding. Or, you feel that your mind is superior to the Greatest Minds in the History of Mankind". I am referring to my post where I clearly state that the Greatest Minds in the History of Mankind, ( when tackling the question of the "existence or non-existence of God") eventually ALL come to the UNANIMOUS CONCLUSION that: "it cannot be proved or disproved that God exists."

I have a tendency to think that anyone who declares themselves as the greatest mind history of mankind is pretty much full of crap. In fact, the very attitude of superiority is the greatest sign of intellectual inferiority. So no, I am not simply going to accept that your unnamed so called greatest minds of history had come to a unanimous conclusion about anything. Especially simply on your say so

However, if these so called great minds are saying that, I would say that they are probably correct. They cannot prove God exists. But thankfully God is greater than the so called greatest minds in reality and can prove He exists to anyone. And He does reveal himself to those that seek Him as He asked.

Of course, to do this one has to accept that there are things you do not know and actually try to seek that knowledge out. This is difficult for alot of people for some reason. I dont understand it myself. They want to prove the things of the Spirit with the things of the flesh and refuse to try to learn the things of the Spirit by the Spirit. You want to know about God: Ask Him. Trust me, after a 5 minute view into the Heavens, you wont need any more proof there is a God. It will be pretty clear. Even if you arent the greatest mind in the universe.

You can call the Chairman of any Philosophy Dept of any reputable University in the World (providing it's not a RELIGIOUS INSTITUTION such as Notre Dame, or some whackjob Wahhabi University in Saudi Arabia, etc)......and find out for yourself the veracity of my assertion.

So the greatest minds in the history of the world are all currently living and work at non-religious unversities? Good to know.

As stated I have a more humble relationship with my Creator......if he/it exists. For instance, I am not arrogant enough to believe in the Anthropomorhic God of most religions. Thus in the Bible, for instance, while God is a super wonderful chap, he is also a petty vengeful, spiteful, egotistical and murderous scumbag. As a matter of fact, I know scores of people whom I admire more than THAT God.

Cant imagine why you have no clue whether there is a God.

If you were educated enough, I think that you'd find that MOST, if not ALL the wise religious leaders (including Christians) ACKNOWLEDGE that it is IMPOSSIBLE to prove the existence or non existence of God. These wise religious leaders properly understand that Religion is based on FAITH......not irrefutable FACTS.

Faith cannot exist unless its based on facts. Simply because you do not learn those facts doesnt mean they are any less facts. It's a fact that my computer is on a lapdesk. You can't cant prove that, but it doesnt mean its not a fact.

As for whate wise religious leaders properly understand: Faith: The Essense of True Religion

The issue isnt that faith is not based on facts. It's that you dont understand what faith is.

Thus, your OBVIOUSLY FALLACIOUS opening comment that somehow by YOU knowing that "God is our Father" because YOU and those like YOU believe that "God is our Father" that ipso facto it must be a FACT..... since YOUR belief is somehow superior to other beliefs......superceding even the UNANIMOUS CONCLUSION of the Greatest Minds in the History of Mankind.

I don't know that God is our father because I believe iet. I know God is our Father because He has revealed it to me. It is a fact. I see no reason to pretend otherwise. I know it and God knows that I know it. So why would I lie about it? How can you learn it unless you realize others know it and that you can know it to?

The so called greatest minds again. You know, if they spent as much time searching as they did declaring and end to knowledge, they might learn something.

Your advise that "if I want to know the things of God, go to God" is a bunch of unimitigated and unadulterated CRAPPOLA.

Who am I supposed to learn about God from? Someone who claims to know nothing about God? Why would I do that when the source Himelf as counseled us to seek Him out and learn from Him? Declaring it crappola doesnt change the fact that an all powerful being can speak for Himself and is more than happy to do so when people speak with Him and seek Him out as He has requested.

You may be DELUSIONAL enough to think that you can have a chat with God whenever your urge is strong enough to engage in that FANTASY.....others (not I) may think that you, and those delusional freaks like you should be adorned with a strait jacket and trundled off into the nearest Looney-bin.

Got you. Im delusional because you havent experienced it. Even though I sit here inviting you and everyone else to just go before the Lord and seek Him out. My experiences arent unique. they dont make me better than anyone else. If I thought they did, I wouldnt be encouraging people to go out and have the same experiences.

How do you expect to ever truly learn about God if you write off any actual experience with him as automatically insane? And why should we care what you think if that's what you believe? Believe me delusional if it makes you sleep better at night. I don't care. I am not going to close my mind or my mouth simply because it offends you.

BTW, those of you who believe in your chats with a "supposed" God, And, undoubtedly, PRAY to him/it......do you realize that the prayers to your imaginary Gods have the same statistical result as praying to the nearest rock in your garden ????

You dont have to take my word for it. Ask Him yourself. Seek Him yourself. Youll learn alot more that way then you ever will simply by declaring such knowledge unlearnable and then presuming to explain to people why they are wrong about a subject you admit you know nothing about.

 

[gautama]

Avatar stated:I have a tendency to think that anyone who declares themselves as the greatest mind history of mankind is pretty much full of crap. In fact, the very attitude of superiority is the greatest sign of intellectual inferiority. So no, I am not simply going to accept that your unnamed so called greatest minds of history had come to a unanimous conclusion about anything. Especially simply on your say so

My response: Apparently, you have not been exposed to Philosophy courses in the university you attended. Actually, there seems to be every indication that you have not attended a university, since you make assumptions that border on the irrational.

I have NOT stated that the Greatest Minds in the History of Mankind declared THEMSELVES to be of that exalted stature ( these Great Philosophers have been so named by others THROUGHOUT HISTORY). For you to leap to your unwarranted conclusion is somewhat bizarre.....especially since the statement I made re these Great Philosophers and their conclusions is a well established fact for anyone KNOWLEDGEABLE in the field of Philosophy dealing with one of the greatest questions of all time i.e. the existence of God.

Next, you seem to be losing the battle with the simple ability to READ what is in front of you. In my statement, I assumed you were educated enough to KNOW the fact I quoted, and I was just REMINDING you of that well known fact. Since I began to have doubts about your academic standing (and logic) I gave you the impressive sources you could contact, i.e. the profs, in case you were ignorant. That way YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO TAKE MY WORD FOR IT. Geddit ???

Avatar stated: However, if these so called great minds are saying that, I would say that they are probably correct. They cannot prove God exists. But thankfully God is greater than the so called greatest minds in reality and can prove He exists to anyone. And He does reveal himself to those that seek Him as He asked.

My response: There is something BASIC that you can't seem to grasp: The whole discussion is about whether YOUR GOD EXISTS. LOGICALLY, you cannot prove that by simply relying on the assertions that "HE EXISTS" and "ASK HIM" ..... when it is NOT established that YOUR GOD EXISTS. And, the person you're trying to prove of YOUR GOD'S EXISTENCE, does NOT get an ANSWER FROM YOUR NON-EXISTENT GOD !!!

It's comparable to my saying to you : "believe in my God .... my God is the FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER ( with a noodle-like appendage). I don't understand why you don't believe in my FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER because all you have to do is ASK this FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER" and he will tell you !!!!!

In this paragraph ( and practically all your other paragraphs) you are committing the most GLARING and FUNDAMENTAL ERROR IN LOGIC: You take what you are SUPPOSED to prove and use that very thing as proof.

Since you keep on replicating that FUNDAMENTAL ERROR throughout your paragraphs, I'll explain it to you so that even if you were a lobotomized retarded 4 yr old, you could STILL understand it. Thus, take a deep breath and THINK: If you are supposed to prove that the BIBLE is the word of God to a person who does not accept the Bible as the word of God then you cannot QUOTE THE BIBLE as the utterances of God.

What you do throughout your post is USE YOURSELF AS THE AUTHORITY TO TRY TO PROVE YOUR OWN ASSERTIONS !!!

I'll make it even simpler for you to understand: YOU ARE SAYING, AND OFFERING AS PROOF THE FOLLOWING: "BELIEVE ME BECAUSE I'M TELLING YOU TO BELIEVE ME !!!"

Final note: IMO, you are not educated enough to pursue this discussion. Also, you have a fundamental flaw in your logic that you can't seem to overcome.

Sorry, but I'll have to move on. Further discussion with you on this topic .... and probably other topics will be fruitless.

 

[JBeukema]

Gautama understands nothing of (FS)M

 

[editec]

MY CREATOR

PART TWO

The only other version of a CREATOR that made sense to me, the version that fits the REALITY on Earth, the belief where one doesn't have to believe bizarro events i.e., such things as Uncle Harry being dead, suddenly arising from the dead, and is scarfing a hamburger at Burger King's around the corner, or "A" = NOT "A", etc is.............that the CREATOR is simply the SUM TOTAL OF ALL THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE.

WHAT ARE THE FACTS ??? WHAT IS EVERYDAY REALITY ???

Answer: When humans die they turn into fertilizer.....no different than a dog, a cockroach, etc.

And the idiotic delusion that PRAYERS somehow MIRACULOUSLY changes REALITY to satisfy the selfish wishes of someone who dutifully grovelled to a RELGIOUS GOD is not only delusional...it really verges on either gross STUPIDITY or INSANITY.....when considering the REALITY of the results of one's prayers. Statistically, one gets the identically same results from praying to the nearest rock in your garden !!!

Prayers to the ULTIMATE LAWS OF NATURE is like praying to the LIGHTNING, exhorting it to not strike you.

Guess what ? To my utter amazement, my conclusions, prior to any info about either Einstein's or Spinoza's on this topic, were almost identical to Einstein's. And, Einstein's God was Spinoza's God. Both of them reached the almost identical conclusion.

Yeah you, Einstein, Spinoza and hundreds of millions of us would be my guess.

It is the anthropomorphism of GOD that I find somewhat amusing.

Our tiny little minds attempt to imagine what a GOD is like and the best we can come up with is basically something very human like only with super powers.

The notion that there is a GOD which thinks remotely like we think has always struck me as rather goofy.

 

[gautama]

Gautama understands nothing of (FS)M

JBeukema,

The Humble Gautama gratefully accepts your assertion that he is as ignorant of the FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER ( FSM) (and its heavenly ways) as ALL the posters in this Universe and beyond, are about their non-existent Gods in the Organized Religions of the World. IOW, I know zippo, nada, zilch about the exotic and esoteric super duper God of all Gods...FSM.

As one who is willing to learn and begin to know the unknowable (an impossibility, really), Your Humble Gautama, is willing to open his mind (last known to be the size of the largest asteroid flopping about somewhere in the Universe) and heart (last known to be the size of a shrivelled up nanogram of nothing) to the esoteric mysteries of the Heavenly FSM ..... unlike the braindead members (as asserted by the dastardly and equally myopic atheists)
of the various cults in the Organized Religions of the World.

Please enlighten me, O GREAT ENLIGHTENED ONE {known and revered (hither and thither)} as the EXALTED JBeukema, regarding the most sacred aspect of the Heavenly FSM. Obviously, I am referring to FSM's (may his name be praised) wondrous "NOODLE-LIKE APPENDAGE" !!!!!

IS IT FOR REAL ?????

HAS THIS WONDROUS NOODLE-LIKE APPENDAGE SEEN ANY ACTION ???

DID IT, USING ITS WONDROUS HEAVENLY POWERS, CREATE ANY ADDITIONAL VIRGIN MOTHERS, SO THAT WE WHO YEARN FOR ENLIGHTENMENT, CAN WORSHIP WITH BRAINDEAD ADULATION LITTLE FSMS DISGUISED AS HUMAN BEINGS SPOUTING WHATEVER AND WHEREVER UNTIL THEY EVAPORATE LIKE THE MORNING DEW.....WITH NARY A PROOF OF THEIR HEAVENLY CONNECTION ?????

Please .... I promise not to eat, sleep, urinate or even defecate ..... until I hear from you !!!

 

[gautama]

MY CREATOR

PART TWO

The only other version of a CREATOR that made sense to me, the version that fits the REALITY on Earth, the belief where one doesn't have to believe bizarro events i.e., such things as Uncle Harry being dead, suddenly arising from the dead, and is scarfing a hamburger at Burger King's around the corner, or "A" = NOT "A", etc is.............that the CREATOR is simply the SUM TOTAL OF ALL THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE.

WHAT ARE THE FACTS ??? WHAT IS EVERYDAY REALITY ???

Answer: When humans die they turn into fertilizer.....no different than a dog, a cockroach, etc.

And the idiotic delusion that PRAYERS somehow MIRACULOUSLY changes REALITY to satisfy the selfish wishes of someone who dutifully grovelled to a RELGIOUS GOD is not only delusional...it really verges on either gross STUPIDITY or INSANITY.....when considering the REALITY of the results of one's prayers. Statistically, one gets the identically same results from praying to the nearest rock in your garden !!!

Prayers to the ULTIMATE LAWS OF NATURE is like praying to the LIGHTNING, exhorting it to not strike you.

Guess what ? To my utter amazement, my conclusions, prior to any info about either Einstein's or Spinoza's on this topic, were almost identical to Einstein's. And, Einstein's God was Spinoza's God. Both of them reached the almost identical conclusion.

Yeah you, Einstein, Spinoza and hundreds of millions of us would be my guess.

It is the anthropomorphism of GOD that I find somewhat amusing.

Our tiny little minds attempt to imagine what a GOD is like and the best we can come up with is basically something very human like only with super powers.

The notion that there is a GOD which thinks remotely like we think has always struck me as rather goofy.

Editec,

Good on you, the Heavenly FSM be praised.

It's pleasant to know that I'm not the proverbial voice in the wilderness.

 

[editec]

MY CREATOR

PART TWO

The only other version of a CREATOR that made sense to me, the version that fits the REALITY on Earth, the belief where one doesn't have to believe bizarro events i.e., such things as Uncle Harry being dead, suddenly arising from the dead, and is scarfing a hamburger at Burger King's around the corner, or "A" = NOT "A", etc is.............that the CREATOR is simply the SUM TOTAL OF ALL THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE.

WHAT ARE THE FACTS ??? WHAT IS EVERYDAY REALITY ???

Answer: When humans die they turn into fertilizer.....no different than a dog, a cockroach, etc.

And the idiotic delusion that PRAYERS somehow MIRACULOUSLY changes REALITY to satisfy the selfish wishes of someone who dutifully grovelled to a RELGIOUS GOD is not only delusional...it really verges on either gross STUPIDITY or INSANITY.....when considering the REALITY of the results of one's prayers. Statistically, one gets the identically same results from praying to the nearest rock in your garden !!!

Prayers to the ULTIMATE LAWS OF NATURE is like praying to the LIGHTNING, exhorting it to not strike you.

Guess what ? To my utter amazement, my conclusions, prior to any info about either Einstein's or Spinoza's on this topic, were almost identical to Einstein's. And, Einstein's God was Spinoza's God. Both of them reached the almost identical conclusion.

Yeah you, Einstein, Spinoza and hundreds of millions of us would be my guess.

It is the anthropomorphism of GOD that I find somewhat amusing.

Our tiny little minds attempt to imagine what a GOD is like and the best we can come up with is basically something very human like only with super powers.

The notion that there is a GOD which thinks remotely like we think has always struck me as rather goofy.

Editec,

Good on you, the Heavenly FSM be praised.

It's pleasant to know that I'm not the proverbial voice in the wilderness.

Of course you're not alone, Guatama.

Anybody with a lick of creative imaginative sense understands that if an entity that is the omnipresent and omnipotent, indeed one that is the author of existence exists it wouldn't REMOTELY behave in the way that most organized religion portray it.

The anthropormorphized GOD is a fairy tale that some of us tell ourselves because we lack the capacity to imagine the enormity of the cosmos.

One certainly doesn't have to be an atheist to understand that.

God, as packaged and sold by organized religions, is a metaphor dumbed down to sell to the children.

 

[gautama]

Editec stated:"Of course you're not alone, Guatama.

Anybody with a lick of creative imaginative sense understands that if an entity that is the omnipresent and omnipotent, indeed one that is the author of existence exists it wouldn't REMOTELY behave in the way that most organized religion portray it.

The anthropormorphized GOD is a fairy tale that some of us tell ourselves because we lack the capacity to imagine the enormity of the cosmos.

One certainly doesn't have to be an atheist to understand that.

God, as packaged and sold by organized religions, is a metaphor dumbed down to sell to the children."

My response to Editec:

When I said that I was pleasantly surprised not to be "the voice in the wilderness" I, admittedly, did not make myself clear in that I am well aware of the fact that probably some 5% (?) of Americans are Atheists, and another 5 % (?) Agnostics that lean in favour of Atheism. My guess is that there are 25-30 % Agnostics that lean in favour of the Organized Religion fantasy. With approx 60 % of Americans that are in the DEVOUTLY RELIGIOUS category, i.e. sunday church, mosque, synagogue etc., goers.

So, when I said that I was surprised about being the "voice in the wilderness" I meant that when you listed yourself in that category of those that believe in Einstein's or Spinoza's version of the Creator .... THAT CATEGORY was esoteric. And, I respectfully disagree with your estimate that there are many millions of us.

As to the reason why some 80-85% (?) of Americans are in the "RELIGIOUS" category: my considered opinion is that RELIGION (the carrot and the stick), was a device that might have originally been used by leaders, or wise men to control their minions. No doubt the "GOD" that was created by the wise men, or the leaders was THEIR stooge who had SUPERNATURAL POWERS .....ALWAYS supporting the Wise Leader, as the wise leader's omnipresent ally.

With time, stories, and fantasies this "GOD" took on a life of its own.

Why do so many godzillions of people have, what some may think to be a braindead, robotic, belief in UNREALISTIC, FANTASY-LADEN NONSENSE ????

Answer: Because of the "CARROT" and the "STICK"

The "CARROT" being that "GOD" rewards the "GOOD" things that people in a society do. To wit, some would say that the CARROT with the Christians is getting, for an ETERNITY, multiple orgasms strumming a harp, basking in the glory of De Lawd. ISLAM, some would say.... is more specific about its eternal rewards: The "CARROT" is lounging around smoking hash, being splashed with myrrh, taking dips in vats of honey.....and boinking the promised 72 virgins, of course. I am not sure what the buddhists and/or hindus do. The best I can come up with is that the "CARROT" to them means an Eternity of fasting: eating grass and pebbles in a cross-legged position, trying to achieve the status of a PERFECT ZERO.....and achieving it. Not much fun, i'm afraid.....but then I might be wrong about their "CARROT".

The "STICK" is the easy one. "EASY" in the sense that, to my knowledge, ALL the Organized Religions of the World prescribe BURNING IN HELL.....with time out for getting the Spanish Inquisition jollies. Or, in the case of the Taliban, or Al Queda: the chopping off of one's limbs: fingers, one at a time...then toes...hands....legs....and so on until one becomes something like a Third Base in Baseball moments before the final Head chop. SCARY INDEED..... and these Islamofascist PSYCHOS are not waiting for the "after-life" to practice their devotion to Allah. These Islamofascist Swine do this here and now. That's why the Al Queda and the Taliban are so successful in controlling its lemmings.

Saddam Hussein basically used the same fun games to amuse himself.

The Libs, who fancy themselves as the SENSITIVE SAVIOURS of MANKIND, especially when championing the cause of saving the "DIGNITY" and SELF-ESTEEM" of the Al Queda Terrorists in Abu Ghraib by massed courtmartials of those in our military. The military who witnessed the gore perpetrated by this and similar slime first hand.... and DARED to butt-slap some of these scumbags while they were naked....and WOW !!!! Get this: Supposedly, the Bush Adm WATERBOARDED a couple more than the THREE KNOWN Al Queda Honchos that saved an untold number of American Lives.......These LIB HEROES OF HUMANITY.....THE DARLINGS, THE IDOLS OF OBAMA......didn't give a hoot when Bush eliminated the Baghdad Psycho in TWENTY - TWO DAYS with none of our boys killed....and a MINIMUM of collateral damage possible to IRAQ as compared to any comparable war in the History of Mankind. Not only didn't these Liberal Sweethearts not praise Bush.....they hounded and EMASCULATED the Bush Adm for not only saving literally MILLIONS of Moslems from Saddam's TORTURES and MURDERS....but preventing the Baghdad Monster from acquiring Nuclear weapons.......Nuclear Weapons that Obama will surely award the IRANIAN WHACKJOBS !!!!

Oh, the IRAQI QUAGMIRE ?!?!? Which continued all these years ???? I wonder WHY THAT HAPPENED ?!?!? Hmmmmmmm..... lets see: Clinton and ~99% of the Hypocritical and Treacherous CONGRESSIONAL Dems (yep, Pelosi, Reid, the Chappaquidick Murderer, Kerry, etc)....ALL of these beauties voted for the violent removal of the Baghdad Psycho.....but, instead just sat on their thumbs. However,they sure did a lot of whining, yowling and howling about it.

Dubya, agreed with them. And using the IDENTICAL RHETORIC of these Hypocritical and Treacherous Dems INCUDING THE IDENTICAL WMD VERBIAGE USED BY THE DEMS PRIOR TO BUSH'S ASTOUNDING VICTORY eliminated the Baghdad Psycho. BTW, and ALL the Intelligence Agencies of ALL the Major Powers (except China): Germany, France, Russia, etc.....including our CIA under Clinton....stated that The Baghdad Maniac had WMDs.

BUT.......the Hypocritical and Treacherous Dems realized that they had a ZERO CHANCE of winning the upcoming elections, HENCE these Hypocritical and Treacherous Dems turned the FULL FORCE of their 24/7 Lib Controllled National Media attacking Bush for EVERY MINOR glitch in Iraq thus sending a LOUD and CLEAR message to IRAN and the Islomofascist Swine that the MORE the Iranians and the Islamofascists cause problems for Bush.....the MORE SUPPORT the Dems will give them. Never mind if their nefarious deeds caused the three-four thousand deaths of our boys. WINNING ELECTIONS IS EVERYTHING.

YEP.....The WONDERFUL DEMS......GOD BLESS "EM.....and GOD BLESS the LIb Engineered win of this Charming Marxist/Commie Political Charlatan OBAMA !!!

Oh, BTW......Obama's stooge NAPOLITANO, the head of Home Security OUTLAWED the use of the word TERRORIST as applied to the Islamofascist scum such as the Taliban, Al Queda, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc.

But, Napolitano and her Congressional Stooge Alcee Hastings ( an ex-impeached judge) have anounced on national TV that our Tea-Baggers are potential TERRORISTS. And, that liberal idiot Alcee Hastings has legislation pending in Congress to place our Tea-baggers into DETENTION centers.

I doubt that this CRAP will be approved by the Congress.....but still.

Oh, for those who are not aware....the Nazi Gestapo originally used the term DETENTION CENTERS for their victims until these DETENTION CENTERS turned into CONCENTRATION CAMPS !!!