Muslims are our friends but Islam is the enemy of Western Civilization?

[Sunni Man]

I wonder if Islam wants its people to know all its history and how much independent study of the Qu'ran and other religious texts are encouraged?

I would say, at this time, no.

You are wrong.

Muslims are very aware of Islams history; failures and success.

And independent study is the norm; not the exception.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

But nowhere is anybody's unalienable rights, property, freedoms, or opportunities hindered or threatened by Christians.

You sure about that?

Lord's Resistance Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not all who call themselves Christians are Christian. Not all who call themselves emmisaries of the Lord or the Holy Spirit are. The most terrible sin cited in the New Testament is to attribute or commit evil in the name of the Holy Spirit. And because I believe that it is by their fruit that we shall know them, I have no trouble saying that the LRA is not Christian and is anathema to all Christian teachings.

LRA are animists and sometimes Islamist

The LRA's ideology is disputed amongst academics.[23][25] While most academics and media outlets regard LRA as primarily a Christian militia,[4][5][6][7][8][9][10] the LRA reportedly evokes Acholi nationalism on occasion,[26] but the sincerity of this behavior is considered dubious by some observers.[27][28] During its brief alliance with the Muslim country of Sudan it also claimed to be Islamic as well, an apparent contradiction.[29]

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

This is not to say that every Muslim is our enemy. They are not.

This is not to say that every Muslim is focused on following the more militant content of the Qur’an, the Hadith, or Sufi texts. They aren’t.

This is not to say that many people of the Muslim faith have not been peace loving, model citizens, making significant contributions to society. They have been.

.

Al-Ghazali, a Sufi orthodox Muslim, and follower of the Shafi’i school of Islamic jurisprudence, wrote this about jihad war and the treatment of the vanquished non-Muslim dhimmi peoples, in the Wadjiz: [4]

[O]ne must go on jihad (i.e., warlike razzias or raids) at least once a year…one may use a catapult against them [non-Muslims] when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire to them and/or drown them…If a person of the Ahl al-Kitab [People of The Book – primarily Jews and Christians] is enslaved, his marriage is [automatically] revoked…One may cut down their trees…One must destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide…they may steal as much food as they need…


[T]he dhimmi is obliged not to mention Allah or His Apostle…Jews, Christians, and Majians must pay the jizya [poll tax on non-Muslims]…on offering up the jizya, the dhimmi must hang his head while the official takes hold of his beard and hits [thedhimmi] on the protruberant bone beneath his ear [i.e., the mandible]…

They are not permitted to ostentatiously display their wine or church bells…their houses may not be higher than the Muslim’s, no matter how low that is. The dhimmi may not ride an elegant horse or mule; he may ride a donkey only if the saddle [-work] is of wood. He may not walk on the good part of the road. They [the dhimmis] have to wear [an identifying] patch [on their clothing], even women, and even in the [public] baths…[dhimmis] must hold their tongue….

 

[Sunni Man]

And since you obviously think your way the more honorable one, it does call into question whether your 'literal' interpretation of the Qu-ran is allowed to be different from anybody else's 'literal' interpretation.

Unlike the Bible; which has many allegories, parables, and interpretations.

Which challenges the reader to figure out whether certain passages are to be taken literally or spiritually.

The Quran is very straight forward; in both language and content.

 

[Ropey]

I wonder if Islam wants its people to know all its history and how much independent study of the Qu'ran and other religious texts are encouraged?

I would say, at this time, no.

You are wrong.

Muslims are very aware of Islams history; failures and success.

And independent study is the norm; not the exception.

So says the Muslim convert who thinks all Jews and Homosexuals need to be rounded up and taken out of society. An independent study where all agree.

Your views of Islams modernity notwithstanding.

 

[gautama]

This is not to say that every Muslim is our enemy. They are not.

This is not to say that every Muslim is focused on following the more militant content of the Qur’an, the Hadith, or Sufi texts. They aren’t.

This is not to say that many people of the Muslim faith have not been peace loving, model citizens, making significant contributions to society. They have been.

.

Al-Ghazali, a Sufi orthodox Muslim, and follower of the Shafi’i school of Islamic jurisprudence, wrote this about jihad war and the treatment of the vanquished non-Muslim dhimmi peoples, in the Wadjiz: [4]

[O]ne must go on jihad (i.e., warlike razzias or raids) at least once a year…one may use a catapult against them [non-Muslims] when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire to them and/or drown them…If a person of the Ahl al-Kitab [People of The Book – primarily Jews and Christians] is enslaved, his marriage is [automatically] revoked…One may cut down their trees…One must destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide…they may steal as much food as they need…


[T]he dhimmi is obliged not to mention Allah or His Apostle…Jews, Christians, and Majians must pay the jizya [poll tax on non-Muslims]…on offering up the jizya, the dhimmi must hang his head while the official takes hold of his beard and hits [thedhimmi] on the protruberant bone beneath his ear [i.e., the mandible]…

They are not permitted to ostentatiously display their wine or church bells…their houses may not be higher than the Muslim’s, no matter how low that is. The dhimmi may not ride an elegant horse or mule; he may ride a donkey only if the saddle [-work] is of wood. He may not walk on the good part of the road. They [the dhimmis] have to wear [an identifying] patch [on their clothing], even women, and even in the [public] baths…[dhimmis] must hold their tongue….

Fitnah,

Thanks for another expose of how the fucking Muslims treat people belonging to a religion other than their own.

I say these arseholes should be given the same treatment of them as they do of us.......beginning with no mosques in America since churches, synagogues or temples are not allowed in the shithole Saudi Arabia.

And, oh yes........we dhimmis should levy additional taxes on these Muslim arseholes, not let these shitheads drive cars of a later model than our benighted ghetto folk, etc.

And, as to where the dhimmis have to hang their head, while they are grabbed by the beard and smacked around.....I say, we don't stoop down to their level, we should just bitch/slap 'em, and kick them in the arse......that's the American way.

By the way, Fitnah......didja know that Fitnah basically means "disbeliever, or, one who worships other than Allah ?

 

[Sunni Man]

Al-Ghazali, a Sufi orthodox Muslim, and follower of the Shafi’i school of Islamic jurisprudence, wrote this about jihad war and the treatment of the vanquished non-Muslim dhimmi peoples, in the Wadjiz: [4]
[O]ne must go on jihad (i.e., warlike razzias or raids) at least once a year…one may use a catapult against them [non-Muslims] when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire to them and/or drown them…If a person of the Ahl al-Kitab [People of The Book – primarily Jews and Christians] is enslaved, his marriage is [automatically] revoked…One may cut down their trees…One must destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide…they may steal as much food as they need…
[T]he dhimmi is obliged not to mention Allah or His Apostle…Jews, Christians, and Majians must pay the jizya [poll tax on non-Muslims]…on offering up the jizya, the dhimmi must hang his head while the official takes hold of his beard and hits [thedhimmi] on the protruberant bone beneath his ear [i.e., the mandible]…
They are not permitted to ostentatiously display their wine or church bells…their houses may not be higher than the Muslim’s, no matter how low that is. The dhimmi may not ride an elegant horse or mule; he may ride a donkey only if the saddle [-work] is of wood. He may not walk on the good part of the road. They [the dhimmis] have to wear [an identifying] patch [on their clothing], even women, and even in the [public] baths…[dhimmis] must hold their tongue….

Mr. Fitnuts why didn't you inform the readers here that the muslim man you are quoting, Al-Ghazali, lived almost a thousand years ago?

It was a different time and different culture in which he lived.

Heck, I can google up Jewish and Christian scholars from the same time period who basically wrote equally harsh things about each other.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Al-Ghazali, a Sufi orthodox Muslim, and follower of the Shafi’i school of Islamic jurisprudence, wrote this about jihad war and the treatment of the vanquished non-Muslim dhimmi peoples, in the Wadjiz: [4]
[O]ne must go on jihad (i.e., warlike razzias or raids) at least once a year…one may use a catapult against them [non-Muslims] when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire to them and/or drown them…If a person of the Ahl al-Kitab [People of The Book – primarily Jews and Christians] is enslaved, his marriage is [automatically] revoked…One may cut down their trees…One must destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide…they may steal as much food as they need…
[T]he dhimmi is obliged not to mention Allah or His Apostle…Jews, Christians, and Majians must pay the jizya [poll tax on non-Muslims]…on offering up the jizya, the dhimmi must hang his head while the official takes hold of his beard and hits [thedhimmi] on the protruberant bone beneath his ear [i.e., the mandible]…
They are not permitted to ostentatiously display their wine or church bells…their houses may not be higher than the Muslim’s, no matter how low that is. The dhimmi may not ride an elegant horse or mule; he may ride a donkey only if the saddle [-work] is of wood. He may not walk on the good part of the road. They [the dhimmis] have to wear [an identifying] patch [on their clothing], even women, and even in the [public] baths…[dhimmis] must hold their tongue….

Mr. Fitnuts why didn't you inform the readers here that the muslim man you are quoting, Al-Ghazali, lived almost a thousand years ago?

It was a different time and different culture in which he lived.

Heck, I can google up Jewish and Christian scholars from the same time period who basically wrote equally harsh things about each other.

Al-Ghazali, a Sufi orthodox Muslim died 900 years ago. His works still shape sufi thought to this day.

 

[gautama]

Al-Ghazali, a Sufi orthodox Muslim, and follower of the Shafi’i school of Islamic jurisprudence, wrote this about jihad war and the treatment of the vanquished non-Muslim dhimmi peoples, in the Wadjiz: [4]
[O]ne must go on jihad (i.e., warlike razzias or raids) at least once a year…one may use a catapult against them [non-Muslims] when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire to them and/or drown them…If a person of the Ahl al-Kitab [People of The Book – primarily Jews and Christians] is enslaved, his marriage is [automatically] revoked…One may cut down their trees…One must destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide…they may steal as much food as they need…
[T]he dhimmi is obliged not to mention Allah or His Apostle…Jews, Christians, and Majians must pay the jizya [poll tax on non-Muslims]…on offering up the jizya, the dhimmi must hang his head while the official takes hold of his beard and hits [thedhimmi] on the protruberant bone beneath his ear [i.e., the mandible]…
They are not permitted to ostentatiously display their wine or church bells…their houses may not be higher than the Muslim’s, no matter how low that is. The dhimmi may not ride an elegant horse or mule; he may ride a donkey only if the saddle [-work] is of wood. He may not walk on the good part of the road. They [the dhimmis] have to wear [an identifying] patch [on their clothing], even women, and even in the [public] baths…[dhimmis] must hold their tongue….

Mr. Fitnuts why didn't you inform the readers here that the muslim man you are quoting, Al-Ghazali, lived almost a thousand years ago?

It was a different time and different culture in which he lived.

Heck, I can google up Jewish and Christian scholars from the same time period who basically wrote equally harsh things about each other.

Phoni-Baloni-Sunni,

The difference is that IN THIS TIME PERIOD you fucking Muslims are still exhibiting your UNBRIDLED HATRED promulgated by that Psycho "Prophet" of yours on the WHOLE WORLD from the NUMERO UNO Agenda of Obliterating the Nation of Israel, 9/11 and yapping about America being the GREAT SATAN, causing all sorts of Religious/Poltical Problems throughout the world with suicidal bombings.......and STILL in this seemingly Enlightened Age where ALL the Religions WITHOUT EXCEPTION are benevolent.......YOURS, you fucking Muslim.....IS NOT !!!

To this day, you Muslim fuckers do not allow a church, synagogue, or a temple built in Mecca or Medina.....or, for that matter in Saudi Arabia, and probably some other Muslim countries......or abuse the "dhimmis".....

YET, you fucking Muslim Arseholes yowl, howl, and whine about how the Western Civilization is mistreating you !!!!

THE GALL OF YOU MUSLIM FUCKERS IS BEYOND DESCRIPTION !!!

 

[Sunni Man]

Al-Ghazali, a Sufi orthodox Muslim died 900 years ago. His works still shape sufi thought to this day.

Sufism represents a very small percentage of muslims in the world.

Plus, there are dozens of sects and branches within Sufism.

Both Sunni and Shia muslims for the most part.

View Sufi's as goofy at best; and mainly as misguided heretics.

 

[gautama]

Al-Ghazali, a Sufi orthodox Muslim died 900 years ago. His works still shape sufi thought to this day.

Sufism represents a very small percentage of muslims in the world.

Plus, there are dozens of sects and branches within Sufism.

Both Sunni and Shia muslims for the most part.

View Sufi's as goofy at best; and mainly as misguided heretics.

Phoni-Baloni-Sunni......you are in denial.

Sufi, Shmoofi ..... you fucking Muslims are beyond "delusional".

You may be functional.....but you are "religiously INSANE" !!!!

 

[Ropey]

Mr. Fitnuts

Somehow Sunni Man thinks that by calling you names he will create and environment conducive to discussion.

That's the same logic that has him removing the worlds Jewry and Homosexuals from the world of people.

Sunni_Man logic.

 

[007]

I think Muslim's assault on Western Civilization is planned and is being at least in part orchestrated by those who intend the destruction of Western Civilization.

Foxfyre you claim to have muslims that are personal friends.

How many of them are part of a "planned assault" on Western Civilization?

How many does it take?

We've learned not many... to kill thousands of innocent people in barbarous, cowardly acts of cold blooded murder.

Why don't you be a good muslim and publicly condemn all muslims that kill, murder and maim in the name of islamic jihad?

 

[007]

Mr. Fitnuts

Somehow Sunni Man thinks that by calling you names he will create and environment conducive to discussion.

That's the same logic that has him removing the worlds Jewry and Homosexuals from the world of people.

Sunni_Man logic.

*MUSLIM* logic.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Al-Ghazali, a Sufi orthodox Muslim died 900 years ago. His works still shape sufi thought to this day.

Sufism represents a very small percentage of muslims in the world.

Plus, there are dozens of sects and branches within Sufism.

Both Sunni and Shia muslims for the most part.

View Sufi's as goofy at best; and mainly as misguided heretics.

The OP brought up sufism as a peaceful Islamic sect I clarified the picture based on orthodox sufi thought.

 

[Ropey]

Why don't you be a good muslim and publicly condemn all muslims that kill, murder and maim in the name of islamic jihad?

Sunni Man is a self proclaimed moderate Muslim. The extremists are the ones that do those things.

The moderates seem to be the ones that minimize what the extremist does and uses moderate terms to soften the effect.

That's the only difference I see. When pushed to respond with what they think, it's the same thing that the extremists do.

He wants all Jews gone. So do they. He wants the worlds Jews moved to a patrolled (for their protection and so they do not 'get away'. (His words and links available) island.

They want them gone too.

So, I put forward that the difference between a Moderate and Convert to Islam and an extremist Islamist seems very minor.

 

[Foxfyre]

Al-Ghazali, a Sufi orthodox Muslim, and follower of the Shafi’i school of Islamic jurisprudence, wrote this about jihad war and the treatment of the vanquished non-Muslim dhimmi peoples, in the Wadjiz: [4]
[O]ne must go on jihad (i.e., warlike razzias or raids) at least once a year…one may use a catapult against them [non-Muslims] when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire to them and/or drown them…If a person of the Ahl al-Kitab [People of The Book – primarily Jews and Christians] is enslaved, his marriage is [automatically] revoked…One may cut down their trees…One must destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide…they may steal as much food as they need…
[T]he dhimmi is obliged not to mention Allah or His Apostle…Jews, Christians, and Majians must pay the jizya [poll tax on non-Muslims]…on offering up the jizya, the dhimmi must hang his head while the official takes hold of his beard and hits [thedhimmi] on the protruberant bone beneath his ear [i.e., the mandible]…
They are not permitted to ostentatiously display their wine or church bells…their houses may not be higher than the Muslim’s, no matter how low that is. The dhimmi may not ride an elegant horse or mule; he may ride a donkey only if the saddle [-work] is of wood. He may not walk on the good part of the road. They [the dhimmis] have to wear [an identifying] patch [on their clothing], even women, and even in the [public] baths…[dhimmis] must hold their tongue….

Mr. Fitnuts why didn't you inform the readers here that the muslim man you are quoting, Al-Ghazali, lived almost a thousand years ago?

It was a different time and different culture in which he lived.

Heck, I can google up Jewish and Christian scholars from the same time period who basically wrote equally harsh things about each other.

Well if the Qu'ran is read literally--i.e.all reading with the same interpretation--as you say, and it is perfectly obvious to all who read it, then would it not be the same Qu-ran written 1400 years ago? And are there not passages in the same Qu-ran that support what that fellow 1000 years ago wrote? If I can take the Qu'ran literally as you say, then is there not plenty of license there authorizing you to kill and/or take from me, an unbelieving infidel? Will you not be rewarded by Allah if you do?

 

[High_Gravity]

You guys can get mad at me but I really don't think anyone should take the Bible or the Quran literally and look to it everyday for instruction.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Al-Ghazali, a Sufi orthodox Muslim, and follower of the Shafi’i school of Islamic jurisprudence, wrote this about jihad war and the treatment of the vanquished non-Muslim dhimmi peoples, in the Wadjiz: [4]
[O]ne must go on jihad (i.e., warlike razzias or raids) at least once a year…one may use a catapult against them [non-Muslims] when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire to them and/or drown them…If a person of the Ahl al-Kitab [People of The Book – primarily Jews and Christians] is enslaved, his marriage is [automatically] revoked…One may cut down their trees…One must destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide…they may steal as much food as they need…
[T]he dhimmi is obliged not to mention Allah or His Apostle…Jews, Christians, and Majians must pay the jizya [poll tax on non-Muslims]…on offering up the jizya, the dhimmi must hang his head while the official takes hold of his beard and hits [thedhimmi] on the protruberant bone beneath his ear [i.e., the mandible]…
They are not permitted to ostentatiously display their wine or church bells…their houses may not be higher than the Muslim’s, no matter how low that is. The dhimmi may not ride an elegant horse or mule; he may ride a donkey only if the saddle [-work] is of wood. He may not walk on the good part of the road. They [the dhimmis] have to wear [an identifying] patch [on their clothing], even women, and even in the [public] baths…[dhimmis] must hold their tongue….

Mr. Fitnuts why didn't you inform the readers here that the muslim man you are quoting, Al-Ghazali, lived almost a thousand years ago?

It was a different time and different culture in which he lived.

Heck, I can google up Jewish and Christian scholars from the same time period who basically wrote equally harsh things about each other.

Well if the Qu'ran is read literally--i.e.all reading with the same interpretation--as you say, and it is perfectly obvious to all who read it, then would it not be the same Qu-ran written 1400 years ago? And are there not passages in the same Qu-ran that support what that fellow 1000 years ago wrote? If I can take the Qu'ran literally as you say, then is there not plenty of license there authorizing you to kill and/or take from me, an unbelieving infidel? Will you not be rewarded by Allah if you do?

I always think it best to know the answer before asking the question interesting enough we revisit Al Ghazali who was just mentioned.

Al-Ghazali doors ijtihad - Google Search

 

[Ropey]

You guys can get mad at me but I really don't think anyone should take the Bible or the Quran literally and look to it everyday for instruction.

I believe that deep down inside every one of us is the understanding of right and wrong.

This is where our everyday instruction regarding our involvement with others is birthed. Culture and religions notwithstanding, it is our personal choice on how to treat other people.

That's what we will be judged on. Our choices. I have fought for Israel. I have killed for Israel.

NO human being knows whether it was right or wrong for me personally. I do know this, it feels wrong to kill.

I can put it no other way. Even if necessary, it feels wrong. I have tasted the odour of death. It is a sickening thing, whether Jew or Arab.

So, calling for the end of a people is a choice. A personal choice. Now others can put that personal choice as an attachment to other things, but the end result is that the personal choice remains.

And I will (I believe) be judged. There are those who enjoy killing. I have met some of them. Jews and Arabs.

They are separated (by choice) from their connection to G-d. It is not a thing to enjoy and those who call for the expulsion of a people are lost to humanity.

Why would I get mad at you for your view? It is arguable and understandable. Death in great numbers has been laid at the feet of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Your stand is too arguable for me to disagree with as a personal choice.