Muslims are our friends but Islam is the enemy of Western Civilization?

[Foxfyre]

You guys can get mad at me but I really don't think anyone should take the Bible or the Quran literally and look to it everyday for instruction.

Not being Muslim I won't presume to speak for the Qu-ran as to its literal intent; however Sunniman has explicitly said that Muslims read it literally with the presumption that it has the same meaning for all.

I know of no Jewish or Christian scholars who would make that claim for all the manuscripts Christians now refer to as the Old and New Testaments--and for some the Apocrypha--that make up the Bible used by Christians.

Within those manuscripts are metaphor, allegory, parable, artistic imagery, poetry, creative explanations for this or that, history, teachings/instruction, law and prophecy. Each can be taken literally for what it was then or as the perception of those who wrote down the words. It is a look into the hearts, minds, thinking, culture, and experience of ancient peoples and there are few passages of the Bible that do not contain myriad concepts and imagery.

The ancient Jews who selected the Old Testament manuscripts to include; and the ancient Christians who selected the New Testament manuscripts to include did a brilliant job. The process of editing it all together was possibly not as brilliant and sometimes contributes to confusion, but careful scholarship sorts most of that out.

I think the main thing to know about the Bible is that it was written through the prism of experience, language, and culture of the people who wrote down the words. They weren't thinking about how different the experience, language, and culture of the people would be in the 21st century. So to understand the Bible, you have to read it through the eyes of those who wrote it. Try to interpret it only with 20th and 21st century experience and language, and I think most people will probably get a lot of it wrong.

 

[High_Gravity]

You guys can get mad at me but I really don't think anyone should take the Bible or the Quran literally and look to it everyday for instruction.

I believe that deep down inside every one of us is the understanding of right and wrong.

This is where our everyday instruction regarding our involvement with others is birthed. Culture and religions notwithstanding, it is our personal choice on how to treat other people.

That's what we will be judged on. Our choices. I have fought for Israel. I have killed for Israel.

NO human being knows whether it was right or wrong for me personally. I do know this, it feels wrong to kill.

I can put it no other way. Even if necessary, it feels wrong. I have tasted the odour of death. It is a sickening thing, whether Jew or Arab.

So, calling for the end of a people is a choice. A personal choice. Now others can put that personal choice as an attachment to other things, but the end result is that the personal choice remains.

And I will (I believe) be judged. There are those who enjoy killing. I have met some of them. Jews and Arabs.

They are separated (by choice) from their connection to G-d. It is not a thing to enjoy and those who call for the expulsion of a people are lost to humanity.

Why would I get mad at you for your view? It is arguable and understandable. Death in great numbers has been laid at the feet of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Your stand is too arguable for me to disagree with as a personal choice.

Thats the thing, I believe it should be a personal choice of how people interpret their beliefs however I don't think you can take the Bible too literally or the Quran. In the Bible I read somewhere where it says people who commit adultry should be stoned to death, which is ridiculous. If people were to follow the Bible like that we would end up with a country no different from Pakistan or Yemen.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Model Behavior of the Prophet (Kitab Al-Sunnah)
Dawud :: Book 40 : Hadith 4590
Narrated Irbad ibn Sariyah:

AbdurRahman ibn Amr as-Sulami and Hujr ibn Hujr said: We came to Irbad ibn Sariyah who was among those about whom the following verse was revealed: "Nor (is there blame) on those who come to thee to be provided with mounts, and when thou saidst: "I can find no mounts for you."

We greeted him and said: We have come to see you to give healing and obtain benefit from you.

Al-Irbad said: One day the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) led us in prayer, then faced us and gave us a lengthy exhortation at which the eyes shed tears and the hearts were afraid.

A man said: Apostle of Allah! It seems as if it were a farewell exhortation, so what injunction do you give us?

He then said: I enjoin you to fear Allah, and to hear and obey even if it be an Abyssinian slave, for those of you who live after me will see great disagreement. You must then follow my sunnah and that of the rightly-guided caliphs. Hold to it and stick fast to it. Avoid novelties, for every novelty is an innovation, and every innovation is an error.

 

[Foxfyre]

Mr. Fitnuts why didn't you inform the readers here that the muslim man you are quoting, Al-Ghazali, lived almost a thousand years ago?

It was a different time and different culture in which he lived.

Heck, I can google up Jewish and Christian scholars from the same time period who basically wrote equally harsh things about each other.

Well if the Qu'ran is read literally--i.e.all reading with the same interpretation--as you say, and it is perfectly obvious to all who read it, then would it not be the same Qu-ran written 1400 years ago? And are there not passages in the same Qu-ran that support what that fellow 1000 years ago wrote? If I can take the Qu'ran literally as you say, then is there not plenty of license there authorizing you to kill and/or take from me, an unbelieving infidel? Will you not be rewarded by Allah if you do?

I always think it best to know the answer before asking the question interesting enough we revisit Al Ghazali who was just mentioned.

Al-Ghazali doors ijtihad - Google Search

Fascinating information in that link Mr. Fitnah, and if it is verifiable--it looks pretty well put together at first blush--it definitely added to my education re Islam.

 

[High_Gravity]

You guys can get mad at me but I really don't think anyone should take the Bible or the Quran literally and look to it everyday for instruction.

Not being Muslim I won't presume to speak for the Qu-ran as to its literal intent; however Sunniman has explicitly said that Muslims read it literally with the presumption that it has the same meaning for all.

I know of no Jewish or Christian scholars who would make that claim for all the manuscripts Christians now refer to as the Old and New Testaments--and for some the Apocrypha--that make up the Bible used by Christians.

Within those manuscripts are metaphor, allegory, parable, artistic imagery, poetry, creative explanations for this or that, history, teachings/instruction, law and prophecy. Each can be taken literally for what it was then or as the perception of those who wrote down the words. It is a look into the hearts, minds, thinking, culture, and experience of ancient peoples and there are few passages of the Bible that do not contain myriad concepts and imagery.

The ancient Jews who selected the Old Testament manuscripts to include; and the ancient Christians who selected the New Testament manuscripts to include did a brilliant job. The process of editing it all together was possibly not as brilliant and sometimes contributes to confusion, but careful scholarship sorts most of that out.

I think the main thing to know about the Bible is that it was written through the prism of experience, language, and culture of the people who wrote down the words. They weren't thinking about how different the experience, language, and culture of the people would be in the 21st century. So to understand the Bible, you have to read it through the eyes of those who wrote it. Try to interpret it only with 20th and 21st century experience and language, and I think most people will probably get a lot of it wrong.

I agree 100%, the Bible and Quran were written long ago and the way people interpret now will be different than the people who were actually around the time it was written. Its just when I see people in Pakistan getting slaughtered for blasphemy and a man who converted to Christianity in Afghanistan face the death penalty, it really shows me how bad things can get when people look to their Holy Book to deal with every situation.

 

[Foxfyre]

You guys can get mad at me but I really don't think anyone should take the Bible or the Quran literally and look to it everyday for instruction.

Not being Muslim I won't presume to speak for the Qu-ran as to its literal intent; however Sunniman has explicitly said that Muslims read it literally with the presumption that it has the same meaning for all.

I know of no Jewish or Christian scholars who would make that claim for all the manuscripts Christians now refer to as the Old and New Testaments--and for some the Apocrypha--that make up the Bible used by Christians.

Within those manuscripts are metaphor, allegory, parable, artistic imagery, poetry, creative explanations for this or that, history, teachings/instruction, law and prophecy. Each can be taken literally for what it was then or as the perception of those who wrote down the words. It is a look into the hearts, minds, thinking, culture, and experience of ancient peoples and there are few passages of the Bible that do not contain myriad concepts and imagery.

The ancient Jews who selected the Old Testament manuscripts to include; and the ancient Christians who selected the New Testament manuscripts to include did a brilliant job. The process of editing it all together was possibly not as brilliant and sometimes contributes to confusion, but careful scholarship sorts most of that out.

I think the main thing to know about the Bible is that it was written through the prism of experience, language, and culture of the people who wrote down the words. They weren't thinking about how different the experience, language, and culture of the people would be in the 21st century. So to understand the Bible, you have to read it through the eyes of those who wrote it. Try to interpret it only with 20th and 21st century experience and language, and I think most people will probably get a lot of it wrong.

I agree 100%, the Bible and Quran were written long ago and the way people interpret now will be different than the people who were actually around the time it was written. Its just when I see people in Pakistan getting slaughtered for blasphemy and a man who converted to Christianity in Afghanistan face the death penalty, it really shows me how bad things can get when people look to their Holy Book to deal with every situation.

I can only say Amen to that. I suppose even those idiots at Westboro Baptist Church think they are honoring God with their hateful and indefensible activities while most Christians denounce and condemn the same activities and see them as not at all Godly and not at all Christian. Yet I'm sure the Westboro Baptists could find a passage or two somewhere in the Bible that would seem to support what they are doing. They would have to ignore a wagon load of other scripture that would not support it however.

It all has to be taken within its full context, including the evolvement of understanding in the people of God over the centuries, and, as I said, be read through their eyes, in order for us to discern its usefulness for us here and now. I personally think prophecy and leading of the Spirit is still happening, and were we to write down our perceptions of our experience with that it would look VERY mystical and religious. But then who knows? Maybe Scripture is still being written and four or five thousand years from now some visitors to Earth will happen upon those manuscripts and add them to the Book?????

Okay I'm really getting off in left field here. But the bottom line for anybody these days is what do we really believe about God? About Christ? About Allah? Or any other matters of faith? I think Jews and Christians will fully articulate their modern perceptions and beliefs. I am finding that most Muslims will not.

 

[Sunni Man]

It's very simple.

Christians and Jews don't follow what the Torah/Bible says about many issues.

Adhering to the verses they like; and ignoring those they personally disagree with.


Whereas, Muslims believe that every verse of the Quran is God's word and must be followed without exception.

 

[Foxfyre]

It's very simple.

Christians and Jews don't follow what the Torah/Bible says about many issues.

Adhering to the verses they like; and ignoring those they personally disagree with.


Whereas, Muslims believe that every verse of the Quran is God's word and must be followed without exception.

Which brings me back to the question you ducked. If you take every verse of the Qu'ran as God's word to be followed without exception, then you would be justified and even rewarded for killing Ropey, High Gravity, me, et al as infidels who do not subscribe to the teachings and edicts of Islam?

Or if we did not resist, you would be following the teachings of Islam by requiring us to respect and obey Allah?

That after all is the basic summation of the thesis of this thread. That Islam, given opportunity to do so, is required to destroy Western civilization and put it under the authority of Allah.

 

[Sunni Man]

Which brings me back to the question you ducked. If you take every verse of the Qu'ran as God's word to be followed without exception, then you would be justified and even rewarded for killing Ropey, High Gravity, me, et al as infidels who do not subscribe to the teachings and edicts of Islam?

I didn't duck any question that I am aware of.


Pure nonsense.

We are not at war.

There is No scripture in the Quran that would reward me for killing any of you.

Where do you come up with this stuff??

 

[High_Gravity]

Not being Muslim I won't presume to speak for the Qu-ran as to its literal intent; however Sunniman has explicitly said that Muslims read it literally with the presumption that it has the same meaning for all.

I know of no Jewish or Christian scholars who would make that claim for all the manuscripts Christians now refer to as the Old and New Testaments--and for some the Apocrypha--that make up the Bible used by Christians.

Within those manuscripts are metaphor, allegory, parable, artistic imagery, poetry, creative explanations for this or that, history, teachings/instruction, law and prophecy. Each can be taken literally for what it was then or as the perception of those who wrote down the words. It is a look into the hearts, minds, thinking, culture, and experience of ancient peoples and there are few passages of the Bible that do not contain myriad concepts and imagery.

The ancient Jews who selected the Old Testament manuscripts to include; and the ancient Christians who selected the New Testament manuscripts to include did a brilliant job. The process of editing it all together was possibly not as brilliant and sometimes contributes to confusion, but careful scholarship sorts most of that out.

I think the main thing to know about the Bible is that it was written through the prism of experience, language, and culture of the people who wrote down the words. They weren't thinking about how different the experience, language, and culture of the people would be in the 21st century. So to understand the Bible, you have to read it through the eyes of those who wrote it. Try to interpret it only with 20th and 21st century experience and language, and I think most people will probably get a lot of it wrong.

I agree 100%, the Bible and Quran were written long ago and the way people interpret now will be different than the people who were actually around the time it was written. Its just when I see people in Pakistan getting slaughtered for blasphemy and a man who converted to Christianity in Afghanistan face the death penalty, it really shows me how bad things can get when people look to their Holy Book to deal with every situation.

I can only say Amen to that. I suppose even those idiots at Westboro Baptist Church think they are honoring God with their hateful and indefensible activities while most Christians denounce and condemn the same activities and see them as not at all Godly and not at all Christian. Yet I'm sure the Westboro Baptists could find a passage or two somewhere in the Bible that would seem to support what they are doing. They would have to ignore a wagon load of other scripture that would not support it however.

It all has to be taken within its full context, including the evolvement of understanding in the people of God over the centuries, and, as I said, be read through their eyes, in order for us to discern its usefulness for us here and now. I personally think prophecy and leading of the Spirit is still happening, and were we to write down our perceptions of our experience with that it would look VERY mystical and religious. But then who knows? Maybe Scripture is still being written and four or five thousand years from now some visitors to Earth will happen upon those manuscripts and add them to the Book?????

Okay I'm really getting off in left field here. But the bottom line for anybody these days is what do we really believe about God? About Christ? About Allah? Or any other matters of faith? I think Jews and Christians will fully articulate their modern perceptions and beliefs. I am finding that most Muslims will not.

The Westboro Baptist Church is sick, how can any sane person tell me God is proud of them for protesting at the funerals of dead soldiers? Maybe I'm wrong but I think going to the Bible or to the Quran for everything in your daily life is too restrictive. I am not a perfect person I have sinned, I drink, I had sex with a married woman when I was single, and when I was married I also had an affair with another woman. Many Christians criticized me for my choices, am I going to hell for this? its gods choice, not theirs!

 

[High_Gravity]

Which brings me back to the question you ducked. If you take every verse of the Qu'ran as God's word to be followed without exception, then you would be justified and even rewarded for killing Ropey, High Gravity, me, et al as infidels who do not subscribe to the teachings and edicts of Islam?

I didn't duck any question that I am aware of.


Pure nonsense.

We are not at war.

There is No scripture in the Quran that would reward me for killing any of you.
Where do you come up with this stuff??

I hope not Sunni, I thought we got along ok here.

 

[Sunni Man]

That after all is the basic summation of the thesis of this thread. That Islam, given opportunity to do so, is required to destroy Western civilization and put it under the authority of Allah.

Even if the population of America became Islamic.

Exactly how would that "destroy" Western civilization??

 

[Foxfyre]

Which brings me back to the question you ducked. If you take every verse of the Qu'ran as God's word to be followed without exception, then you would be justified and even rewarded for killing Ropey, High Gravity, me, et al as infidels who do not subscribe to the teachings and edicts of Islam?

I didn't duck any question that I am aware of.


Pure nonsense.

We are not at war.

There is No scripture in the Quran that would reward me for killing any of you.

Where do you come up with this stuff??

From you just yesterday when you supported those who bomb, kill, behead, or punish somebody because he 'insulted' Mohammed or Allah. I believe you referred to us Christians as 'wimps' because we did not do the same.

And you ignored the second part of the question which was: "Or if we did not resist, you would be following the teachings of Islam by requiring us to respect and obey Allah?"

and

"That after all is the basic summation of the thesis of this thread. That Islam, given opportunity to do so, is required to destroy Western civilization and put it under the authority of Allah."

Please cite the specific passage of the Qu'ran, included among all the Qu'ran, that would make that last statement in error.

 

[High_Gravity]

Which brings me back to the question you ducked. If you take every verse of the Qu'ran as God's word to be followed without exception, then you would be justified and even rewarded for killing Ropey, High Gravity, me, et al as infidels who do not subscribe to the teachings and edicts of Islam?

I didn't duck any question that I am aware of.


Pure nonsense.

We are not at war.

There is No scripture in the Quran that would reward me for killing any of you.

Where do you come up with this stuff??

From you just yesterday when you supported those who bomb, kill, behead, or punish somebody because he 'insulted' Mohammed or Allah. I believe you referred to us Christians as 'wimps' because we did not do the same.

And you ignored the second part of the question which was: "Or if we did not resist, you would be following the teachings of Islam by requiring us to respect and obey Allah?"

and

"That after all is the basic summation of the thesis of this thread. That Islam, given opportunity to do so, is required to destroy Western civilization and put it under the authority of Allah."

Please cite the specific passage of the Qu'ran, included among all the Qu'ran, that would make that last statement in error.

I guess this is where we are different, I won't kill someone who insults Christians or Jesus.

 

[Foxfyre]

I didn't duck any question that I am aware of.


Pure nonsense.

We are not at war.

There is No scripture in the Quran that would reward me for killing any of you.

Where do you come up with this stuff??

From you just yesterday when you supported those who bomb, kill, behead, or punish somebody because he 'insulted' Mohammed or Allah. I believe you referred to us Christians as 'wimps' because we did not do the same.

And you ignored the second part of the question which was: "Or if we did not resist, you would be following the teachings of Islam by requiring us to respect and obey Allah?"

and

"That after all is the basic summation of the thesis of this thread. That Islam, given opportunity to do so, is required to destroy Western civilization and put it under the authority of Allah."

Please cite the specific passage of the Qu'ran, included among all the Qu'ran, that would make that last statement in error.

I guess this is where we are different, I won't kill someone who insults Christians or Jesus.

And I believe you would not have any problem with Muslims displaying their crescent moon and star, displaying an Islamic name on a highly visible mosque, or distributing pamphlets or otherwise inviting folks to come to the mosque. The Jewish synagogue would be a welcome addition to almost any community. A Buddhist temple would be a-okay. Live and let live. That is the common Christian way almost everywhere. Also the usual Jewish way or Buddhist way.

But in almost all Islamic countries you would not be able to display a Christian cross, put a Christian name on a church, or use ANY means to invite non-Christian folks to come to church. The Star of David would likely be even more forbidden.

And it is difficult to think the same would not be the case if Muslims gained a significant majority in the UK or France or Belgium or the USA.

I'm still waiting for Sunniman or any of our Muslim friends to dispute that.

I feel no animosity for Sunniman nor any other Muslims, but nobody has given me ANY reason yet to think that Islam is not a threat to Western Civilization as we know it.

 

[Sunni Man]

And you ignored the second part of the question which was: "Or if we did not resist, you would be following the teachings of Islam by requiring us to respect and obey Allah?"

Both Christians and Jews are called "People of the Book" (Bible) in the Quran.

We are to respect them as such; and expect them to do the same.

Verse 2:256 in the Quran says that no one is to be forced to change their religion.

So no, Christians and Jews are not expected to obey Allah.

Qur'an 2:256—"There is no compulsion in religion";

 

[Foxfyre]

And you ignored the second part of the question which was: "Or if we did not resist, you would be following the teachings of Islam by requiring us to respect and obey Allah?"

Both Christians and Jews are called "People of the Book" (Bible) in the Quran.

We are to respect them as such; and expect them to do the same.

Verse 2:256 in the Quran says that no one is to be forced to change their religion.

So no, Christians and Jews are not expected to obey Allah.

Qur'an 2:256—"There is no compulsion in religion";

So you are saying that in most predominantly Islamic countries I can open a church, put a cross and sign on it, and invite all the neighbors to come?

 

[High_Gravity]

From you just yesterday when you supported those who bomb, kill, behead, or punish somebody because he 'insulted' Mohammed or Allah. I believe you referred to us Christians as 'wimps' because we did not do the same.

And you ignored the second part of the question which was: "Or if we did not resist, you would be following the teachings of Islam by requiring us to respect and obey Allah?"

and

"That after all is the basic summation of the thesis of this thread. That Islam, given opportunity to do so, is required to destroy Western civilization and put it under the authority of Allah."

Please cite the specific passage of the Qu'ran, included among all the Qu'ran, that would make that last statement in error.

I guess this is where we are different, I won't kill someone who insults Christians or Jesus.

And I believe you would not have any problem with Muslims displaying their crescent moon and star, displaying an Islamic name on a highly visible mosque, or distributing pamphlets or otherwise inviting folks to come to the mosque. The Jewish synagogue would be a welcome addition to almost any community. A Buddhist temple would be a-okay. Live and let live. That is the common Christian way almost everywhere. Also the usual Jewish way or Buddhist way.

But in almost all Islamic countries you would not be able to display a Christian cross, put a Christian name on a church, or use ANY means to invite non-Christian folks to come to church. The Star of David would likely be even more forbidden.

And it is difficult to think the same would not be the case if Muslims gained a significant majority in the UK or France or Belgium or the USA.

I'm still waiting for Sunniman or any of our Muslim friends to dispute that.

I feel no animosity for Sunniman nor any other Muslims, but nobody has given me ANY reason yet to think that Islam is not a threat to Western Civilization as we know it.

Well it depends on what Islamic country you go to, in Syria and Lebanon they actually have large Christian populations and they have Churches, Lebanon used to be 80% Christian at 1 point. But in Saudi Arabia they have no Churches and it is illegal to display anything un Islamic, anyone caught practicing their faith in the presence of Muslims is arrested. Its that kind of intolerance that irks non Muslims and they don't want it. Christians definently have targets on their back in certain Muslim countries now, particularly in Iraq, Egypt, Nigeria and Pakistan. Too bad no high ranking Muslim scholar is speaking out against it. If Muslims were being slaughtered here in the States or in England all hell would be breaking loose.

 

[Sunni Man]

So you are saying that in most predominantly Islamic countries I can open a church, put a cross and sign on it, and invite all the neighbors to come?

Depends on the country.

Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, and others, have both Christian and Jewish houses of worship.

 

[High_Gravity]

So you are saying that in most predominantly Islamic countries I can open a church, put a cross and sign on it, and invite all the neighbors to come?

Depends on the country.

Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, and others, have both Christian and Jewish houses of worship.

Yes but in Egypt, Iraq and Pakistan Christians are being chased out into the streets and murdered. I wouldn't feel too safe as a Christian in those countries right now.