Muslims are our friends but Islam is the enemy of Western Civilization?

[Foxfyre]

During a panel discussion sponsored by the Hudson Institute last January, retired Army Lt. Colonel Allen West, who did combat duty in Iraq, responded to a Marine who asked the question, how do you answer people who say that terrorists are following a "warped" version of Islam? I was quite impressed with Lt. Col West’s grasp of history and understanding of the problem we are up against.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU5d30h1D_0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU5d30h1D_0[/ame]

This is not to say that every Muslim is our enemy. They are not.

This is not to say that every Muslim is focused on following the more militant content of the Qur’an, the Hadith, or Sufi texts. They aren’t.

This is not to say that many people of the Muslim faith have not been peace loving, model citizens, making significant contributions to society. They have been.

But at the risk of attracting still more wrath and abuse from the PC crowd and apologists for Islam, we cannot ignore that the national debate continues to focus on the effect of growing Muslim populations around the world. And that debate cotninues to include the broad intent of Islam to bring down western culture and values as most of us understand those. The ultimate goal of Islam is to place all cultures under total subjection to Allah and Shariah Law.

While some nations are less repressive than others, there is no country in the world in which Islam enjoys a majority that respects any understanding of unalienable rights, repects western culture, respects basic liberties, respects the free man's way of life.

It is the right of Islamic nations to order society as they want it. But to not maintain and enforce due vigilance to protect all the rights, freedoms, and culture that we hold dear is to invite the destruction of all.

 

[syrenn]

I agree.

 

[Ropey]

It is the right of Islamic nations to order society as they want it. But to not maintain and enforce due vigilance to protect all the rights, freedoms, and culture that we hold dear is to invite the destruction of all.

This is why we are here to vote.

 

[Foxfyre]

These kinds of discussions are always a sticky wicket for me. I have Muslim friends in real life and here on USMB whom I hold in high regard. It is increasingly difficult to draw the distinction between opposing an idea/ideal while not opposing those Muslim friends.

It isn't much different than respecting a person who advocates no restrictions on abortions while holding a pro life stance yourself. Or wanting to provide needed protections for gay friends and associates without destroying the traditional definition of marriage. Or embracing femininity while promoting equal opportunity in the work place. Or deploring PC while respecting persons.

All these dichotomies are part and parcel of the national debate.

The difference in the debate re the encroachment of Islam onto western civilization, however, is that if Islam wins, discussion is over. There will be no western civilization and no promotion of the culture and values within it that we hold dear.

 

[TheTraveller]

While some nations are less repressive than others, there is no country in the world in which Islam enjoys a majority that respects any understanding of unalienable rights, repects western culture, respects basic liberties, respects the free man's way of life.

The same was true of every Christian nation in the world 1000 years ago (even the idea of "western culture," whichis a modern notion). Christianity modernized. Why not Islam? Maybe you can think of a reason why Islam won't modernize; religions are different after all. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if contact with the Western world actually had the overall effect of moderating the extremism of Islam. It was much the same with the pagan Goths who overthrew Rome; before long they were all speaking Latin.

 

[Foxfyre]

While some nations are less repressive than others, there is no country in the world in which Islam enjoys a majority that respects any understanding of unalienable rights, repects western culture, respects basic liberties, respects the free man's way of life.

The same was true of every Christian nation in the world 1000 years ago (even the idea of "western culture," whichis a modern notion). Christianity modernized. Why not Islam? Maybe you can think of a reason why Islam won't modernize; religions are different after all. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if contact with the Western world actually had the overall effect of moderating the extremism of Islam. It was much the same with the pagan Goths who overthrew Rome; before long they were all speaking Latin.

It is true that the Christian leadership and the monarchs/feudal lords who exploited it were intolerant and at times militantly agreesive in enforcing their view of "Christian law" during Medieval times and even on a very small scale in the first decades of the New World. Some bad acts were committed by religious fanatics that I in no way believe were "Christian" but rather they were fundamentalist tyrants in conflict with Biblical Christian teachings. Most bad acts in Medieval times were committed for political purposes rather than religious ones. By instilling fear of loss of property, physical punishment, and/or excommunications, corrupt popes and monarchs enhanced their own power and personal fortunes by teaming up to keep the people in line. That worked for centuries.

The difference is that those popes and monarchs were not interested in conquering the entire world. They were looking to their own interests and weren't operating under some fanatical religious edict. The effect on the powerless was the same, but the scope of intent did not involved entire civilizations.

As for western civilization moderating the extremism of Islam, that isn't happening in the UK, in France, in Denmark et al where Muslims have achieved significant populations. The more influence populations of Muslims have, the more extremist they seem to become.

 

[TheTraveller]

Assuming this is the case - and I dont' know whether the current crop of Muslim immigrants into Europe has had long enough to assimilate, but, assuming you are correct about Islam - what is it about Islam as a religion, or Muslims as people, that makes the notion of modernization and moderation less feasible than it was for Christian civilization?

 

[Ropey]

Assuming this is the case - and I dont' know whether the current crop of Muslim immigrants into Europe has had long enough to assimilate, but, assuming you are correct about Islam - what is it about Islam as a religion, or Muslims as people, that makes the notion of modernization and moderation less feasible than it was for Christian civilization?

To my view? Nothing.

Islam is in the process of reformation. From without not within. It will be the Muslims outside of the Middle East who will reform Islam in the coming generations.

Just as it was outside of the Middle East where Judaism and Christianity found their reformative interpretations and they are also in a process of modernization.

They are just ahead of Islam at the moment and considering Islam is the youngest of the three Abraham religions, this makes sense.

We are simply a single generation in a multi-generational movement of humanity. We need to look at the historical perspective to gain a clearer view.

People are fearful that their way of life is going to change. Of course it is going to change. That's life and humanity, and Islam is part of that life and humanity. Just as all the other world's beliefs and platforms are part and parcel of the human approach.

I believe it will come and will modernize and will help us also modify and change in acceptance.

 

[AllieBaba]

It is the right of Islamic nations to order society as they want it. But to not maintain and enforce due vigilance to protect all the rights, freedoms, and culture that we hold dear is to invite the destruction of all.

This is why we are here to vote.

So long as you promote the destruction of the US, your votes will have little or no effect, and eventually you'll either be forcibly integrated or told to leave.

 

[AllieBaba]

Assuming this is the case - and I dont' know whether the current crop of Muslim immigrants into Europe has had long enough to assimilate, but, assuming you are correct about Islam - what is it about Islam as a religion, or Muslims as people, that makes the notion of modernization and moderation less feasible than it was for Christian civilization?

To my view? Nothing.

Islam is in the process of reformation. From without not within. It will be the Muslims outside of the Middle East who will reform Islam in the coming generations.

Just as it was outside of the Middle East where Judaism and Christianity found their reformative interpretations and they are also in a process of modernization.

They are just ahead of Islam at the moment and considering Islam is the youngest of the three Abraham religions, this makes sense.

We are simply a single generation in a multi-generational movement of humanity. We need to look at the historical perspective to gain a clearer view.

People are fearful that their way of life is going to change. Of course it is going to change. That's life and humanity, and Islam is part of that life and humanity. Just as all the other world's beliefs and platforms are part and parcel of the human approach.

I believe it will come and will modernize and will help us also modify and change in acceptance.

Islam is not generally considered part and parcel of "modernization", lol.

People are not afraid of change. They are afraid of death, and torture, and oppression, which all Islamic nations enjoy as a way of life.

 

[Ropey]

Islam is not generally considered part and parcel of "modernization", lol.

Neither was Judaism when the Hittites, Canaanites, etc. were being dealt with. Neither was Christianity during the multi-generational Crusades.

IPeople are not afraid of change. They are afraid of death, and torture, and oppression, which all Islamic nations enjoy as a way of life.

And well they should be for this is the strength that will bring about Islamic reformation from without, not within.

That's how change works and in the human regard, it is a multi and cross generational move...

 

[AllieBaba]

Unfortunately, history shows you to be putting out bullshit.

When countries become Islamized, they step backwards in time. As you know.

Islamization is the antithesis to everything American, and the enemy of freedom, liberty and life.

 

[AllieBaba]

Check out how advanced all these lucky countries are. They're all so enlightened and modern!

List of Muslim majority countries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[AllieBaba]

Well Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nigeria and Egypt are at the top of the list, lol.

Great examples of advanced civilization, modernization, and all that is great and wonderful about the Muslim concept of the way life should be.

 

[AllieBaba]

Next 5 Muslim countries which exemplify how much we should not fear the "change" that is wrought by Islam upon rich cultures:

Turkey, Iran, Sudan, Algeria, Afghanistan.

Next 5:
Morocco, Iraq, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia and Uzbekistan.

Shining examples of all that we should mimic!

 

[Foxfyre]

Allie makes good points though I know Ropey isn't Muslim.

Of course Islam may moderate and become more enlightened and inclusive of human liberties and freedoms just has Christianity has done that over the centures. Even Buddism had its militant side in its distant past.

But I think to capitulate and acquiesce to Islams demands and goals on the theory that sometime in the next millenium or so it will become more moderate and will no longer force its edicts upon people is a rather dangerous view. I for one don't want to wait a millenium or more to appreciate what I believe are unalienable rights and to exercise the freedoms that I enjoy.

 

[Blagger]

Unfortunately, history shows you to be putting out bullshit.

When countries become Islamized, they step backwards in time. As you know.

Islamization is the antithesis to everything American, and the enemy of freedom, liberty and life.

Whilst I've disagreed with Alliebaba in the past, this is something I know I can comment on with more authority than most here on USMB.

As you know, the UK and the other rich nations the liberal European Union depends upon to fund their multi-cultural utopia, have all seen an undeniable influx of immigration from Islamic states. Unlike other immirants from other parts of the world, the muslim immigrants are largely peasants from the armpits of Asia and Africa who proceed to build a little Baghdad in the town they've settled in. They revert once respectable parts of town into what can only be described as a medieval reflection of what life was once like in the middle east. Whole extended families all move into a one bedroom apartment. Their lack of hygiene soon spreads disease through their community. They refuse to speak the mother tongue of their adoptive country. In short, they do exactly what Alliebaba has described, they take whole neighbourhood back in time; and they expect everyone else to adapt around them; and if they don't, they envoke their human rights. For example, are you familiar with the part of London, made famous by Jack the Ripper, called Whitechapel? Well, it's now so overun by Islamic peasants that it's now locally referred to as 'BrownMosque'.

Aside from that...

Another (often) overlooked (incase of causing offense among muslims) reason westerners oppose muslim immigrants after 9/11, into what are universally aknowledged as Christian lands i.e United States, United Kingdom and western Europe (I'm an Atheist, but you can't deny the majority Christian influence on western society), is that these lands are being threatened by a group of people who whorship Allah. True, these are a minority amongst muslims, but this minority have a track record of attacking from within, after exploiting otherwise well intended immigration policies; so one can sympathise with those angry or suspicious that these muslim immigrants are or maybe laughing at their hosts behind their backs.

 

[AllieBaba]

Ropey's a mole?

And what's with the "bodecca" vs. "boedicca" thing??? No wonder I get freaked out about the identity of posters.

And what's with "Strollingbones" aka "bones" and "Bones" the new guy who lives in a moldy trailer?

 

[Foxfyre]

Ropey's a mole?

And what's with the "bodecca" vs. "boedicca" thing??? No wonder I get freaked out about the identity of posters.

And what's with "Strollingbones" aka "bones" and "Bones" the new guy who lives in a moldy trailer?

Ropey has idetified himself as a Jew practicing the Jewish religion and I've judged him to be a reasonable and decent sort.

Bodecea is strongly leftwing/liberal - Boedicca is a well informed conservative. No relation.

Also no relation between Strollingbones who is an institution at USMB and Bones, a relative newcomer. Different sexes. Different approach to things. Different people.

 

[Foxfyre]

Unfortunately, history shows you to be putting out bullshit.

When countries become Islamized, they step backwards in time. As you know.

Islamization is the antithesis to everything American, and the enemy of freedom, liberty and life.

Whilst I've disagreed with Alliebaba in the past, this is something I know I can comment on with more authority than most here on USMB.

As you know, the UK and the other rich nations the liberal European Union depends upon to fund their multi-cultural utopia, have all seen an undeniable influx of immigration from Islamic states. Unlike other immirants from other parts of the world, the muslim immigrants are largely peasants from the armpits of Asia and Africa who proceed to build a little Baghdad in the town they've settled in. They revert once respectable parts of town into what can only be described as a medieval reflection of what life was once like in the middle east. Whole extended families all move into a one bedroom apartment. Their lack of hygiene soon spreads disease through their community. They refuse to speak the mother tongue of their adoptive country. In short, they do exactly what Alliebaba has described, they take whole neighbourhood back in time; and they expect everyone else to adapt around them; and if they don't, they envoke their human rights. For example, are you familiar with the part of London, made famous by Jack the Ripper, called Whitechapel? Well, it's now so overun by Islamic peasants that it's now locally referred to as 'BrownMosque'.

Aside from that...

Another (often) overlooked (incase of causing offense among muslims) reason westerners oppose muslim immigrants after 9/11, into what are universally aknowledged as Christian lands i.e United States, United Kingdom and western Europe (I'm an Atheist, but you can't deny the majority Christian influence on western society), is that these lands are being threatened by a group of people who whorship Allah. True, these are a minority amongst muslims, but this minority have a track record of attacking from within, after exploiting otherwise well intended immigration policies; so one can sympathise with those angry or suspicious that these muslim immigrants are or maybe laughing at their hosts behind their backs.

I think Muslim's assault on Western Civilization is planned and is being at least in part orchestrated by those who intend the destruction of Western Civilization. I mean the USA and most of Europe is really fertile ground with policy and laws in place that include everybody and that accommodate Islamic traditions and beliefs. And it's so currently fashionably PC to be supportive and tolerant of Muslims and the Muslim religion even though some of the same people find it fashionable to be critical and scornful of Christians and Jews.

Didn't the UK more or less recently agree to allow the Muslims to circumvent some of the British court system and instead implement parts of Sharia law?

We see the pattern repeated again again.

Muslims in small numbers are respectable and lovable people.
As they become larger minority groups though, they invariably begin petitioning governments for more and more concessions to the Muslim faith--recognition of Muslim holy days, accommodations of the Muslim prayer schedule, accommodation for Muslim dietary taboos, etc. etc. etc.
And once they achieve a minority, in every place they have ever been, there is no acknoweldgement of unalienable rights, there is loss of at least some basic freedoms, and all the population is required to respect all or some of the edicts of Allah.

Non Muslim countries outside of Western Civilization are much less receptive and make it much more difficult for Islam to get a foothold to launch an attack from within.